Delta (finally) adds -8 to the CF34 line

[WorldTraveler]

and a balanced perspective requires noting that in ATL alone DL handles DCI in an operation that has over 300 regional jet flights per day. The only other hub in the US that has that many MAINLINE flights is AA at DFW; AA and UA at ORD, UA at EWR or IAD, US at CLT and PHL... don't have mainline operations worked their own people that are as large as the RJ operation that DL works for its regional carriers in ATL. The size of the operation that DL employees work for its regional partners is enormous on top of the DL mainline operation which is twice as large; DL's operation at ATL will exceed 1,000 flights/day this summer, far larger than anything else in the world and there is no division between what is ground handled by regional carrier employees and what is worked by mainline employees. And the best part for job security and DL employees is that the size of DL's mainline operation at ATL is only going to grow with the arrival of the 717s. Even at LGA, DL mainline employees handle over 100 RJ flights in the primary C/D terminals, far more than is outsourced in the Marine Air Terminal, esp. since the Shuttle operation is a large RJ operation. And I still haven't heard a list of regional carrier flights handled by mainline employees at a larger hub in the US outside of DL.

The simple reason DL has taken on ground handling for its regional carriers in some hubs is because it makes economic sense in those cities. DL mainline had the staff and resources and DL was able to cut its overall costs by using its own employees more efficiently.
Other airlines won't mix mainline and regional carrier work like DL does because other carriers have to respect competing union contracts while also not allowing a union-represented group to grow too large.

It also goes to show that DL gains more in efficiency than it gives up in higher salaries - and shows that DL completely validates WN's long-standing focus on efficiency as far more valuable than having low-paid workers.

Balanced perspective requires also noting the number of unionized jobs that were lost in the 90s, including when EA and PA went out of business but I haven't seen anyone step forward w/ those numbers.... talking about 7.5 in isolation of the rest of the industry or what DL outsources on the ramp w/o also noting what DL insources is not a balanced or accurate discussion.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I just got back from DTW. Have to admit seeing the odd piece of still grey or red equipment that survived the ethnic cleansing made me smile.

glad someone managed to hide a few things from the DL paint brush.

The then mayor of NYC commented on Nov 1, 1991 at DL's TATL inaugurals at JFK when DL took over the Pan Am operation that white paint could not be found in NYC because DL had bought it all and used it the night before (Halloween, no less). The era of the blue globe ended soon after and now the main terminal DL inherited comes to an end today.

But photos still live of all the airlines that make up DL today; my son used a pic of N665US - a PMNW 744 - as the wallpaper on "his" computer.

And I regularly drink coffee from a NW coffee mug which a good friend gave me. A DL employee (former NW) recently noted elsewhere that the number of NW items in the DL museum in ATL continues to grow.

 

[topDawg]

is there a link to dl insourcing work from both regional carriers and other airlines

I can give you some names,
USAF
USN
Other DoD work
Fedex
Alaskan
Hawaiian
UPS
LAN
OpenSkies

On top of that, Delta's CF34 shop is a 100% insourced engine line (ie, they don't work on a single Delta engine) and is the only CF34 shop that isn't OEM in the US, and I believe North America.

 

[topDawg]

Josh,
that is correct but LGA C/D terminals are not staffed the same way that the Shuttle is which operates from the Marine Air Terminal.

There are far more flights at the DL Flight Center (Terminals C/D) and many of those flights are mainline staffed but RJs.

There are many, many RJ flights that are worked by mainline staff between ATL, DTW, and LGA - and others probably including LAX and ORD and others including all of those cities that are mainline staffed but also have RJs...
but many carriers do not have mainline staff working anywhere near the number of RJ flights that DL employees do....

that comparison somehow gets lost with those who want to paint the picture as a one-way street of work which DL employees lose that other carriers retain - yet that mindset is a flawed interpretation of reality.

Kev,
the question was about what the IAM gave up in order to retain mainline employees in the cities that NW intended to outsource. It doesn't matter where it was but the IAM did give something up. I would be grateful if you would tell us what it was.

I also didn't say that DL mainline staffs every city that COULD qualify for mainline staff - but that if there aren't enough mainline flights, DL won't mainline staff it - but neither will other airlines either.

Again, DL will have more mainline staffed airport cities than most other airlines.

and that is because it makes economic sense and because DL has the flexibility to keep it that way, not because they will decide they have accumulated enough political capital to sneak something past the employees w/o a union being voted in.

I want DL employees in those cities to enjoy the lives they have built; there is no reason for employees to be forced to move around as was once the norm, esp. for those in small/medium cities. The best way for that stability to happen is if the company has the flexibility to hire a sufficient number of lower paid RR employees so that there aren't too many higher paid FT employees to make the economics of a mainline station unworkable - which is exactly what happens at many airlines.

DL is redefining a number of things about the way airlines have operated. There is no reason to think that the traditional thinking about small/medium sized city staffing isn't part of those changes.

So cities like RDU,SAN and DFW aren't large enough to have mainline?

AFAIK these would all be mainline cities, by far, under the NWA scope and AA(post BK),US and UA.

Oh and none of those carriers have RR or a company owned outsourcing operation.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

But photos still live of all the airlines that make up DL today; my son used a pic of N665US - a PMNW 744 -

Off topic alert:

Worked on that ship many times. Also the dreaded N666US. I never understood why NWA didn't ask to skip the 666 number in the sequence.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I didn't say they aren't large enough. I agree with you and Kev that they should be opened as mainline cities like yesterday.

but it doesn't change that DL hasn't opened any NEW cities to the ramp, as Kev notes. DL HAS honored the agreements that NW made with the IAM and I believe it is because it is economically advantages.

I very much want to see those cities and others gain mainline personnel. The 717 is the best chance for that to happen.

Are you sure that AA and UA haven't agreed to outsource far more cities than DL will retain?

These carriers are retaining outsourcing operations under the same corporate structure, including American Eagle which is taking over many of the cities that AA will close to its own ramp personnel. AE may be sold but for now it is part of AMR Corp.

Like the CF34 engine, the option is for that money to go out the door - whether directly or via regional carrier contracts - or get part of the action.

By having a contracting operation inhouse, DL regains at least some of what would be spent on that outsourcing if it went to other companies.

interesting sidebar, Q. DL has row 13 also so I guess both have no superstitions.

And I believe DL had or has a ship 666, a 757.

 

[topDawg]

Delta folk's got hosed no more than their union counter-parts, during BK. We just didn't waste all that dues money !

Are you on crack? LOLOLOLOL this is about the funniest s**t i have ever heard. 1) you weren't at Delta preBK 2) you didn't know jack diddly piss about the company. You gotta be an engine shop guy.

Where do I start?
Delta has more ASMs than any other carrier(and at one point it was more than any carrier combined)
Delta has (at least 1) lees week of vacation than
United has always made more.....even after Union dues.(at last check it was 200 bucks a pay check after dues were taken) Delta may have finally passed them, of course they still have 7 weeks of vacation.
Even after BK AA will still do more work in-house(counting TAESL) than Delta. (including 100s of 737NG HMVs. Those are being done at AAR for Delta)
United pays ~3% less for health care.

Do you even look at the charts DELTA post on this stuff? Good lawd. How about this, you save you 50-100 bucks, and I'll take the extra 3 weeks of vacation, 200 bucks and lower healthcare cost.
But you're winning......clearly.

 

[WorldTraveler]

how much was UA's profit-sharing last year?

you do realize that 6.67% amounts to about 3 weeks of pay, don't you?

And UA is a larger carrier than DL.

The difference in salary for all UA vs DL employees is about $400, less than one-tenth of the average amount of profit sharing for the "average" DL employee for all workgroups. I don't think too many DL employees would trade DL's profit sharing for UA's health plans even if they are 3% less costly.

DL has been hiring significantly, esp. among FAs which helps to push DL seniority down and put employees lower on the scale. UA, not so much

It isn't at all clear the percent of AA's work that will be done inhouse but DL's net outsourcing, including its insourcing is about 15%, far lower than the mid 20% percent of outsourcing at AA right now. AA has no plans to significantly outsource which means there is no replacement for what is outsourced as occurs at DL. And there will be a significant maintenance holiday at AA that will reduce total maintenance volumes considerably.

DL believes the additional maintenance costs incurred by adding 150 older 717s and M90s are lower than the financing costs that would be necessary to buy the same number of new aircraft. And no other US network carrier has announced plans to acquire a 100 seat aircraft for mainline use which says DL could well be the only carrier operating in that class - which means jobs for DL employees across the board which would be outsourced to smaller aircraft at other carriers.

UA's outsourcing percent is far higher than either AA or DL; it isn't hard to pay a much smaller workforce higher amounts if you outsource far higher percentages overall.

 

[robbedagain]

Thanks topdawg!!
they do a lot of work

 

[737823]

Josh,
that is correct but LGA C/D terminals are not staffed the same way that the Shuttle is which operates from the Marine Air Terminal.

There are far more flights at the DL Flight Center (Terminals C/D) and many of those flights are mainline staffed but RJs.

There are many, many RJ flights that are worked by mainline staff between ATL, DTW, and LGA - and others probably including LAX and ORD and others including all of those cities that are mainline staffed but also have RJs...
but many carriers do not have mainline staff working anywhere near the number of RJ flights that DL employees do....

that comparison somehow gets lost with those who want to paint the picture as a one-way street of work which DL employees lose that other carriers retain - yet that mindset is a flawed interpretation of reality.

Very true, DL has m/l service to many markets that most other carriers have RJs. The DL RJ experience is miles above even the better UAX operators like GoJet Skywest or Shuttle America in my experience. It will be interesting to see how the 717s will be deployed. Maybe they will make an appearance on the Shuttle. In only a flew years time Shuttle has gone from 738s to MD88s to 319s and now 175s.

Too bad UA has so many atrociously long UAX routes like ATL-DEN, AUS-SFO, ORD-SLC to name a few. Seems all the 733 and 735 retirements from 2007-2009 have been back filled with Express flying as more UA pilots are on furlough.

Josh

 

[737823]

United pays ~3% less for health care..

The IAM will take care of that. The failed T/A had protection for only seven stations, no cargo protected, no Express protected and among the highest health care premiums in the industry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLB5QGbCNEI

Josh

 

[robbedagain]

i did not know that ual flew rjs from den to atl but no surprse us flies some crjs from atl to phl

 

[737823]

The entire ATL-DEN market is all Express for UA. UA only has one m/l to ORD at ATL, the rest is all Express.

Josh

 

[robbedagain]

thats pathetic id bet that most of the flights are well oversold or may be the pax flee to dl or aa or someone else who flies mainline

 

[737823]

thats pathetic id bet that most of the flights are well oversold or may be the pax flee to dl or aa or someone else who flies mainline

Some days UA has as many as four E70s on BOS-ORD, every time I fly UA that route they are oversold. If UA could find a way to fly Express to HKG/LHR/NRT/TLV/etc they would.

Josh