Not so much the mechanics selling out, as the International dictating priorities. Then attempting to make headcount levels our highest priority by presenting the issue as if we were willing to accept the worst pay and benefits to maintain the headcount levels. Then,whenever we point out our pay and benefit disparity, we get the obligatory response, "but you have the highest AMT to A/C ratio in the industry". The TWU doesn't care about the quality of what they negotiate for AMTs, only about the quantity of AMTs to help fund their bloated payroll at the International.
AMFA Organizing Drive to Replace Association
- Thread starter TWU informer
- Start date
- Status
Not so much the mechanics selling out, as the International dictating priorities. Then attempting to make headcount levels our highest priority by presenting the issue as if we were willing to accept the worst pay and benefits to maintain the headcount levels. Then,whenever we point out our pay and benefit disparity, we get the obligatory response, "but you have the highest AMT to A/C ratio in the industry". The TWU doesn't care about the quality of what they negotiate for AMTs, only about the quantity of AMTs to help fund their bloated payroll at the International.
Tim Nelson
Veteran
You are a association pollyanna, by default. Anyone who is undecided is really a tool trolling for the association.
Dude, just vote for the association. Nobody will convince you of anything else since you put 0 value on your voice and rights.
Tim Nelson
Veteran
Its not going to matter because the mechanics seem pretty unified and solid in fighting for a voice now.
As far as fleet, it really needs to decide if it wants the ibew, uswa, carpenters, laborers, or independent. Makes no sense to keep a double union. After the mechanics secure a voice, fleet needs to decide.
Tim Nelson
Veteran
+1
Actually, both the twu and iam need to leave the industry because their structure limits progress.
OP
- Nov 4, 2003
- 7,550
- 3,767
Tim Nelson
Veteran
Things have deteriorated even more since DS was in this video.
I think the association is really exposed since it is extremely unpopular.
The twu hosed all their members as well but dumping them in the association but the association itself has little to no support.
Tim Nelson
Veteran
Please put this letter up on all key websites.
After 5 years, Sito agrees with management to arbitration for a flight attendant group. The second group he has hosed this year.
You have no voice and arbitration can happen at american as well. In fact, its expected.
After 5 years, Sito agrees with management to arbitration for a flight attendant group. The second group he has hosed this year.
You have no voice and arbitration can happen at american as well. In fact, its expected.
No sir! The union has sold out the membership for the "save jobs over pay" for decades. And after the pay came, the jobs still went away. Great job TWU at AA for decades. Try again there Lu Lu...
La Li Lu Le Lo
Veteran
- May 29, 2010
- 7,377
- 2,666
Yes THEY (the UNION) did push that but YOU (the mechanics) voted to accept those contracts.
That is not news to me. I am fully aware. That is why I have been saying on here for years that mechanics should prioritize pay and benefits over headcount. You want to protect your class, craft, and compensation you are going to have to be a bit more selfish, an unfortunate fact of life. Worry about you, not anyone else. That may not seem very UNION like but it will certainly result in more compensation and make the job more of a value to the employee, which of course is the goal, isn't it?
There was no "try", no attempt, I truly believe what I said. That was not an attempt at manipulation just the truth from my perspective. You can blame TWU all you want but at some point you are going to have to admit, at least to yourself, that part of the reason mechanics are in this situation is because they succumbed to fear tactics and voted in bad contracts to save headcount.
You know it's true.
You can dislike my comments all you want but I will say this, I say what I truly believe unfiltered even if it is unpopular.
I hope you achieve your goals. Do it with focus, clarity, and purpose. Don't get distracted by "coat riding" and past issues. Put that out of your mind and work the solution not the problem. Frankly I think you guys fail because you get mired in the unimportant, pointless, and futile, such as accusing Fleet of "riding your coattails", making disparaging comments about title 2, and complaining about all you have lost with the Association.
FOCUS.
Last edited:
SkydrolJunkie
Senior
- Mar 16, 2006
- 275
- 72
Are you now a politician cause you do a lot of flip-flopping?
First you call us selfish for wanting to ditch the "bus drivers" and "fleet service" union, then you turn around and tell us we need to be more selfish.
WTH?
Wow! You are a bit lost. I'm already represented by AMFA.
I never once voted to save jobs over pay and benefits. I also never once road any coattails or any other group rode our coattails.
You must have me confused with someone else.
La Li Lu Le Lo
Veteran
- May 29, 2010
- 7,377
- 2,666
No, what I said is it does no good to focus on "bus drivers" and "fleet service". You need to focus on your GOAL, not on what your problems are. There is no point and no gain from alienating another title group.
That is why I said work the solution not the problem.
When you focus on the problem all the time you don't come across as people of change you come across as petty whiners.
Focusing on problems does nothing but distract.
If you can't understand that then I don't know what else to say.
As far as your contract...... yes you absolutely need to be selfish. Being selfish actually has a long term positive effect for labor because it results in higher compensation for future employees, even if there are less of them.
It's a question of do you want more employees (which really only benefits American Airlines and the UNION not labor) or do you want the people doing the job to have a higher standard of living, even if they have to do more work (less employees equal a larger work load) to get it? I mean after all they don't pay you for your labor they pay you for your time.
I don't know your personal history. All I know is you are a mechanic on an airline forum under the American Airlines section. I also was not directing that specifically at you but American Airline mechanics in general. That is why I said YOU (the mechanics) in the post. I was trying to communicate that was not directed at you but American Airlines mechanics in general, I guess my efforts were futile. I expected too much on your part. Perhaps next time I will use pretty colors.
If you are not an American Airlines mechanic why are you here? It can only to be to push an agenda, which I assume is to spread AMFA's influence.
I am here because I am interested in the title one contract because my wife is title one at TULE.
Tim Nelson
Veteran
Heard that the Association plan is to announce a TA this month, vote in January, then get the NMB to recertify the TWU with Mechanics, and IAM with Fleet.
That would be a cluster but would bar any raid for two years if enough cards are not filed 30 days after a recertification. I myself can delay any recertification, like Peterson did the first time, but eventually the NMB will most likely side with the TWU and IAM and Company. That would drag things out until maybe March. Then a 30 day count to intervene. Maybe as late as April. Get those cards signed quick.
That would be a cluster but would bar any raid for two years if enough cards are not filed 30 days after a recertification. I myself can delay any recertification, like Peterson did the first time, but eventually the NMB will most likely side with the TWU and IAM and Company. That would drag things out until maybe March. Then a 30 day count to intervene. Maybe as late as April. Get those cards signed quick.
OP
- Nov 4, 2003
- 7,550
- 3,767
- Thread Starter
- #255
Industrial Union vs Craft Union
(This is not about the past, it is about the future)
I often read the Internet Social Media (Facebook and Airline Forum), pages and watch the discussions and often emotional arguments that take place between those that support AMFA and those that support the TWU and IAM. These discussions always focus on the past. “Remember what happened at Northwest with AMFA” the Industrial Union supporter says. “What about TWU and IAM at Eastern and Pan American?” the AMFA supporter says. Then they start arguing about the pay, work rules, scope, and benefits of the past contracts, each trying to claim that the Union they support is the best. The emotions begin to run high, and then the name calling and insults start. I am convinced that in most cases, each person is extremely dogmatic regarding their beliefs and have no intention of being open minded and listening to opposing views, or changing their minds.
The truth is that since the Airline Deregulation Act became federal law in 1978, there is no Union or Work Group that succeeded in preventing the Concessions, Bankruptcies, and Consolidation. So the arguments trying to claim one Union fared better than another is meaningless. The various Unions and work groups in the Airline Industry, only took different paths to failure. Some took concessions for jobs, some took headcount loss to keep pay and benefits, and some went to labor strikes. If you look honestly at the history, there wasn’t a winning philosophy, not with Pilots, Flight Attendants, or various Mechanic and Related Unions. Not one Union or workgroup prevented going backwards. All Airline employees suffered one way or the other.
The most interesting aspect of the internet discussions is that nobody is defending the Association, which is the current Certified Representation for the AA Mechanic and Related. The TWU and IAM’s NMB Certifications were both extinguished the Association was certified. The current AMFA card drive is to challenge and unseat the Association as the Certified Representative. The Mechanics that are defending the IAM and the TWU seem to not realize that the NMB ruled that “Each of the Association agreements indicates that both the TWU and the IAM had the authority under their applicable governing documents to enter into the joint labor organization agreement.” (42 NMB No. 20 Determination of Certification – May 19th. 2015) The referenced applicable governing documents are the TWU and IAM Constitutions. In other words both Constitutions gave the Leaders of the two Unions the power and authority to enter into the Association agreement without membership consent. And while the two Unions promised the members we would get to vote, behind closed doors they argued against the vote, and American Airlines did not object to the certification, so you were denied that vote.
The TWU and the IAM are now rumored to be planning to decertify the Association, recertify the TWU and the IAM, with Mechanic and Related going to the TWU and Fleet Service going to the IAM and then placing a bar on representation elections. Once again without the vote of the membership, and with approval of American Airlines. The only way the NMB will approve this latest TWU-IAM scam to avoid membership voting and replacement is if American Airlines management does not object. If this happens we plan to initiate a letter writing, phone calling, and petition signing campaign directed at American Airlines Executives, the Board Members of the NMB, and our Federal Senate and House of Representatives.
WE MUST BE PREPARED AND ACT IF THIS SCAM SURFACES!
In negotiations American Airlines management has been demanding the Association let the membership vote on their Final Offer Proposal of October 31st, 2019. The Association refuses. A clear pattern of denying the membership any authority or influence in our careers.
It is hypocritical and unconscionable that American Airlines would demand of vote on their contract proposal but yet not object to the Association getting away with another change in our representation without membership balloting.
WE MUST DEMAND A VOTE!
WE MUST DEMAND AA MANAGEMENT OBJECT!
Since the facts are clear that no Union succeeded in stopping the difficulties of the past in the Airline Industry, the argument is not about comparing the past, the argument is about our future. And since both Federal Courts and the NMB have ruled the both the TWU and the IAM Constitutions give all power and authority to allow two men to harm the membership without a vote, while enriching the organization and leaders we must seek change. The Union Constitution is a binding legal Document that is enforceable in Federal Court regarding the governance of the Union and the membership rights within the Union. Allowing the TWU or the IAM to now force us into another scam is not going to change the membership’s lack of authority in the decision making of the Union. Why go back to the same Constitutions that gave two men the authority to create this Failed Association to begin with? The AMFA Constitution gives that authority back to the Mechanic and Related Union Membership where it belongs.
Please Sign a Card Calling for a VOTE to stop the TWU-IAM Scams
The overwhelming support that this card drive has received is much appreciated
Dave Stewart – AMFA Organizer
American Airlines Tulsa Base
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
