Delta, Alaska Airlines Fight For Market Share In Seattle

[700UW]

A tool?
 
Is that what you call your missionaries who dont listen to you?
 
Did Jesus teach you and others to call names?
 
WN has had plenty of dealing with the CAB and proved it with facts.
 
You are setting such a fine example for your offspring.

 

The Letter of James, in the New Testament, includes a lengthy disquisition about the natural difficulty of reining in this kind of talk. 
 
For every species of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by the human species, but no one can tame the tongue--a restless evil, full of deadly poison.  With it we bless the Lord and Father, and with it we curse those who are made in the likeness of God.  From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers and sisters, this ought not to be so.  (3:7-10)
 
I'm not sure that I would characterize the tongue as "a restless evil," but the writer makes an important point.  Speech can wound. 
 
Email and other web-based and digital communications make this an even more dangerous game.  How easy it is to post a snarky comment, engage in character assassination, or, to use an underutilized word, be mean, under the easy guise of "humor."          
 
Malicious humor is sinful for several reasons.  First, it is uncharitable.  It is an act that does not proceed from love.  Second, it fails to respect the dignity of the person.  Third, if done behind a person's back, it "steals," in a sense, the person's good name, without giving the person the right to defend himself or herself.  (Like those fictional feathers, malicious humor travels to places the speaker cannot have anticipated.)
 
Jesus of Nazareth, in a passage that is often overlooked perhaps because of an obscure word, once commented on this brand of humor.  One translation has it: "If a person calls another person raca, then he is answerable to the Sanhedrin, and if you say “you fool” will be liable to the fires of Gehenna.” (Mt. 5:22)  Raca is an Aramaic word for "empty-headed."  Jesus is saying, in essence, that malicious talk could land you in hell. 
 
Here is an important fact about that short passage: some Scripture scholars believe that one indication that a phrase came directly from the mouth of Jesus is the preservation of an Aramaic word or phrase.  Two familiar examples are "Abba" (Jesus's common way of speaking to God the Father) or "Talitha cum," his words to a young girl thought dead. ("Little girl, get up!) (Mk. 5:11) The words themselves were notable enough to become part of the story, and may have been preserved by the writers of the Gospel for their historicity, but also for what they may have said about Jesus. 
 
For example, it was probably striking to his contemporaries that Jesus would use the familiar Aramaic term "Abba," to address the Almighty.  (It is an affectionate way of speaking to a father, rather than the more formal way that most Jews of the time addressed God, whose name could not even be pronounced.)  Both of these Aramaic phrases--“Abba” and “Talitha cum”--lend these particular Gospel passages an extra level of authenticity; they imply an eyewitness account, rather than a story told by someone who was not present, or heard the story second-hand.
 
Likewise, raca may be one such example of a striking word used by Jesus preserved in its original Aramaic form.  Thus, many who read the New Testament carefully, and take from it so many specific doctrines, regulations and prohibitions, sometimes fail to consider this prohibition on malicious humor, which may have come directly from Jesus's lips.
 
In general, we can usually tell when humor crosses the line.  Most of us have an internal gauge that tells us know when a joke moves from playful to hurtful.  The voice of our conscience is usually loud and clear on this point.  But if you still feel that your internal gauge needs some fine-tuning, or even an overhaul, you might ask yourself the following questions that my spiritual director once shared with me, slightly adapted from the writings of Krishnamurti, the popular spiritual leader and New Age icon (1895-1986).  They are the three doors that charitable speech must pass through.
 
The gatekeeper at the first door asks, "Is it true?"
The second gatekeeper asks, "Is it helpful?"
The third gatekeeper asks, "Is it kind?"
 
Good humor is true (it reveals a truth); it is helpful (helps others and the group, perhaps to understand something, to lighten a difficult situation, to self-deprecate, or for any of the other reasons mentioned in earlier chapters); and it is kind (it is neither harmful nor destructive.)  Those three gates are a good thing to keep in mind whenever we open our mouths for a joke or otherwise.
 
Excerpted from Between Heaven and Mirth: Why Joy, Humor and Laughter are at the Heart of the Spiritual Life
 

 

[700UW]

what a tool.

you can't admit you are wrong.

the airline industry was regulated before 1978, not deregulated.

Are we the least bit surprised.

WN NEVER OPERATED OUTSIDE OF TEXAS BEFORE THE AIRLINE INDUSTRY WAS DEREGULATED REGARDLESS OF HOW MANY APPLICATIONS THEY FILED

Delta operated longer under the regulated era (49 years) than WN has operated as an airline (43 years).

You're gonna see references to this thread for a long time to come.

It is the IAM at its finest.

CAB was set up in 1938, ended in 1978, that is 40 years, so please explain how DL operated for nine years under the CAB when they werent around anymore?

 

[WorldTraveler]

Why are you bringing Jesus into the discussion?

Have you decided you want to believe Him?

He says that you admit you are wrong and ask for forgiveness, not keep refusing to admit that you are wrong and call other people names because you screwed up.

What standard would you like us to hold you to?

or do you just not believe in any religion so you can hold someone else to a higher standard that you want live up to yourself?

WN NEVER OPERATED INTERSTATE ROUTES BEFORE 1978 AND THE DEREGULATED ERA OF US AVIATION.
 

CAB was set up in 1938, ended in 1978, that is 40 years, so please explain how DL operated for nine years under the CAB when they werent around anymore?

the post office regulated the airline industry which existed to carry the mail.

 

[WNMECH]

yes, and the only thing that keeps WN from having been in the same place is because they weren't around 80 years ago when the industry was regulated.Instead, they came along and took advantage of deregulation to pay their employees pay less than what legacy carriers were paying at the time.and then they dressed them up in very short pants... I mean how totally UN LEGACY can you get.Even WN's employees today would never stoop to those lows in order to help the company succeed.and who do you think subsidized WN's fuel hedge gains ten years ago - when they were pricing well below their otherwise normal costs?does your mental math include the factor of who got ripped off so WN could start new service into a bunch of markets - which in many cases they had to cancel after the hedge gains ended and they had to price their product at, oh wait, their actual costs.of course there are daily fluctuations in the market.you wanna leave it at that or should we keep going?

We'll others have proven you wrong about WN never being regulated.

So you think DAL racked up all their debt in the forty years before WN or the forty three years after WN started service?
You want to claim that WN would have been in bankruptcy just like Delta instead of admitting that it was greed and mismanagement that caused Delta's failures.

The reality is that DAL would not be flying today if it didn't dump it's debt in bankruptcy court.
That is a fact.

You prefer to attack little ole WN and it's solid business sense than admit that Delta failed and is now making profits on the backs of the people it left out to dry in court.

It is easy to make profits when you don't have to pay your bills, however one airline has paid their bills and made profits for the past 43 years and have rewarded their employees and investors instead.

 

[WorldTraveler]

nobody has proven anything wrong.

1978 was the end of FEDERAL REGULATION.

WN never operated an interstate route under the regulated era of aviation.

DL didn't DUMP its debt.

It was refinanced into equity.

Not only do you not understand the history of regulation in the airline industry but you don't understand bankruptcy.

The equity that was created when DL emerged from BK now represents the highest market cap airline in the western world.

and none of this has anything to do with Alaska Airlines other than to provide a forum for two really ignorant people to show the world what they are made of.

 

[700UW]

So did every creditor in the DL case get 100% of their claims?
 
See AA paid 100%.
 
But they did freeze their pension dumping future debt.
 
And they terminated the pilots pension, so yes they did dump debt.
 
And once again he lies:
 
Delta's reorganization plan will give unsecured creditors a percentage of the value of their allowed claims as shares of new Delta stock. Delta employees will get a lump-sum cash payment from the airline, based on a percentage of their salary, and will receive an equity stake in the reorganized company
 
And this from the New York Times:
 

 
Delta's reorganization plan will give unsecured creditors between 62 percent and 78 percent of the value of their allowed claims as shares of new Delta stock.
 

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/26/business/worldbusiness/26iht-delta.1.5448309.html?_r=0

 

[WorldTraveler]

I don't care what AA did.

they aren't the topic of this discussion.

but it is precisely because AA borrowed so much before bankruptcy and paid 100% of their claims (in stock, not cash) that they entered BK solely to screw their employees.

Now there is a record to crow about.

now would you like to admit that you were wrong about the deregulated era of the airline industry, which you say it was before 1978?

 

[WNMECH]

WN NEVER OPERATED INTERSTATE ROUTES BEFORE 1978 AND THE DEREGULATED ERA OF US AVIATION. 

So was it during this short period between 1971 and 1978, that Delta lost all it's money and grew billions in debt so they had to file for bankruptcy about 30 years later?

Naw, I don't think so.

 

[700UW]

And this from the New York Times:
 

 
Delta's reorganization plan will give unsecured creditors between 62 percent and 78 percent of the value of their allowed claims as shares of new Delta stock.
 

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/26/business/worldbusiness/26iht-delta.1.5448309.html?_r=0
 
So explain how DL didnt dump debt when ALL the unsecured creditors didnt receive 100% of their claims?

 

[WorldTraveler]

it was under the DEREGULATED ERA that WN's hot pant clothed FAs began to fly INTERSTATE routes and put pressure on the existing legacy carriers.

You do realize that DL was the highest margin airline in the US industry in the late 90s before 9/11?

You do realize that it was 9/11 that forced the restructuring of the legacy segment of the airline industry that ultimately has reached all of the now existing THREE network legacy carriers, each of which are composed of other airlines that also existed on 9/11 and also filed for BK (CO filed twice before 9/11 so didn't have to file after)?
 

And this from the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/26/business/worldbusiness/26iht-delta.1.5448309.html?_r=0

So explain how DL didnt dump debt when ALL the unsecured creditors didnt receive 100% of their claims?

because they received STOCK in the new company.

that is the way creditor claims work in BK.

 

[700UW]

it was under the DEREGULATED ERA that WN's hot pant clothed FAs began to fly INTERSTATE routes and put pressure on the existing legacy carriers.

You do realize that DL was the highest margin airline in the US industry in the late 90s before 9/11?

You do realize that it was 9/11 that forced the restructuring of the legacy segment of the airline industry that ultimately has reached all of the now existing THREE network legacy carriers, each of which are composed of other airlines that also existed on 9/11 and also filed for BK (CO filed twice before 9/11 so didn't have to file after)?
 

because they received STOCK in the new company.

that is the way creditor claims work in BK.

 
The New York times and DL's own POR states different.
 
Quote

 
Delta's reorganization plan will give unsecured creditors between 62 percent and 78 percent of the value of their allowed claims as shares of new Delta stock.
 

http://www.nytimes.c...48309.html?_r=0

 

[WorldTraveler]

I didn't say they were paid in full.

AA didn't pay in full in cash.

Their claims were paid in full in stock in the new company.

A significant amount of AMR debt was converted to equity in AAL.

paid in full just means they allowed 100% of the value of the claims to be paid in full.

 

[700UW]

No their claims were not paid in full.
 
Are you that dense?
 
Unsecured Creditors didnt receive 100% of their claims in stock.
 
Read it slowly.
 
And you stated DL didnt dump its debt, which I proved you were wrong once again:
 
 

DL didn't DUMP its debt.

It was refinanced into equity.

Not only do you not understand the history of regulation in the airline industry but you don't understand bankruptcy.

The equity that was created when DL emerged from BK now represents the highest market cap airline in the western world.

and none of this has anything to do with Alaska Airlines other than to provide a forum for two really ignorant people to show the world what they are made of.

 
Are you sure you were a numbers person at DL?
 
What happened to the other 22% to 38% of the debt that wasnt paid to the unsecured creditors in the form of equity?
 

 
Delta's reorganization plan will give unsecured creditors between 62 percent and 78 percent of the value of their allowed claims as shares of new Delta stock.
 

http://www.nytimes.c...48309.html?_r=0

 

[WorldTraveler]

what an idiot.

I didn't say the DL creditors were paid in full.

I said they received their claims in stock.

The article says as much.

AMR paid 100% of its claims in stock in the new company but they still converted billions of dollars of debt into equity - that is what the BK process does.

Do you have any clue that the reason for all of those threads on the AA forum about employees receiving stock is because AA terminated certain benefits to the employees and paid them in stock?

none of this has anything to with AS and is just another attempt on your part to refuse to acknowledge that you jumped into a discussion about which you didn't what you were talking about - the regulated era of aviation - and have gone from one topic to another and have been just as ignorant on each one.

You are absolutely the best advertising that DL mgmt. could ask for regarding the labor movement.

simply stunning in your ignorance and arrogance.

 

[700UW]

Does OM know about how you go around calling names?
 
You stated DL didnt dump debt, lets see if DL owed me $100 and I only got $62 in stock, where is my other $38?
 
Its a debt that DL owed and dumped it using Chapter 11 Bankruptcy, I have proved you wrong over and over and over on this.
 
You cant stand when someone proves you wrong.
 
Facts dont lie, but figures like you do lie.