ALPA Thread 1/18-1/25 ALL ALPA Discussed Here

[nostradamus]

I'm talking intent to act...big difference from asking. A lot of people have been asking us to throw you guys a bone and we probably would have had you been slightly reasonable. But Kirby sure as hell can't demand and he knows it. Just like ALPA can't demand or anyone else. Finally, this was from our own MEC and not Kirby's words. Try again. Surely if Kirby is as onboard with this as your esteemed usap cheerleaders seem to imply, then there's got to be plenty of evidence to proffer. Again, the request is that: "Kirby can force the West pilots to negotiate." It's really a simple request and a very reasonable one in light of the fact that your entire game plan rests on it.

The request was

"I'll settle for a contextual argument. I guarantee you won't find any such thing because we would have already known about it had Kirby said anything remotely close to that."

Your witness counsel.

 

[PHLBUS]

I was there @ the meeting in CLT. I agree with you in regards to JR Baker, though that could be a whole other thread, lol. I'm not sure I agree with your take on the meeting (end-of-alpa), except that it was civilized and there were great and open discussions going on. I agree that "we're not as "naive" and ignorant as they would have the press to believe" and I believe that's why so many of our pilots were there, becasue this will be solved with intelligent minds and well thought out arguments on both sides, not with out-of-minds emotions. We have lost in the past because we have let our emotions take over....PHLBUS

 

[end_of_alpa]

They've triggered a mechanical process, that's it. That process looks solely to numbers. They have the majority so usap is certainly a possibility. But the law judges actions and it judges those actions for their substantive effects - not numbers. This is not idealism, but a fact of modern jurisprudence. If numbers and only numbers mattered, Jim Crow laws would still apply south of the Mason Dixon line. We're way past the time where "majority" rules meant unchecked trouncing upon a minority.

If usasps get in and IF they try to undermine Nicolau in any way, they're toast. Legally, they're toast and if what's-his-face the frustrated F/O brainchild of usapa had an ounce of credibility, he'd outline how usap will accomplish what it desires and he'll do it without relying on a vastly outdated game plan of brute force by a majority. Today we're hearing from two of the preeminent usap cheerleaders who are suggesting that Kirby will succumb to the overwhelming resolve of the East. Oh God [roll eyes]. That just doesn't fly in this day and age.

Normal is defined as what EVERYONE ELSE is and YOU'RE NOT! Majority votes ALWAYS trump minority wishes ALMOST all the time, except for constitutional violations, especially under RLA. They call that DEMOCRACY (RLA is about the purest form of Democracy you can find.)! You can't force a vote at the point of a gun in this country. You're not what I would call "within the accepted norm." So we'll see what the majority vote is.

This isn't a civil rights discrimination issue like YOU think it is Dr. King; comparing years of service to years of service does NOT trigger DFR violations like race, religion, sex, AGE, infirmity, fraud, negligence.....OOPS!?!

I forgot...LET'S VOTE!

 

[end_of_alpa]

I was there @ the meeting in CLT. I agree with you in regards to JR Baker, though that could be a whole other thread, lol. I'm not sure I agree with your take on the meeting (end-of-alpa), except that it was civilized and there were great and open discussions going on. I agree that "we're not as "naive" and ignorant as they would have the press to believe" and I believe that's why so many of our pilots were there, becasue this will be solved with intelligent minds and well thought out arguments on both sides, not with out-of-minds emotions. We have lost in the past because we have let our emotions take over....PHLBUS

The showing there, from ALL US Airways pilots was very respectable and extremely well balanced attitude wise. But the salient point at that meeting was simply this..."How much money will it take to get the votes necessary to ratify an agreement with the Nicolau award in it on the East side."

I was informed by one of the MEC officers in the know that the latest Wilson poll was wasted money spent on the answer to the previous question. FYI.

 

[Piedmont1984]

They've triggered a mechanical process, that's it. That process looks solely to numbers. They have the majority so usap is certainly a possibility. But the law judges actions and it judges those actions for their substantive effects - not numbers. This is not idealism, but a fact of modern jurisprudence. If numbers and only numbers mattered, Jim Crow laws would still apply south of the Mason Dixon line. We're way past the time where "majority" rules meant unchecked trouncing upon a minority.

If usasps get in and IF they try to undermine Nicolau in any way, they're toast. Legally, they're toast and if what's-his-face the frustrated F/O brainchild of usapa had an ounce of credibility, he'd outline how usap will accomplish what it desires and he'll do it without relying on a vastly outdated game plan of brute force by a majority. Today we're hearing from two of the preeminent usap cheerleaders who are suggesting that Kirby will succumb to the overwhelming resolve of the East. Oh God [roll eyes]. That just doesn't fly in this day and age.

Jim Crow Laws - good example - as well as women's franchise, child labor, gay rights, slavery, etc. etc. The point being, where the law of the land conflicts with a just and compelling principle, in the end the principle prevails and the law becomes a footnote in history.

I see the same graveyard in store for a union merger policy which ignores length of service.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Kirby, you're right. Nothing can touch Nic. The ONLY avenue would be through a knowing and voluntary waiver by the West to shift some of the West benefits to the East. It's the doctrine of waiver. THAT's IT! And the very fact that a lot of pressure has been put on the West from the East MEC, ALPA National, the company, illustrates that nobody can "force" a renegotiation. The only way Nic gets mitigated is through a West relinquishment. That's the fact.

"Doctrine of waiver" doesn't apply here under RLA and same craft or class. YOU nor I are negotiating or signing the agreement. The collective bargaining agent and company does that. WE ONLY VOTE!

I'll tell you what,

Let's vote!

 

[luvn737s]

The only way Nic gets mitigated is through a West relinquishment. That's the fact.

So what would compel the west to offer such relinquishment? The east argues that such things as fences, raises,et.al, are at the whim of the economy and can go away, but seniority is forever (or is seniority at the whim of the economy and can go away with any contract? They flip-flop so much who can keep it straight?)

Just so we're clear, USAPA is offering the west pilots to be, for all intents and purposes, stapled to the bottom of the list and to provide the east an 1800-pilot furlough buffer in exchange for the ability to be based in Philly flying F/O on a widebody international or capt. on a stretched RJ for not much more money than they make now living in sunny Phoenix.

Did I miss some other juicy offer Bradford is dangling?

OR- Is USAPA only interested in ousting ALPA and retaining the status quo without any real desire to negotiate a combined contract. Have they publicly come out and stated that they do not desire to lead the pilot group as a whole (rather into one) and merely wish to cement the senior F/O's upgrade possibilities while subjecting the junior F/O's to furlough, something which would be less likely under a joint contract.

WHY IS USAPA DEDICATED ONLY TO SENIOR EAST F/O UPGRADES AT THE EXPENSE OF ALL OTHER MEMBERS ? Will they ever answer this question?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

I was there @ the meeting in CLT. I agree with you in regards to JR Baker, though that could be a whole other thread, lol. I'm not sure I agree with your take on the meeting (end-of-alpa), except that it was civilized and there were great and open discussions going on. I agree that "we're not as "naive" and ignorant as they would have the press to believe" and I believe that's why so many of our pilots were there, becasue this will be solved with intelligent minds and well thought out arguments on both sides, not with out-of-minds emotions. We have lost in the past because we have let our emotions take over....PHLBUS

Was at the meeting also. I wouldn't characterize all the little sub groups as being totally without emotion and civilized. Really have to wonder about Rich Alter. If you can't get the point across, yell a little louder and closer. Problem was/is, he still didn't make his case. Very defensive IMO. Wonder why?

What was most telling, I saw Herndon people deflecting tough questions to the local people and local people deflecting to the Herndon people. "It's not my fault crowd" in one room. Witnessing this display just drove home my premise all along. The ALPA structure is geared to covering each other. Whereby the hope is the issue will just fade away. At least under USAPA the buck stops with the elected leadership.

Lets Vote

 

[AAA73Pilot]

WHY IS USAPA DEDICATED ONLY TO SENIOR EAST F/O UPGRADES AT THE EXPENSE OF ALL OTHER MEMBERS ? Will they ever answer this question?

Answer: We're not.

Lets Vote and find out.

 

[Phoenix]

Read Prater's letter to the MEC's (dated 22 January). Did I misread it or did he just effectively approve $1.8 Million to the MEC's in order to save ALPA?

That looks like a lot of money to beat a onelawyer volunteer shoestring outfit. Oddly it appears that the MEC's would be persuaded by this but what's in it for the voters? Ooops! Large amounts of money to the MEC to oppose the voter's right to vote? How is that gonna go over?

 

[luvn737s]

Lets Vote and find out.

Are you saying, "Let's not wait for the answers to tough questions. If we wait, emotion (the JET-A of USAPA) will diminish and we'll actually have to answer questions we'd just as soon weren't asked."

Let's make an informed vote.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Are you saying, "Let's not wait for the answers to tough questions.

The answers are out there, all you have to do is look for them beyond this forum. You wouldn't believe me even if I had all the answers anyway. Better yet why don't you ask USAPA directly? Here is the link to send your questions:

[email protected]

Lets Vote

 

[CactusFlyr]

Answer: We're not.

Lets Vote and find out.

Its not up for a vote. ALPA/USAPA is up for a vote. Then the fun starts, either way it goes.

 

[nostradamus]

What kind of copying machine is USAPA considering? I recommend any of the Panosonic models.

 

[end_of_alpa]

What kind of copying machine is USAPA considering? I recommend any of the Panosonic models.

I've had OK luck with the HP multifunction...however, I did hear the Panasonics are pretty good. What would you recommend for a phone system and do you think we could get the company to get great deals on laptops so we could have our jepps instead of the brain bag?