AZ to leave Skyteam TATL JV

[topDawg]

deflect and spin blah blah blah I just can't answer a simple question. 

FIFY
 
its yes or no. Lets try this again. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

little question for you.

do you know the timeframe involved in the tense of the verb "to leave"?

would you too like to put 2022 or whatever the year is for the termination of the DL-AF/KL/AZ JV and see if AZ is still in it on that date?

Since I plan to be around for a while, I'll be happy to see who is right and admit if I am wrong.

and you can answer the yes or no question if DL has added capacity such that it is larger or not.

There is nothing in any ALPA-DL agreement that requires DL to fly specific routes. Nothing.

if DL has added capacity above what it has cancelled, then your list of flights that have been cxld means nothing

I would also not be surprised if DL is not in compliance with the JV as of this summer. A 10% addition in capacity when DL's JV partners added lower percentages would surely go a long way.

 

[topDawg]

I still can't answer a simple yes or no question and will deflecting as much as i possibly can

FIFY again.
 

I would also not be surprised if DL is not in compliance with the JV as of this summer. A 10% addition in capacity when DL's JV partners added lower percentages would surely go a long way.

Lol you just keep making crap up. I understand you don't know what you are talking about.
I have told you that DALPA has said it would take about 10 Delta trips of DTW-AMS (or something of that range with 333s to get to the 52% as per the contract.
Delta isn't going to be in compliance this summer. Delta isn't going to be close to being in compliance this summer.If they would have been in compliance this summer the union wouldn't waste the time grieving it. 

and FWIW I will trust the union who, you know, actually tracks this stuff over someone who doesn't even know what the basic formula for how the split works. (again, its not capacity and its not ASMs) 
 

 

[WorldTraveler]

no, you fixed nothing.

you point fingers at other people but you can't admit that DL is a larger airline across the Atlantic including in the AF/KL/JV markets and is growing faster than they are.

if you aren't smart enough to realize that ASKs and ASMs are the same measurement but with a multiplier involved, then I can't help you.

and, again, let me know what ALPA gets for its efforts on the grievance.

 

[topDawg]

no, you fixed nothing.

you point fingers at other people but you can't admit that DL is a larger airline across the Atlantic including in the AF/KL/JV markets and is growing faster than they are.

if you aren't smart enough to realize that ASKs and ASMs are the same measurement but with a multiplier involved, then I can't help you.

and, again, let me know what ALPA gets for its efforts on the grievance.

 
first its EASKs .........you know what.
 
prove me wrong. Post the damn numbers and prove me wrong.  make me look stupid dude. Make ALPA look stupid. You post the numbers, per the contract, and i will personally write Lee Moak and let him know he and his union is stupid.
 
its as simple as that.  
 
one more thing. Can you just answer the yes or no question or not? Its not nearly as hard as you are making it out to be. 
Hell i will help you. 
 
The first two letters a Y E.....just finish it (last letter is S, see i have given you the answer) 

 

[WorldTraveler]

I'm not out to make you or anyone look stupid.

that seems to be what you are out to do... I am not interested in that kind of thing, though.

It doesn't really matter what you call it... it's capacity.

and I am not arguing whether DL is or is not in compliance.

I am saying that if DL can be the largest carrier across the Atlantic by a fairly wide measure, be adding more capacity than other carriers in both the domestic and Atlantic markets - and in their overall system, and that DL became out of compliance solely because of the inclusion of AZ in the JV AFTER the last pilot contract was signed, then perhaps ALPA is chasing the wrong measurements.

and if ALPA wants to chase measurements without like you considering all the growth that DL has given its pilots, then perhaps the company isn't and shouldn't be in the least worried about outsourcing everything it can.

if you fastest growing network airline can't make ALPA happy, then perhaps its time to show them what happens when you don't even care to try.

 

[topDawg]

I'm not out to make you or anyone look stupid.

that seems to be what you are out to do... I am not interested in that kind of thing, though.

It doesn't really matter what you call it... it's capacity.

and I am not arguing whether DL is or is not in compliance.

I am saying that if DL can be the largest carrier across the Atlantic by a fairly wide measure, be adding more capacity than other carriers in both the domestic and Atlantic markets - and in their overall system, and that DL became out of compliance solely because of the inclusion of AZ in the JV AFTER the last pilot contract was signed, then perhaps ALPA is chasing the wrong measurements.

and if ALPA wants to chase measurements without like you considering all the growth that DL has given its pilots, then perhaps the company isn't and shouldn't be in the least worried about outsourcing everything it can.

if you fastest growing network airline can't make ALPA happy, then perhaps its time to show them what happens when you don't even care to try.

Yep. Delta didn't agree to it or anything. 
 
Once again your (as you call it) pro-labor* is coming out. Pilots have a contact, delta breaks the contract.....its the pilots fault fire all those worthless bastards. 
 
*unless it negatively effects Delta. 
 
 
and still no answer and more deflection. smfh

 

[WorldTraveler]

I didn't say that DL didn't have a contract.

I did say that if the fastest growing US longhaul int'l carrier can't make ALPA happy, then ALPA is measuring the wrong thing.

shake what ever you need to. with whatever adjectives you want to use to describe it.

 

[topDawg]

I didn't say that DL didn't have a contract.

I did say that if the fastest growing US longhaul int'l carrier can't make ALPA happy, then ALPA is measuring the wrong thing.

shake what ever you need to. with whatever adjectives you want to use to describe it.

ALPA is measuring what Delta agreed to. 
 
So you are saying ALPA should just forget whats in the contract because DL is growing faster than AA or UA? Once again, does that mean the pilots can pick parts of they want to go by? 
 
maybe take some more time off or fly less and still get the same pay? 

 

[WorldTraveler]

nope. It means that if ALPA and the company agreed to something that doesn't reflect the growth that DL has provided including in DL's int'l system, then the measurement is missing some major components and if ALPA wants to measure want statistic to the exclusion of dozens of others that more than show that the company has been beneficial for DL pilots, then you and they should not be surprised if the company turns the screws on other things that matter to the company.

It's about being willing to see and appreciate the big picture and not dwelling on one or two measurements that show something negative to the exclusion of what is positive.

 

[topDawg]

nope. It means that if ALPA and the company agreed to something that doesn't reflect the growth that DL has provided including in DL's int'l system, then the measurement is missing some major components and if ALPA wants to measure want statistic to the exclusion of dozens of others that more than show that the company has been beneficial for DL pilots, then you and they should not be surprised if the company turns the screws on other things that matter to the company.

It's about being willing to see and appreciate the big picture and not dwelling on one or two measurements that show something negative to the exclusion of what is positive.

Again i will ask you, should the pilots be able to break the contract like you say Delta should be able to. 
 
 
Again, your anti-labor true colors are back. Your ex-leadership would be proud though. As i have said, you could care less about us. Even said Delta should outsource employees. True colors. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

I am not anti-labor.

and the pilots should very well be able to demonstrate what they have done which is not in the contract and ask for the company to consider that.

supposedly, sick time is a sore spot with the company. operational integrity by the pilot group is a very strong point. Both include elements that aren't in the contract. It's up to the negotiators on both sides to sort all of that out because there should be values for it all.

but, once again, if ALPA is willing to pitch a fit over a single statistic which DL did not meet even though DL has added more capacity than either AA or UA, then the wrong thing is being measured.

and I have a feeling that DL's company negotiators and strategists can easily find ways to make sure the pilots get nothing more than they are promised on a whole lot of other items if the pilots don't want to accept that some things - like the addition of the 717s - has been enormously positive for DL pilots.

Just because it might have happened regardless of whether it was in the contract or not, DL has far exceeded its measurements to shift flying from DCI to DL on the mainline system.

DL has also added flying to Latin America, including to Brazil and Asia, which is longhaul flying but which is not covered by the JV agreements because DL doesn't have JVs in Latin America or Asia.

BTW, surely you are aware that DL is pushing a global scope measurement and ALPA is clearly considering what DL has done in other markets to offset the TATL JV issues.

 

[topDawg]

I am not anti-labor.

and the pilots should very well be able to demonstrate what they have done which is not in the contract and ask for the company to consider that.

supposedly, sick time is a sore spot with the company. operational integrity by the pilot group is a very strong point. Both include elements that aren't in the contract. It's up to the negotiators on both sides to sort all of that out because there should be values for it all.

but, once again, if ALPA is willing to pitch a fit over a single statistic which DL did not meet even though DL has added more capacity than either AA or UA, then the wrong thing is being measured.

and I have a feeling that DL's company negotiators and strategists can easily find ways to make sure the pilots get nothing more than they are promised on a whole lot of other items if the pilots don't want to accept that some things - like the addition of the 717s - has been enormously positive for DL pilots.

Just because it might have happened regardless of whether it was in the contract or not, DL has far exceeded its measurements to shift flying from DCI to DL on the mainline system.

DL has also added flying to Latin America, including to Brazil and Asia, which is longhaul flying but which is not covered by the JV agreements because DL doesn't have JVs in Latin America or Asia.

BTW, surely you are aware that DL is pushing a global scope measurement and ALPA is clearly considering what DL has done in other markets to offset the TATL JV issues.

 
WT, when you were at Delta, if Delta said they would give you a 5% raise but gave you 3%.....would you be happy about that? If the excuse was "well AA gave out 2% and UA gave out 1% so we thought 3% was enough even though we told you 5%" 
You would be okay with that? 
How about if they cut your pension funding right now because someone at AA/UA makes less? 

 

[WorldTraveler]

if DL couldn't demonstrate that they had given me something else that was equally as value as the 2%, then yes I would be upset.

DL has indeed given the pilots value far above what it promised to do and is not in the contract.

that is the part that you and ALPA don't want to count because it isn't in the contract.

btw, it is good to be chatting with you today... largely cordially.

 

[topDawg]

if DL couldn't demonstrate that they had given me something else that was equally as value as the 2%, then yes I would be upset.

DL has indeed given the pilots value far above what it promised to do and is not in the contract.

that is the part that you and ALPA don't want to count because it isn't in the contract.

btw, it is good to be chatting with you today... largely cordially.

I don't know what you are saying the company is giving the pilots. 
 
you are looking at this from a bean counter view not from our view. 
(and for any dumbass, yes i said dumbass, that doesn't think it effects all of us, it does. It means more FAs. Possibly more ACS and it means more TechOps. 20 or airplanes is a lot of c-check work. It could, with all the contract work, mean a second line. Thats 70 or so people.....70 new people below me makes things better for me. Might mean someone gets off 3rd shift etc.) 
 
 So again I will ask, should Delta be able to cut your pension payments based on what AA and UA do? Because right now, you are saying it is okay for the company to cut the pilots pay based on UA/AA not based on the legal contract they signed. 
 
 
I don't care what AA or UA does. Simple fact is, when they company agrees to something, coming to me and telling me that "well overall your better than AA/UA or who ever else....lets forget this little part" is complete and total bull ****. They signed a contract. Period. I don't give a damn how stupid it was at the time, they signed it. They agreed to it. They don't get to pick what they want and don't want to do.