Kev3188
Veteran
IAM saved a lot of stations but I believe it is also true that the IAM agreed to cut in the hubs in order to save particular stations. Correct me if I'm wrong, Kev. (you're the man w/ the answers, tonite)
Not that I can recall?
Delta (finally) adds -8 to the CF34 line
- Thread starter topDawg
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Not that I can recall?
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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I don't think MHT maintains year around mainline service but I may be wrong. I'm not sure that any station that is not mainline operated maintains mainline staffing except for the Shuttle.
DL doesn't have a hard number of mainline flights that it takes for a station to be mainline staffed but the same concept of a certain level of activity certainly has to exist in order for a station to be mainline staffed.
However, that doesn't mean that every station that meets those thresholds WILL BE mainline staffed.
It is also noteworthy that some larger stations that are contract are highly seasonal such as Florida.
It is much easier to reduce staffing on a seasonal basis w/ contractors than with mainline employees even RR.
Kev,
I thought that NW originally wanted to outsource all stations outside of the hubs but the IAM countered to save the current medium sized cities... what was given up in order to get the company to accept that? NW didn't just decide to add back a bunch of cities w/o the IAM giving something up.
DL doesn't have a hard number of mainline flights that it takes for a station to be mainline staffed but the same concept of a certain level of activity certainly has to exist in order for a station to be mainline staffed.
However, that doesn't mean that every station that meets those thresholds WILL BE mainline staffed.
It is also noteworthy that some larger stations that are contract are highly seasonal such as Florida.
It is much easier to reduce staffing on a seasonal basis w/ contractors than with mainline employees even RR.
Kev,
I thought that NW originally wanted to outsource all stations outside of the hubs but the IAM countered to save the current medium sized cities... what was given up in order to get the company to accept that? NW didn't just decide to add back a bunch of cities w/o the IAM giving something up.
Thanks Kev. I'm on Pinnacle CRJ oneway to DTW will ask when I am there. Rarely fly from MHT just up that way for the holiday weekend.
Josh
Kev3188
Veteran
It is also noteworthy that some have a high volume year-round...
Pretty sure Airlifer wasn't talking about seasonal cities; I sure wasn't...
That's correct. It's called negotiating.
Too much, IMO. Nothing "structural" in the hubs, though.
Kev3188
Veteran
My guess is DGS... let us know.
I just got back from DTW. Have to admit seeing the odd piece of still grey or red equipment that survived the ethnic cleansing made me smile.
Kev3188
Veteran
Upstairs too, unfortunately... It was all or nothing with us. No mixing and matching like DL does...
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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by definition, Florida is seasonal and also has significant peaks between days of week and months that are larger than at other stations.
Negotiation is the process that is used in business transactions including between companies and unions where something is traded for something.
NW didn't just back off of its original demand that NW personnel would be cut in dozens of other cities.... the IAM gave something back whether you and I can remember what it was.
Again, DL's desire is that customer service does not change based on whether it is mainline or regional carrier - which is why DL is more "protective" of having mainline employees working customer-facing positions even if it involves regional carrier flights.
Below wing contracting or inhouse is related to the type of aircraft and the complexity of the operation; hubs and large stations are more complex.
Let us also not forget that DL now operates above wing and below wing functions for its regional carrier flights at several key hubs including ATL and DTW and LGA, is that correct and did I miss any?
What other carriers and at which hubs?
It also doesn't change that DL will have ramp at more cities than nearly every other airline except for WN who is trying to outsource more and more of its own ramp.
Most regional carrier operations are handled by regional carrier employees across the board.
A union didn't tell DL they should use mainline employees to work regional carrier flights at some of their largest stations and it wasn't negotiated.
DL did it because it made sense in those cities.
southwind
Veteran
Delta folk's got hosed no more than their union counter-parts, during BK. We just didn't waste all that dues money !
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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which just means that being represented by a union includes being jerked around w/ possibilities that may or may not become reality.
NW didn't just walk away from what it wanted just because they were nice. We're not talking about grandmother here.
I could be mistaken but Kev has said repeatedly that ATL and DTW have DGS presence and LGA shuttle is contracted on the ramp.
Josh
Kev3188
Veteran
Neat.
Doesn't change the fact that the cities I have in mind don't see wild swings in flight activity.
We lost plenty, but also kept plenty. The question you asked dealt specifically with cuts to hubs. IIRC, there weren't any.
DL does it because it's paying for labor peace...for now...
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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Josh,
that is correct but LGA C/D terminals are not staffed the same way that the Shuttle is which operates from the Marine Air Terminal.
There are far more flights at the DL Flight Center (Terminals C/D) and many of those flights are mainline staffed but RJs.
There are many, many RJ flights that are worked by mainline staff between ATL, DTW, and LGA - and others probably including LAX and ORD and others including all of those cities that are mainline staffed but also have RJs...
but many carriers do not have mainline staff working anywhere near the number of RJ flights that DL employees do....
that comparison somehow gets lost with those who want to paint the picture as a one-way street of work which DL employees lose that other carriers retain - yet that mindset is a flawed interpretation of reality.
Kev,
the question was about what the IAM gave up in order to retain mainline employees in the cities that NW intended to outsource. It doesn't matter where it was but the IAM did give something up. I would be grateful if you would tell us what it was.
I also didn't say that DL mainline staffs every city that COULD qualify for mainline staff - but that if there aren't enough mainline flights, DL won't mainline staff it - but neither will other airlines either.
Again, DL will have more mainline staffed airport cities than most other airlines.
and that is because it makes economic sense and because DL has the flexibility to keep it that way, not because they will decide they have accumulated enough political capital to sneak something past the employees w/o a union being voted in.
I want DL employees in those cities to enjoy the lives they have built; there is no reason for employees to be forced to move around as was once the norm, esp. for those in small/medium cities. The best way for that stability to happen is if the company has the flexibility to hire a sufficient number of lower paid RR employees so that there aren't too many higher paid FT employees to make the economics of a mainline station unworkable - which is exactly what happens at many airlines.
DL is redefining a number of things about the way airlines have operated. There is no reason to think that the traditional thinking about small/medium sized city staffing isn't part of those changes.
that is correct but LGA C/D terminals are not staffed the same way that the Shuttle is which operates from the Marine Air Terminal.
There are far more flights at the DL Flight Center (Terminals C/D) and many of those flights are mainline staffed but RJs.
There are many, many RJ flights that are worked by mainline staff between ATL, DTW, and LGA - and others probably including LAX and ORD and others including all of those cities that are mainline staffed but also have RJs...
but many carriers do not have mainline staff working anywhere near the number of RJ flights that DL employees do....
that comparison somehow gets lost with those who want to paint the picture as a one-way street of work which DL employees lose that other carriers retain - yet that mindset is a flawed interpretation of reality.
Kev,
the question was about what the IAM gave up in order to retain mainline employees in the cities that NW intended to outsource. It doesn't matter where it was but the IAM did give something up. I would be grateful if you would tell us what it was.
I also didn't say that DL mainline staffs every city that COULD qualify for mainline staff - but that if there aren't enough mainline flights, DL won't mainline staff it - but neither will other airlines either.
Again, DL will have more mainline staffed airport cities than most other airlines.
and that is because it makes economic sense and because DL has the flexibility to keep it that way, not because they will decide they have accumulated enough political capital to sneak something past the employees w/o a union being voted in.
I want DL employees in those cities to enjoy the lives they have built; there is no reason for employees to be forced to move around as was once the norm, esp. for those in small/medium cities. The best way for that stability to happen is if the company has the flexibility to hire a sufficient number of lower paid RR employees so that there aren't too many higher paid FT employees to make the economics of a mainline station unworkable - which is exactly what happens at many airlines.
DL is redefining a number of things about the way airlines have operated. There is no reason to think that the traditional thinking about small/medium sized city staffing isn't part of those changes.
Kev3188
Veteran
Correct.
MSP does as well. At MSP & DTW they replaced Regional Elite, who apparently were too expensive... in some other cities, they handle a portion of the operation (or portions), and of course they are the handler in many places that are outsourced entirely...
