Aircraft maint issues

[Vortilon]

NWA did not go out of business, all airlines were in a tough spot at that time period. In the end those scabs went on to work at Delta vote down union representation and I hear they got an average of $14k bonus last year all while making $51 an hour. What a bunch of morons!!!!

Don't kid yourself the replacement mechs were a success. NWA is just merged with DAL as did UAL and continental, AA-USair-America West, Alaska-Virgin

We are all replaceable, don't buy into that rhetoric that we are not.

That really depends on what kind of timeline you're basing the definition of success on. Isn't funny how soon people forget how rocky things were for the first couple of years. I saw it first hand, I haven't forgot.

Replaceable in small numbers maybe. There just isn't that many qualified A&Ps available nowadays. Especially ones that can pass a background check, and drug screen. Add to that, finding qualified AMTs that are willing to relocate to high cost of living areas, working nites, weekends, and holidays further erodes the chances of enticing new talent.

Good luck with that though.

 

[Vortilon]

I

I enjoy just reading the thread when you guys stay focused on the present and the future and not obsess over the past.

Particularly when it’s not even your own past.

If it pertains to aircraft maintenance, then it is by proxy part of my past. It did affect family members, and friends as well. Still pisses me off.

 

[B737 driver]

The company offer from NWA at the time, was a lose lose proposition. Given the same circumstances, I really doubt any other union would have fared any better! Now AA is essentially wanting the same thing for us at AA. Eliminate facilities maintenance, a huge reduction in stores headcount, all in conjunction with reducing overhaul headcount. Only difference is now they are wanting to do it through attrition; as opposed to, NWA's more draconian approach.

So do you guys vote for the ones there, or worry about the ones that aren't there. The longer it goes the harder it gets.

 

[WeAAsles]

If it pertains to aircraft maintenance, then it is by proxy part of my past. It did affect family members, and friends as well. Still pisses me off.

Fair enough.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Really? Why the fk should the manuals be dumbed down for you to understand?

I don't need to understand them, you do. I just think in general manuals should be written to be as easy as possible to understand. That is not a slight against the mechanics in any way. I feel that way about manuals in general.

The mechanics are extremely smart and can read and understand, so why are you asking for a dumb down of the manuals?

While I was at TULE the mechanics installed part of an entry door backwards. I am dead serious. Despite them being experienced, intelligent people using an approved aircraft maintenance manual they installed part of the door backwards. The dock had to call in engineering because they could not figure out why the door would not close.

Now I don't think of those men as incompetent or fools. I worked with them all the time and I know they were good mechanics. But their interpretation of the source material was obviously flawed. Simplification and clarity may have helped.

Are you not comprehending the manuals info for you to do your job??

Yes, but our jobs are very different. When you install a part you install it the same way every time as per the manual. They may upgrade or modify things from time to time but you are pretty much just doing the same thing over and over again. In computer networking you have to be adaptive because you are not dealing with a rigid manual but varied customers. Understanding manuals will only take you so far. Same thing when I worked in electrical. You can know equations and electrical code but at the end of the day it is up to you to design a workable solution for your customer using available technology and staying within a budget.

You are looking like a freaking moron in the least, wow.

Maybe so, but I can honestly say I have never had an engineer tell me I have installed something backwards.

Now let me ask you, why are you getting so butt hurt over my opinion that if possible they should simplify the manuals? It's not like I have any expertise or authority to implement simplification. Do you see simplified manuals as a threat to your job or something? Afraid if they simplify them too much some third world mechanic is going to take your job? Seriously, what is your problem?

 

[swamt]

I don't need to understand them, you do. I just think in general manuals should be written to be as easy as possible to understand. That is not a slight against the mechanics in any way. I feel that way about manuals in general.

While I was at TULE the mechanics installed part of an entry door backwards. I am dead serious. Despite them being experienced, intelligent people using an approved aircraft maintenance manual they installed part of the door backwards. The dock had to call in engineering because they could not figure out why the door would not close.

Now I don't think of those men as incompetent or fools. I worked with them all the time and I know they were good mechanics. But their interpretation of the source material was obviously flawed. Simplification and clarity may have helped.

Yes, but our jobs are very different. When you install a part you install it the same way every time as per the manual. They may upgrade or modify things from time to time but you are pretty much just doing the same thing over and over again. In computer networking you have to be adaptive because you are not dealing with a rigid manual but varied customers. Understanding manuals will only take you so far. Same thing when I worked in electrical. You can know equations and electrical code but at the end of the day it is up to you to design a workable solution for your customer using available technology and staying within a budget.

Maybe so, but I can honestly say I have never had an engineer tell me I have installed something backwards.

Now let me ask you, why are you getting so butt hurt over my opinion that if possible they should simplify the manuals? It's not like I have any expertise or authority to implement simplification. Do you see simplified manuals as a threat to your job or something? Afraid if they simplify them too much some third world mechanic is going to take your job? Seriously, what is your problem?

This does not even deserve a response. Incredible.
Not butt hurt at all, just amazed that someone needs the manuals to be dumbed down so they can understand them better. First time I have ever heard that one. Think about it. Your comment was so stupid and was deserving of my response.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

This does not even deserve a response. Incredible.
Not butt hurt at all, just amazed that someone needs the manuals to be dumbed down so they can understand them better. First time I have ever heard that one. Think about it. Your comment was so stupid and was deserving of my response.

Again I am not an aircraft mechanic. I don't NEED to understand your manuals because I have not and will not ever use them.

I could not care less about how "stupid" you think my comment was. I don't need your validation.

The whole point of making a manual is to provide approved step by step instructions resulting in consistency and efficiency. The secondary goal is to remove thinking from the tasks as much as possible to minimize mistakes (aka human error).

You may be able to read a manual and follow it but it is very obvious you don't know a damn thing about writing for other people.

This is my final post on this subject. Apply some Preparation H on and move on. If you need clarity on how to apply it......... just read the manual.

 

[Kev3188]

I think you’re both right. Any manual should emphasize consistency, and ease of interpretation across a wide range of people.

At the same time, I bristle any time my own training panders to the lowest common denominator.

 

[bigjets]

I enjoy just reading the thread when you guys stay focused on the present and the future and not obsess over the past.

Particularly when it’s not even your own past.

It’s important to remember the past so we don’t shoot ourselves in the foot again.

 

[aanoob]

I think you’re both right. Any manual should emphasize consistency, and ease of interpretation across a wide range of people.

At the same time, I bristle any time my own training panders to the lowest common denominator.

That, and act as liability protection to the OEM. The manuals are written to give step by step instructions so that 1: the aircraft is repaired in the method which the manufacturer intends it to work and 2: in the easiest instructions possible so that the mechanic can do the work and, regardless of what happens to the aircraft, the OEM will be legally protected in the event of an incident/accident. Engineering writes the info, other engineers review it, tech pubs writes it, legal reviews it, then it is published.

There are so many references in each ch/sec that are written solely for the purpose of CYA to the OEM that anyone operating IAW on the line should take a major delay. Just the time it takes to print each section and locate the required tooling should drive an OTS, not to mention actually perform the work.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

That, and act as liability protection to the OEM.

That is a good point.

 

[bigjets]

It was a success in another way: Another airline union BUSTED where the government declined to get involved. Remember Eastern! Can you say UNION BUSTING?
And ladies and gentleman DO NOT THINK THIS CAN'T OR WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN at either SWA or AAL.
And no matter what MIke Quill wannabe Samuelsen spews out through his bullhorn, we could very well wind up like the NWA AMFA mechanics.
And don't think that because AAL is way bigger than NWA was at the time the government will step in. There is no love lost for unions in this country anymore, especially where they refuse to change with the times.

One thing to know, the contract that the IAM at Eastern turned down and went on strike for, was a better deal then what the mechs at AA were working under at that time. The 80s were a tough time for airlines just as the early 2000s were.

 

[bigjets]

That really depends on what kind of timeline you're basing the definition of success on. Isn't funny how soon people forget how rocky things were for the first couple of years. I saw it first hand, I haven't forgot.

Replaceable in small numbers maybe. There just isn't that many qualified A&Ps available nowadays. Especially ones that can pass a background check, and drug screen. Add to that, finding qualified AMTs that are willing to relocate to high cost of living areas, working nites, weekends, and holidays further erodes the chances of enticing new talent.

Good luck with that though.

Ut oh, looks like we have another Bob Owens, there aren’t enough mechanics to replace us, there aren’t enough places to do our OH, they can’t possibly replace us WE ARE TO IMPORTANT!
I look forward to your financial reports on what AA can afford. Nothing better then having a beer in your basement playing airline CFO.

Say we do go on strike, do you think everybody at DFW would walk? I don’t. Do you think the mechs working at AAR would like to make $50 and hour. The guys from eagle not to mention all the guys at A&P schools, Spirit. Etc

This is why we need to remember the past. One thing I see a lot of especially from the senior guys who haven’t looked for or have been out of work. They don’t look at what jobs are out there and what they are offering. Even under this cruddy contract, it’s still better then most. Same with our health ins. it’s not the best but not the worst either.

 

[B737 driver]

Ut oh, looks like we have another Bob Owens, there aren’t enough mechanics to replace us, there aren’t enough places to do our OH, they can’t possibly replace us WE ARE TO IMPORTANT!
I look forward to your financial reports on what AA can afford. Nothing better then having a beer in your basement playing airline CFO.

Say we do go on strike, do you think everybody at DFW would walk? I don’t. Do you think the mechs working at AAR would like to make $50 and hour. The guys from eagle not to mention all the guys at A&P schools, Spirit. Etc

This is why we need to remember the past. One thing I see a lot of especially from the senior guys who haven’t looked for or have been out of work. They don’t look at what jobs are out there and what they are offering. Even under this cruddy contract, it’s still better then most. Same with our health ins. it’s not the best but not the worst either.

Well both AMFA and SWA signed off AIP, so I will keep my fingers crossed.

 

[WeAAsles]

Well both AMFA and SWA signed off AIP, so I will keep my fingers crossed.

Congratulations driver. I absolutely hope that this one fits the bill for you guys.

http://www.amfanational.org/?zone=/unionactive/view_article.cfm&HomeID=747565