AFA Yes DOH NO!

[1Conehead]

That is a very simplistic answer to a very complicated issue. Once the ink is dry and all details have been worked out I as most of the good people at DAL will except it and move on. This is not a discussion of me wanting some advantage over any NWA f/a, but I disagree that time served is time served. This is two airlines merging and everyone does have a right to thier opinions. What happened to AFA giving me a seat at the table? However to vote in AFA and merging with NWA there is no seat at the table of seniority intergration.

merge




Main Entry: merge
Pronunciation: \ˈmərj\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): merged; merg·ing
Etymology: Latin mergere; akin to Sanskrit majjati he dives
Date: 1636
transitive verb
1archaic : to plunge or engulf in something : immerse
2: to cause to combine, unite, or coalesce
3: to blend gradually by stages that blur distinctions
intransitive verb
1: to become combined into one
2: to blend or come together without abrupt change <merging traffic>

One company one list.
Again time served =time served
prepare to be assimilated resistence is futile.

 

[Kev3188]

This is not a discussion of me wanting some advantage over any NWA f/a...

Your last few posts say otherwise.

 

[bagboy]

There is an old saying that all politics are personal--i.e., people vote their own self-interest first. Well, so is the merger of seniority lists.
The reality is that the people who trumpet that DOH is the only fair way to do mergers are usually the people who won't be affected very much by such a formula.

I do not know how the cards would fall for me here on the ramp at NWA but seniority is all I have. I will not let anyone at NW or DL take that away.

 

[bagboy]

So you beleive that DOH is always fair no matter what. Say company A hired a lot of people when times were good say hypothetically 10 years ago and company B has been hiring a few people all along being more responsible (not the boom and bust style), people at A are more senior becuase their airline is older. A lot of employees were hired at once years ago but no hiring since. Company B would be at a disadvantage because thier f/a's were hired at a more staggared pace. So in this situation only DOH matters ? No two mergers are ever the same, you have to take each with its unique circumstances into account. That is why DOH is not always the most fair. Ask America West, they saved US air and now they face going to the bottom because of DOH. Also DAL pilots didnt think DOH was fair for them so why is it fair for the f/a's?

You and the pilots can go hug it out together. DOH is it. You want Asia, DOH is it.

 

[yoyodyne]

You and the pilots can go hug it out together. DOH is it. You want Asia, DOH is it.

Ahh, the DOH crying game is on.... Let's reward the carrier that wanted to be bought with open arms, here here, take my line by all means, I know your CEO up in Mini sold you down the river, sure, I don't mind TUE, WED off on second, I was getting tired of morning shift with weekends off anyways. Good Fn luck buddies....

 

[Blackdog]

I can never figure out why anybody hired after someone else should ever be placed higher on a seniority list. We all work for an airline and doing the same job just wearing a different uniform. Whether you're a ramper, F/A, Reservationist, Pilot, etc. Its no one's fault or blame that 2 companys decide to combine. Someone give me a reasonable answer. You were hired 1st; you'r senior to me....I was hired 1st; I'm senior to you...Its just plain fair!

 

[Yankeestu]

As a 19 year FA with the Delta, My seniority would have furlough biting at my heals if they out sourced 75% of the combined carriers international flying if DOH was the formula, but with a contract that saves our jobs, we all win in that regard.

DOH is fair for all the reasons that have already been mentioned. Not having a contract would be the true threat to all of our flying.

The junior FA's in NYC at DAL that are holding international and want to keep it that way were not here for the Pan Am experience. Here is what happened. We all of a sudden had a tremendous amount of intl flying out of JFK. We hired off the street and where did they send them? NYC. I had been on reserve for 4 years and saw newly hired FA flying to Rome. It took several months but slowly people started transferring to NYC to hold better trips and the newly hired FA's hated it.
They would talk loudly in the lounge during our sign ins amongst themselves about how they were being displaced from the International routes. Within a year, I could no longer hold the desired trips due to the mass transfer to the desired flying in NY. I transfered back to Boston.

I am based in Boston, the trips are horrid. Low time, working a zillion days a month. In the last several months we have lost most of our base...why? Because they are all transfering to NYC for a better quality of life. It happens all the time when the flying is rotten and a-days go up to 20 plus years, you start looking for a better deal and NYC is it for many. That is what our seniority affords us.

My point, what you hold today, may not be what you hold tomorrow. Fact of life.

Mark my words, without a contract, you wont lose your international trips to someone senior to you, you will lose them to out sourcing. Focus on the real issue and not on someone senior to you bumping you out of what you currently hold, either me or a new DAL FA that came over in this merger.

What if United and DAL had merged and kept the UAL name? How would you feel about DOH then?
Would the ratio ranking or stapling our seniority to the bottom then seem fair?

 

[cooper43]

As a 19 year FA with the Delta, My seniority would have furlough biting at my heals if they out sourced 75% of the combined carriers international flying if DOH was the formula, but with a contract that saves our jobs, we all win in that regard.

DOH is fair for all the reasons that have already been mentioned. Not having a contract would be the true threat to all of our flying.

The junior FA's in NYC at DAL that are holding international and want to keep it that way were not here for the Pan Am experience. Here is what happened. We all of a sudden had a tremendous amount of intl flying out of JFK. We hired off the street and where did they send them? NYC. I had been on reserve for 4 years and saw newly hired FA flying to Rome. It took several months but slowly people started transferring to NYC to hold better trips and the newly hired FA's hated it.
They would talk loudly in the lounge during our sign ins amongst themselves about how they were being displaced from the International routes. Within a year, I could no longer hold the desired trips due to the mass transfer to the desired flying in NY. I transfered back to Boston.

I am based in Boston, the trips are horrid. Low time, working a zillion days a month. In the last several months we have lost most of our base...why? Because they are all transfering to NYC for a better quality of life. It happens all the time when the flying is rotten and a-days go up to 20 plus years, you start looking for a better deal and NYC is it for many. That is what our seniority affords us.

My point, what you hold today, may not be what you hold tomorrow. Fact of life.

Mark my words, without a contract, you wont lose your international trips to someone senior to you, you will lose them to out sourcing. Focus on the real issue and not on someone senior to you bumping you out of what you currently hold, either me or a new DAL FA that came over in this merger.

What if United and DAL had merged and kept the UAL name? How would you feel about DOH then?
Would the ratio ranking or stapling our seniority to the bottom then seem fair?

No one is advocating stapling anyone to the bottom. However with DOH that is what happened to America west due to them being a newer airline. I would be willing to vote for AFA or another union if they didnt have automatic DOH without reviewing to see if it was fair.

 

[Blackdog]

No one is advocating stapling anyone to the bottom. However with DOH that is what happened to America west due to them being a newer airline. I would be willing to vote for AFA or another union if they didnt have automatic DOH without reviewing to see if it was fair.

OK Coop...if you read my previous post above, give me a way of combining seniorities and then please defend your rationale. This is not a put down in any sort of way. I'm just looking to see why you think in any situatiuon that DOH is not the most fair way of integrating 2 seniority list. I assume you are based in JFK, well NWA has a JFK base also. Until they took away the Tokyo non-stop 2 years ago it was a moderately senior base. Now a lot of those F/As have transfered out but the base still exists. If they are to combine those 2 bases into one larger one, why should they be penalized and given less superior flying or days-off choices? Again I'm just looking for a plausible explaination as why DOH is not fair?

 

[yoyodyne]

OK Coop...if you read my previous post above, give me a way of combining seniorities and then please defend your rationale. This is not a put down in any sort of way. I'm just looking to see why you think in any situatiuon that DOH is not the most fair way of integrating 2 seniority list. I assume you are based in JFK, well NWA has a JFK base also. Until they took away the Tokyo non-stop 2 years ago it was a moderately senior base. Now a lot of those F/As have transfered out but the base still exists. If they are to combine those 2 bases into one larger one, why should they be penalized and given less superior flying or days-off choices? Again I'm just looking for a plausible explaination as why DOH is not fair?

Here is how you integrate two groups when one carrier ACQUIRES another one:

American Airlines Style

He he

 

[Kev3188]

Here is how you integrate two groups when one carrier ACQUIRES another one:

Classy.

What an embarrassment you must be to your coworkers.

 

[BigBangTheory]

Here is how you integrate two groups when one carrier ACQUIRES another one:

American Airlines Style

He he

That's hilarious!

 

[Danny Campbell]

yoyodyne:

The days of "stapling" a group to the bottom of a seniority list are over. It can't happen anymore -- since the new legislation in the Omnibus bill was signed into law.

So, what remains, is a GUARANTEE that the case will be heard in arbitration if the groups can not agree -- unless both groups belong to the same union and the union has a policy (like DOH).

So, instead of a staple gun, you should post a graphic of a roulette table....because that is what Delta FAs are advocating. Somehow they are believing that they are going to come out of an arbitration with something better than DOH. Unfortunately, that gamble will most likely produce a result that is going to be MUCH WORSE than DOH. Sadly, however, once it is done, they will be lamenting for YEARS after about how they SHOULD HAVE locked in DOH when they had the chance. In almost every situation I know, the more senior group comes out of seniority arbitration with anger and resentment for the outcome. But, we have to live with the choices we make.

 

[FWAAA]

Misinformation is a big problem, and one big source of that misinformation is the newly-formed USAPA. Its founders actually believe that an arbitration decision on seniority integration (where both groups were members of the same union) can be overturned by voting in a new union. They're very likely wrong, but hope springs eternal when you're fighting over a shrinking pie.

The AFA - isn't that the union voted in by the NW FAs? The ones that had excuse after excuse for not taking any self-help measures until after a federal judge had ruled they couldn't strike?

The airlines are likely no more afraid of the AFA than they are that other really scary union - the TWU.

 

[jimntx]

yoyodyne:

The days of "stapling" a group to the bottom of a seniority list are over. It can't happen anymore -- since the new legislation in the Omnibus bill was signed into law.

Mr. Campbell, as an active union person YOU should quit spreading misinformation regarding Federal law. Sen. McCaskill's amendment did not and does not prohibit "stapling."

The amendment states that two unionized groups must negotiate in good faith the merger of their seniority lists. If the groups are unable to come to agreement, then binding arbitration is required. There is NOTHING in the amendment which would prevent the arbitrator from ruling that the most senior person in one group should be below the most junior person of the other group--i.e., stapling. Granted, such an outcome is highly unlikely, but do not go around telling people that it can't happen anymore due to the law. The law says no such thing.