ALPA Thread 1/18-1/25 ALL ALPA Discussed Here

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These are your own fellow pilots, representing your peers. So please don't attempt one of your trite dismissals that this is purely ALPA National talking. Or is it yet another case of "brainwashing?" Or maybe you are not in the majority after all. Maybe your USAPA drive is faltering. Maybe the 3000+ cards that were signed were mostly an expression of dissatisfaction, but do not actually represent 3000 pilots willing to vote for USAPA.

Your MEC has attempted to explore every avenue to overturn the binding arbitration to no avail. I guess in a way one can respect them for trying. But with no viable options remaining they are trying a different approach. One that has a better chance of success than your decert attempt. And it is clear to even a casual observer that while PHL may be the largest single council, they do not represent the opinion of the majority.

You posted a letter from ALPA, which is for ALPA, which is very concerned and will attempt anything to stop something that will make them go back to the line and work for a living.

You are an ALPA shill. Click here for the explination of your frequent posts on this board
 
You posted a letter from ALPA, which is for ALPA, which is very concerned and will attempt anything to stop something that will make them go back to the line and work for a living.

You are an ALPA shill. Click here for the explination of your frequent posts on this board
Now, now, nostradamus. You are the predictable one. I thought you were going to avoid the whole "ALPA National controls all" routine.

As usual you throw names around and call people things like "ALPA shill" when you have no constructive or rational response. How about responding to the facts in my last post that you are part of a vocal minority, and that along with the PHL reps you are losing control of your revolution to calmer minds?
 
Now, now, nostradamus. You are the predictable one. I thought you were going to avoid the whole "ALPA National controls all" routine.

As usual you throw names around and call people things like "ALPA shill" when you have no constructive or rational response. How about responding to the facts in my last post that you are part of a vocal minority, and that along with the PHL reps you are losing control of your revolution to calmer minds?

Did you read my post, I did respond to it. My response to your "facts" is that they were provided by ALPA. Are those facts or an opinion of the self interest group?


Nostradamus response to 767jetz.
"You posted a letter from ALPA, which is for ALPA, which is very concerned and will attempt anything to stop something that will make them go back to the line and work for a living."

I also responded by calling you a shill, which is a person that is selling a line of BS that is in their self interest.
 
Now, now, nostradamus. You are the predictable one. I thought you were going to avoid the whole "ALPA National controls all" routine.
What is predictable about you is that most of your topics either whistle in the dark about UAL problems or worse, badmouth companies in trouble then you salivate over their impending demise and talk about how Ual can take advantage of the spoils of a troubled company. You sound like a cowardly pirate. I would hate to be someone in a box at a funeral your were at because you would justify taking their boots off because you would feel that they no longer need them and did not deserve them in the first place because of your imperialistic thoughts.

767 topics

The most troubling post you had about enjoying the spoils had to do with your company (United Airlines ) taking out extra government loan money due to the 911 tragedy. You rationalized it would be perfectly ok to use tax payers and victims of 911 money to further your greed.

post of 767jetz, buzzard circling of the 911 victims tragedy

You are a greedy sick individual sir.
 
Did you read my post, I did respond to it. My response to your "facts" is that they were provided by ALPA. Are those facts or an opinion of the self interest group?
Actually you are wrong again. Those facts come from Jack Stephan, US Airways MEC Chairman. Yes that's right folks! Those facts come from a USAirways pilot, not ALPA. You may not like it, and you may prefer to live in denial, but the majority of USAirways pilots do not share your view of the world.

Nice try though, spinmaster. :lol:
 
Actually you are wrong again. Those facts come from Jack Stephan, US Airways MEC Chairman. Yes that's right folks! Those facts come from a USAirways pilot, not ALPA. You may not like it, and you may prefer to live in denial, but the majority of USAirways pilots do not share your view of the world.

Nice try though, spinmaster. :lol:

"US Airways ALPA MEC Chairman's Message January 19, 2008"
 
Did anyone get a chance to attend the love fest in CLT today?


recycledogfoodjp5.jpg
 
FYFellow pilot,

As your USAPA volunteers sat down to craft the USAPA Constitution, it was always envisioned that it would be posted for comment and revision as the pilots offered their opinions and ideas. Having just posted the Constitution, along with the first in our series "How The USAPA Constitution Is Better," we could not be more thrilled with the considered input the pilots have offered.

As a direct result of that input, we have added a paragraph to Article IV, Section 3, that quite firmly puts the pilots in control of the voting and decision process. We have included that paragraph below, in context and emphasized, so that you can fully understand the positive effect this single paragraph has on the Roll Call vote.

We find this to be the very best example of USAPA in action - you talked, we listened, and most importantly, we acted. "At USAPA, the pilots decide. Take control of your future."

Thank you for your continuing support.

Follows is the revised language. We anticipate posting an updated PDF version of the Constitution shortly.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Understanding the USAPA Constitution
"The How's and Why's of Better Representation"

Part One - Representation and Roll Call (rev 1)

This is the first in a multi-part series on the USAPA Constitution. In this issue we focus on representational structure and the Roll Call. Before we go any further, it is important for pilots to know that Roll Call as the pilots know it does not exist in the USAPA Constitution.

Many volunteers have spent, so far, literally thousands of hours of their personal time to build a new union for you and your fellow pilots; one that will finally put the pilots back in control of their own futures. As USAPA moved closer to bringing a representational election to the US Airways pilot group, there was heated debate among the officers and volunteers as to what kind of representational structure to propose in the Constitution and By-Laws (CBL). This debate surrounded the failures of representation of our current bargaining agent and the desire to bring something better to the new union and the pilots. Some of the new ideas debated included block representation, seniority block representation, block voting and elimination of the Roll Call vote, amongst others. Nothing was excluded from consideration.

Regretfully, demographics showed that there was likelihood that such a system could give the appearance of favoring the East and, as such a system is untried, our legal team felt it was very likely that we would face legal challenges. Radical changes in representational structure by USAPA would open doors to those who might file Duty of Fair Representation (DFR) lawsuits claiming that the new representational structure unfairly disadvantaged certain members. After much consideration, the USAPA leadership team adopted the proposed CBL in an effort to minimize potential lawsuits and also to provide the representation that the pilots need and desire. With enough on our plate as it is, the very difficult decision was made to use a more “tried and true†system, smoothing off the rough edges as well as we could. The choice was to fall back to a system paralleling that of the APA, tested and proven over a 40 year period, or use an untried system that could imperil the very existence of USAPA. We would have been remiss to choose otherwise.

So, this decision having been made, we were now decided on a representational system. At this point a discussion is in order with regards to the three types of votes that can be cast by a representative body:

1. Voice Vote: the classic, “Aye†or “Nayâ€. There is no record of the tally and the Chair calls the outcome. The idea is, one representative, one vote, the majority (of the representatives present), wins. This is the most common type of vote and arguably, not really democratic, since a representative of say 50 pilots, has the same leverage as one who represents the will of 1,000 Line Pilots.

2. Division: A tally of the outcome is recorded. The outcome; for example, “the motion carries, 8-Ayes and 6-Nays.†- becomes a part of the permanent record. There is an argument that a list (by name) of which representatives voted, and which way, should be permanently recorded.

Still, one notices that there is no proportional representation here. In other words, if the representatives of two or three small crew bases form a coalition, their collective votes, which still represent a minority of the pilots they represent, can override the expressed will of the single, 1,000 pilot crew base.

3. Roll Call: in this style of vote, a representative, whose pilot constituency is large, calls upon the Chairman to tally the number of pilots, represented by each of the members voting.

In effect, each pilot-representative speaks for the number of pilots in his crew base. When the pilot representing 1,000 pilots votes, he votes with the voices of his 1,000 Line Pilots. When the pilot representing 110 pilots votes, he votes with the voices of his 110 Line Pilots.

The Roll Call vote was designed to bring in the elements of the House of Representatives by allowing a population vote. Using a real-world example - without any ability to Roll Call vote on an issue, small bases (such as BOS with 141 pilots, LGA with 103 pilots and DCA with 279 pilots) would be able to control the agenda and the votes of the two other largest bases, CLT and PHL. In a straight senatorial vote, the 523 pilots from BOS, LGA, and DCA combined could control the MEC (known as the BPR or Board of Pilot Representatives, under USAPA) while the 2,277 pilots from PHL and CLT are out-voted. In this example a system such as this would not survive a court challenge. A Duty of Fair Representation (DFR) lawsuit would almost certainly prevail in a situation where it could be proven that 523 pilots could outvote a number over 4 times as large. This is not the definition of democracy.

To recap, having decided upon a more traditional representational structure, one can see that it must include the Roll Call vote. How then to mitigate the negative effects of the Roll Call? We fell back on the one principle that goes to the heart of USAPA, “Let The Pilots Decide.†Quite simply, in the event Roll Call is used, the issue goes to the pilots for ratification. Thus, in the end it is the pilots who decide.

Below follows the relevant text from the Constitution (comments and emphasis added):

Article IV Pilot Board of Representatives, section 3, paragraph (B) as follows:

Roll call voting (division of the house) shall be permitted only for votes taken to approve or reject basic collective bargaining agreements and interim amendments thereto; setting parameters for collective bargaining; agreements on affiliation or merger with another labor organization; agreements arising from a merger of, or successor transactions involving, the employer or its parent (including seniority integration agreements); and amendments to the Constitution and Bylaws. On a roll call vote, each member of the Board shall be entitled to vote fifty percent (50%) of the active members in good standing at his domicile provided that;

1. The representative from a domicile having one hundred (100) or less members shall be entitled to one (1) vote for each active member in good standing at his domicile, and

2. For domiciles having one thousand (1000) or more members, each representative shall be entitled to vote one third (1/3) of the active members in good standing at the domicile.

Fractional votes will be counted. In the event that a senatorial vote is over-ridden by a roll call vote so as to prevent the membership from voting on any matter that would otherwise be subject to a ratification vote under the provisions of this Constitution and Bylaws, the matter shall be submitted to the pilot group for a membership vote. The result of such vote shall determine the final disposition of the matter.

As you can see above, please note that USAPA limits the use of the Roll Call vote to the following:

(1) Approve or reject a basic working agreement. This is backed up by pilot ratification

(2) Interim agreements thereto; e.g., Side Letters. This is backed up by pilot ratification

(3) Bargaining parameters and goals

(4) Agreements on affiliation or merger with another labor organization. This is backed up by pilot ratification.

(5) Agreements arising from a merger or successor transactions involving, the employer or its parent, (including seniority integration agreements) This is backed up by pilot ratification

(6) Amendments to the constitution and bylaws. This is backed up by pilot ratification.

Note that of the only 6 conditions in which Roll Call voting is allowed, 5 are backed up by pilot ratification. Pilot ratification is the circuit breaker to this issue and it follows almost all Roll Call votes. The only situation in which Roll Call can be used and not backed up by pilot ratification is the setting of bargaining parameters. The reason for this is due to the nature of debate during the setting of bargaining parameters; were Roll Call to be used it could paralyze the process due to multiple ratifications, possible even in a single day.

Finally, anytime a roll call vote over-rides a senatorial vote, the issue is sent to the pilots for ratification.

So, as you can now see, Roll Call as the pilots know it does not exist in the USAPA Constitution, just one of the many advantages of the USAPA Constitution over that of the current Collective Bargaining Agent.

Once elected and with participation from all pilots this system can be altered if the pilots so desire into a seniority block representation system or other type of representation system that doesn’t involve the Roll Call vote, again the beauty of USAPA’s Constitution, wherein the pilots decide.

For a legal opinion on this subject, click here to read USAPA attorney Scott Peterson’s comments.

Watch for our next article in this series. Upcoming issues will discuss:

Election of Officers by the membership
Recall of Officers by the membership
Compensation of Officers
Limitation of expenses
Requirement for professional negotiator
Constraints on negotiations, including notification and authorization
Guaranteed pilot ratification
If you have any questions or comments on this or any other subjects, please send an email to [email protected]
 
Did anyone get a chance to attend the love fest in CLT today?

It was a FABULOUS and successful show....for USAPA!!

The stream of pilots through the terminal were almost all sporting Gold and Blue lanyards (sorry, hard to attribute "gold" to a cloth yellow as far as I can tell, but I guess they are more gold looking than yellow). There were a few that didn't but still sent in cards and supported the effort. Had a discussion with only one East pilot that was against it but he didn't even have the knowledge of what the transition agreement was or how it worked. ALPA attorneys did. I told him to go talk to the ALPA attorneys about it then come back to me to continue the discussion.

The meeting room in the business center had ALPA staff and attorneys all over. Chris Bebee was there. It was reported to someone that he said if US Airways leaves ALPA, ALPA is in serious trouble(understatement, he used stronger words, I understand). Personally spoke to Bruce York, one of ALPA staff negotiating lawyer. He was hired back at ALPA after leaving them for several years. He said ALPA offered him vacation at "new hire" rate and he said he "negotiated" his rate back to what it would be as if he never left. In short, York never really left ALPA. I guess you get what you negotiate.

I spoke only to him about the arbitrator ruling. ALPA is not admitting publicly of the ramifications of USAPA and the list but they DO admit that if a contract with the nic award cannot be voted in by the East then the only way to get ANY joint contract is to reopen Section 22 seniority, confirming what Kirby already knows. In short, if you don't vote for it, you don't get it. York tried to find out what monetary compensation is necessary to overcome Nicolau objections. I said pay EVERY East pilot to retire early now with full pay until normal retirement age. Of course he laughed at that, and of course so did I. The point here was that the compensation curves and numbers he was showing on the computer screen mean't nothing. He then asked me whether there could be a fence/implimentation time frame that would be acceptable to implimentation of the award.

I said there were TWO faults with that.

First, ALPA put itself into a corner by stating EMPHATICALLY that Nicolau is final and binding. If this were so, the AWA MEC and ALPA national could be sued by their own pilots for reopening the issue because the award contains NO restrictions of any kind and to do that in of itself changes the terms of the award and secondly, fences and retrictions are UNACCEPTABLE because they are only as strong as the next merger, which usually deletes fences and retrictions historically.

JR Baker was there, but I didn't speak with him. A few others did, however, and let me just say this....the CLT f/o rep told me I should go over and tell him about whether I thought the East would vote for a contract with the Nicolau award in it and I was about too, but he looked like he was sulking in the corner and I decided not to disturb him. Those who did later, however, described him as, well, unable to convince anyone the merits of his argument. In short, his presence was essentially more harmful than good on ALPA's behalf, from what was conveyed to me.

Cohen was there, as well as Jack Stephen. I had NOTHING to say to either of them as their aspirations and callings to higher offices were above my paygrade so I elected to abstain from conversation. Doug Mowery was there and he conveyed to all of us at the last fourth quarter MEC meeting when Jeff Small was there that the award has no effect outside of ALPA. Jeff has been called on the carpet by national now and is not allowed to talk about it.

With the upcoming legal battle that is about to ensue if USAPA gets in Jeff could be called to testify.

But he said that absent ALPA, collective bargaining provisions can ALWAYS be negotiated and renegotiated....including seniority. This position was extremely downplayed in the meeting but the message conveyed to the ALPA representatives in that room was that it is WIDELY understood by the East pilots and we're not as "naive" and ignorant as they would have the press to believe.

In short, it was sad that AWA crews walking by didn't take the opportunity to talk to us NOR go into the ALPA meeting and talk to the ALPA reps. There was no lynch mob mentality at all and EVERYONE from boths sides conducted themselves professionally and respectfully.

As an aside note, the AWA MEC now has an ALPA funded war chest close to the tune of $300,000 (maybe, if EXCL doesn't take most of it backthat they claim it would be difficult and perhaps impractical to not pay off debts to ALPA first, which currently exceed $300,000) and have essentially retained Mr. Robert Bush as secondary merger counsel to their pilots if USAPA wins.

USAPA's funds and war chest are considerable at this moment and rising. Current and long term funds well assured at this point. Legal representation is also secured.

This year will be a GREAT YEAR...and the East pilots fully expect to be involved.

FLAME ON!
 
This year will be a GREAT YEAR...and the East pilots fully expect to be involved.

FLAME ON!


Interesting comment. I take it from your above post that you think merging of two pilot groups is about declaring a winner, or gaining the spoils of war. In reality, the merger process requires understanding and a commitment to principles to foster and ensure a working relationship between two diverse pilot groups afterward. The imporance of cooperation following the integration marks the success or failure for all pilots in a combined pilot group. It is evident you (plural) are not interested in the effects of your actions and have little understanding of the consequences to your airline career. Forgive me, I just cannot share your happiness in declaring fellow pilots as enemy #1.
 
First, ALPA put itself into a corner by stating EMPHATICALLY that Nicolau is final and binding.
It is. With the force of law nonetheless.
If this were so, the AWA MEC and ALPA national could be sued by their own pilots for reopening the issue because the award contains NO restrictions of any kind and to do that in of itself changes the terms of the award and secondly, fences and retrictions are UNACCEPTABLE because they are only as strong as the next merger, which usually deletes fences and retrictions historically.
Once again, you're reasoning is upside down. It's called a waiver - a knowing and voluntary relinquishments of a right. Both elements of a waiver would be satisfied through the establishment of the steering committee, not to mention if there was a majority vote on the isse. But you're broaching an important issue for all West pilots to understand - the ONLY way to fully prosecute our remedies under the law is for usapa to get in. The record shows that ALPA has always favored the East and they'd do anything to hang the West out to dry. The reason that hasn't happened is because the West holds all the legal cards. But ALPA can tiptoe through the minefield by cajoling the West and "exploring mutually beneficial solutions," an absurd notion given that what we're talking about is a zero sum game. ALPA has to be careful but it is possible for them to maneuver through the JNC in order to placate the East without raising a serious risk of breach. I don't think many West pilots understand this. Despite the consternation from their own lawyers, ALPA has explored every avenue to mitigate Nicolau. They want this to go away. The problem is that the rights of the West pilots are so clear and so irrefutable. The ONLY possible way around is, like you unwittingly suggested, would be through the JNC with a ratification on the West - the ratification operating as a waiver. So contrary to what you would like to infer, the opposite is actually true. ALPA does have some wiggle room to mitigate Nicolau so long as the West consents and the West MEC has legal authority to speak for all West pilots. ALPA needs to proceed with extreme caution because courts do go behind the face of the waiver to examine the circumstances of the waiver. Trouble is, even the AWA MEC has been quite resolved in not opening this door and I suspect the reason is that everyone knows what will happen once the East is given a foothold - you'll try to take everything. What I take from the last year is that the West has demonstrated uncommon common sense.
JR Baker was there, but I didn't speak with him.
You didn't miss anything.
A few others did, however, and let me just say this....the CLT f/o rep told me I should go over and tell him about whether I thought the East would vote for a contract with the Nicolau award in it and I was about too, but he looked like he was sulking in the corner and I decided not to disturb him. Those who did later, however, described him as, well, unable to convince anyone the merits of his argument. In short, his presence was essentially more harmful than good on ALPA's behalf, from what was conveyed to me.
Good to hear. My fear was that the West pilots would believe the ALPA rhetoric and mitigate Nic through the JNC. This would be insane in light of our rights - rights which will vest immediately against usapa if it becomes the successor in interest.
In short, it was sad that AWA crews walking by didn't take the opportunity to talk to us NOR go into the ALPA meeting and tlak to the ALPA reps.
What's there to say, other than "You guys never learn!" You litigated in one forum and judging from the collective anger, that didn't go very well. That despite both parties being on equal legal ground. Now you're embarking on a course which will obviouly lead to another litigation except this time the law overwhelming disadvatages you. Let me give you some advice: judges don't care for anger or emotion in their courtrooms and to date, anger and emotion is all you have supporting your cause (who will ever forget the bussing to Herndon and 1960s style sit down protest!). There isn't one shred of legal authority which supports your goals. As the Abrams letter succinctly points out, usapa's cited authority is not only inapplicable but udermines your position. Furthermore, neither you or any other usapa poster nor has your counsel even addressed the fact that the particular provision at issue here was decided through a binding arbitration. Even if O'Neill and Rakestraw supported your position instead of undermining it, then you'd still have to address the arbitration because that is one fact that distinguishes this case with those two.
There was no lynch mob mentality at all and EVERYONE from boths sides conducted themselves professionally and respectfully.
Until the next time you lose. . .
This year will be a GREAT YEAR...and the East pilots fully expect to be involved.
It's always good when you have a winning case, which is an understatement of the year for the West. You, however, must have a twisted sense of "good."

Any response yet from usapa to the Abrams letter? When does the usapa legal tap dance begin? True to the East heritage, you're promising far beyond what you can deliver. Legally, you're promising a fantasy.
 
In short, it was sad that AWA crews walking by didn't take the opportunity to talk to us


I would have thought the circus music would have attracted them, only to be disappointed to find nothing but elephant waste and a large dustpan. USAPA seems like an odd name for an elephant.

As an aside note, the AWA MEC now has an ALPA funded war chest close to the tune of $300,000 (maybe, if EXCL doesn't take most of it backthat they claim it would be difficult and perhaps impractical to not pay off debts to ALPA first, which currently exceed $300,000) and have essentially retained Mr. Robert Bush as secondary merger counsel to their pilots if USAPA wins.

USAPA's funds and war chest are considerable at this moment and rising. Current and long term funds well assured at this point. Legal representation is also secured.

Since you have dollar figures on the ALPA money, why not U-SAPs? Should this be kept a hush-hush secret? Being poor is nothing to be ashamed of. Being poor and promising to provide for everyone certainly is though.

And why does U-SAPs want to hang the junior people out to dry by unnecessarily exposing them to the risk of furlough? Why deny the US pilots the protection that comes with a combined contract?

DOES USAPA REALLY WANT TO THROW THE JUNIOR PILOTS UNDER THE BUS TO GUARANTEE SENIOR F/O'S UPGRADES??
 
I would have thought the circus music would have attracted them, only to be disappointed to find nothing but elephant waste and a large dustpan. USAPA seems like an odd name for an elephant.



Since you have dollar figures on the ALPA money, why not U-SAPs? Should this be kept a hush-hush secret? Being poor is nothing to be ashamed of. Being poor and promising to provide for everyone certainly is though.

And why does U-SAPs want to hang the junior people out to dry by unnecessarily exposing them to the risk of furlough? Why deny the US pilots the protection that comes with a combined contract?

DOES USAPA REALLY WANT TO THROW THE JUNIOR PILOTS UNDER THE BUS TO GUARANTEE SENIOR F/O'S UPGRADES??

GUESS WE'LL FIND OUT WITH A VOTE!
 
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