I read an article on aol.com business section that Delta may or will ask the court to force the huge paycuts on the pilots. But as of today there is no word on whether they asked the court to do just that.
Delta May Ask The Ch11 Court To
- Thread starter robbedagain
- Start date
Tuesday, November 1, 2005
Union: Delta ready to void pilots' pact
By James Pilcher
Enquirer staff writer
Delta Air Lines plans to ask a bankruptcy judge to reject its contract with its pilots union within the next few days, the carrier’s branch of the Air Line Pilots Association told its members today.
The news came less than two weeks after the airline’s lone major unionized work group voluntarily entered into talks over the $325 million in annual concessions Delta was seeking as it restructures under Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.
If the judge sides with the company and rejects the contract, that could mean that management could impose its own work rules and pay temporarily. If a final version is not agreed to eventually, the pilots could walk out, although a union at an airline under bankruptcy protection has never tested that situation.
“We were interested and committed to bridging this gap between what we could do now and a long-term agreement, and management asked us to enter those negotiations,†union spokesman John Culp said. “But management was clearly not committed to the process – they would not engage and did not follow through.â€
The move came on the same day that all non-union workers at Delta took pay cuts, as previously announced. Front-line workers saw their pay cut of 7 percent to 9 percent, while senior managers and executives received cuts of up to 15 percent. Delta chief executive officer Gerald Grinstein had his $500,000 annual salary cut 25 percent to $375,000. The non-union employees took an earlier pay cut Jan. 1.
Delta has lost more than $10 billion in the past four years and filed for bankruptcy protection Sept. 14. The nation’s third-largest airline, Delta employs nearly 700 pilots at the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport, its second-largest hub, and more than 7,000 system wide.
The airline had not officially filed for rejection of the contract under Section 11-13 of the bankruptcy code as of late last night.
“While Delta remains open to reaching a consensual agreement to achieve the needed pilot cost reductions, the urgency of our financial situation requires that we move forward quickly,†Delta spokesman John Kennedy said last night.
Kennedy said that if such a motion were made to the bankruptcy court, the company would not ask for more than the $325 million already sought from the pilots.
Management apparently acted today because the talks were not progressing fast enough.
Delta provided the union another version of its position Monday night along with an ultimatum to reach a tentative agreement within three hours, according to union officials. Then this morning, the company told the union of its plans to go to the court, according to a voice mail to all pilots.
“Theoretically, this talking could have gone on for months, and the company is out of time,†said Mike Boyd, president of Colorado-based aviation consulting group The Boyd Group. “This is not like a normal negotiation – the company set the bottom line and that was it. This is not a time to play kabuki theatre at the bargaining table.â€
Once such a motion is made, a hearing involving both parties would be held between two and three weeks from the filing date. Then, the judge has up to 30 days to render a decision; with several criteria listed in the law as to what standards the company has to meet before the contract could be voided.
The two sides could still work out a voluntary deal in the meantime, as did United Airlines and its flight attendant union.
But if it no agreement is reached, and the judge decides on behalf of the company, Delta could impose the pay scales and work rules initially proposed at the hearing and in the filing.
That would be an interim solution however, and both sides would have to agree to make it permanent.
If such an agreement can’t be reached, the pilots might have the option of walking off the job, although a strike has never been legally tested in bankruptcy and such a move would certainly cripple – if not kill – the airline.
Experts said it is unclear whether such an action would be legal under the Railway Labor Act, which governs labor relations in the airline and railroad industries.
When asked if such a strike could be possible, Culp said that the union would “consider all legal remedies.â€
The $325 million in cuts that Delta wants from the pilots would include a 19.5 percent pay cut, according to one version of the company’s proposal. That would come on top of the $1 billion the union gave back late last year to stave off bankruptcy then – cuts that included a 32.5 percent pay cut for all pilots.
Delta pilots are paid between about $34,000 for a starting first officer to about $194,000 a year for a senior wide-body captain, although most mid-career pilots earn between $100,000 to $150,000 annually.
Earlier today, Kentucky Lt. Gov. Steve Pence met with Delta vice president of community affairs Doug Blissit at the airport in Hebron to get an update on Delta’s condition and to offer support on behalf of the state. Delta and its Erlanger-based subsidiary Comair plan to cut at least 1,000 jobs total and 26 percent of its flights from Cincinnati on Dec. 1.
Pence referred any specific questions about local job cuts to Delta, and said that no specific proposals as to state aid were discussed in the meeting.
“Delta is as important to Kentucky as Churchill Downs, Toyota or Lexmark,†said Pence. “We just wanted to see if there was anything that we could do for them … It’s a testament to the state when it can stick by companies in the bad times, and then we can reap the rewards of the expansions in the good times.â€
Delta said Blissit would not be available for comment.
E-mail [email protected]
Union: Delta ready to void pilots' pact
By James Pilcher
Enquirer staff writer
Delta Air Lines plans to ask a bankruptcy judge to reject its contract with its pilots union within the next few days, the carrier’s branch of the Air Line Pilots Association told its members today.
The news came less than two weeks after the airline’s lone major unionized work group voluntarily entered into talks over the $325 million in annual concessions Delta was seeking as it restructures under Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.
If the judge sides with the company and rejects the contract, that could mean that management could impose its own work rules and pay temporarily. If a final version is not agreed to eventually, the pilots could walk out, although a union at an airline under bankruptcy protection has never tested that situation.
“We were interested and committed to bridging this gap between what we could do now and a long-term agreement, and management asked us to enter those negotiations,†union spokesman John Culp said. “But management was clearly not committed to the process – they would not engage and did not follow through.â€
The move came on the same day that all non-union workers at Delta took pay cuts, as previously announced. Front-line workers saw their pay cut of 7 percent to 9 percent, while senior managers and executives received cuts of up to 15 percent. Delta chief executive officer Gerald Grinstein had his $500,000 annual salary cut 25 percent to $375,000. The non-union employees took an earlier pay cut Jan. 1.
Delta has lost more than $10 billion in the past four years and filed for bankruptcy protection Sept. 14. The nation’s third-largest airline, Delta employs nearly 700 pilots at the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport, its second-largest hub, and more than 7,000 system wide.
The airline had not officially filed for rejection of the contract under Section 11-13 of the bankruptcy code as of late last night.
“While Delta remains open to reaching a consensual agreement to achieve the needed pilot cost reductions, the urgency of our financial situation requires that we move forward quickly,†Delta spokesman John Kennedy said last night.
Kennedy said that if such a motion were made to the bankruptcy court, the company would not ask for more than the $325 million already sought from the pilots.
Management apparently acted today because the talks were not progressing fast enough.
Delta provided the union another version of its position Monday night along with an ultimatum to reach a tentative agreement within three hours, according to union officials. Then this morning, the company told the union of its plans to go to the court, according to a voice mail to all pilots.
“Theoretically, this talking could have gone on for months, and the company is out of time,†said Mike Boyd, president of Colorado-based aviation consulting group The Boyd Group. “This is not like a normal negotiation – the company set the bottom line and that was it. This is not a time to play kabuki theatre at the bargaining table.â€
Once such a motion is made, a hearing involving both parties would be held between two and three weeks from the filing date. Then, the judge has up to 30 days to render a decision; with several criteria listed in the law as to what standards the company has to meet before the contract could be voided.
The two sides could still work out a voluntary deal in the meantime, as did United Airlines and its flight attendant union.
But if it no agreement is reached, and the judge decides on behalf of the company, Delta could impose the pay scales and work rules initially proposed at the hearing and in the filing.
That would be an interim solution however, and both sides would have to agree to make it permanent.
If such an agreement can’t be reached, the pilots might have the option of walking off the job, although a strike has never been legally tested in bankruptcy and such a move would certainly cripple – if not kill – the airline.
Experts said it is unclear whether such an action would be legal under the Railway Labor Act, which governs labor relations in the airline and railroad industries.
When asked if such a strike could be possible, Culp said that the union would “consider all legal remedies.â€
The $325 million in cuts that Delta wants from the pilots would include a 19.5 percent pay cut, according to one version of the company’s proposal. That would come on top of the $1 billion the union gave back late last year to stave off bankruptcy then – cuts that included a 32.5 percent pay cut for all pilots.
Delta pilots are paid between about $34,000 for a starting first officer to about $194,000 a year for a senior wide-body captain, although most mid-career pilots earn between $100,000 to $150,000 annually.
Earlier today, Kentucky Lt. Gov. Steve Pence met with Delta vice president of community affairs Doug Blissit at the airport in Hebron to get an update on Delta’s condition and to offer support on behalf of the state. Delta and its Erlanger-based subsidiary Comair plan to cut at least 1,000 jobs total and 26 percent of its flights from Cincinnati on Dec. 1.
Pence referred any specific questions about local job cuts to Delta, and said that no specific proposals as to state aid were discussed in the meeting.
“Delta is as important to Kentucky as Churchill Downs, Toyota or Lexmark,†said Pence. “We just wanted to see if there was anything that we could do for them … It’s a testament to the state when it can stick by companies in the bad times, and then we can reap the rewards of the expansions in the good times.â€
Delta said Blissit would not be available for comment.
E-mail [email protected]
There's some bad blood between the two sides right now. Largely due to Leo Mullin's and John Malone's leaderships - or lack thereof. Leo gave DALPA the 'a contract is a contract' line and then Malone decided to give payback to Grinstein when he asked for concessions by dragging the negotiations out forever.
Not sure I agree with this action or not. I think the pilots would agree to these concessions if their union leadership would play ball.
As for a strike - pilots aren't mechanics or other labor who can make the same dough doing something else. Major airline pilot strikes are usually very brief. These guys are used to a certain standard of living and don't like to not get paid.
Not sure I agree with this action or not. I think the pilots would agree to these concessions if their union leadership would play ball.
As for a strike - pilots aren't mechanics or other labor who can make the same dough doing something else. Major airline pilot strikes are usually very brief. These guys are used to a certain standard of living and don't like to not get paid.
You're kidding right? There is no way in hell the pilots would agree to these concessions as the company request stands today.
There is a very real possibility that the pilots will walk. I have already started lining up my next career. I won't make much less than what I would make after these pay cuts and I would be home every night. Pretty much every pilot I know I willing to walk and is already making plans for their next job.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,721
and UA and US.
There are absolutely thousands of pilots ready to go to work tomorrow... but they won't need to because the current DL pilots will give what the company has asked for even though ALPA has wasted time as if the company would change their mind.
There are absolutely thousands of pilots ready to go to work tomorrow... but they won't need to because the current DL pilots will give what the company has asked for even though ALPA has wasted time as if the company would change their mind.
luv2fly
Veteran
World,
Speaking as a DL pilot, I believe your opinion is way off base.
The company puts the value of the current proposal at 325 million. In reality the value has been estimated to be worth between 500 and 700 million. IMO, the negotiations have broken down because the company cannot quantify its proposal,and to date, has refused to do so.
Your remark"There are absolutely thousands of pilots ready to go to work tomorrow," is misleading. Certainly there are thousands of pilots out there, but there is no realistic way to train such an enormous number of replacement pilots in enough time to provide any relief in the event of a strike.
The scope provisions in DL's proposal will result in a large number of pilot furloughs. This will equate to an automatic "no" vote from those pilots. I believe the DL pilot scenario is much like what played out with the NW mechanics. There is simply no incentive to vote for a proposal that would ultimately call for you own careers demise.
I do not know if the pilots would go so far as to strike, but I do believe the pilots will not voluntarily agree to such cuts, especially since the it appears that the company's proposal in severely undervalued.
Alpa has not wasted the time. The company has not provided any numbers to quantify its proposal, and the pilots would be foolish to simply trust their estimates. IMO, the company will not be able to quantify their proposal to a judge. If I am wrong, they get their 325 million.
The company always had the intention of filing the 1113. A take it or leave it approach. I'll leave it up to the judge. I will not voluntarily agree to such an abberation of a contract. I will not voluntarily elect to destroy my profession. Let the judge decide.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #9
a ticker at the bottom of the CNN news flashed saying that as of today or very late last night that Delta has formally asked the ch11 court to force the paycuts on the pilots. if true, that sure sounds to be a lot of headaches for the pilots and pax if delta pilots do take action.
And as far a pilot strikes go, whats your definition of brief? Comair was several months, United in 1985 was over 30 days, the Eastern guys are still on strike. NW was out for two+ weeks.
The reason most pilot strikes are shorter is not because the pilots are greedy and just want to get paid. (like anyone likes not to get paid-yeah right, just those pilots being greedy again. :down: )
Its because the airline can't function in the short term without them. The pilots know this, managment knows this...so they come to an agreement quicker after a strike has begun. You just can't hire off the street and be flying planes the next day. Our recent recalls, having already flown at United, are needing a month of training to get requalified. Someone who never has set foot in the land of UAL would need longer.
Even AMR found out that F/A's are not so quickly replaced when they went on strike.
DC
Good luck to you guys....
DC
Michael, I work for DAL and walking out would be the worst outcome for you and alot of employees. I, too have a second career going (for the last 11 years) but we are not talking about retail wages here. All of us need to get over the wages that we FEEL we deserve but what the market and more importantly what the creditors demand. This kind of stupid talk will get all of us nowhere. If you feel that you are SOO mistreated, then take your second career and walk. But I have news for you. I have had a business for 11 years and it is alot harder on the outside to make your income, even after the paycut that will be imposed. ALPA still wants to uphold the profession? What a joke! Until the restructuring is completed in the ENTIRE industry, nothing will change. It is up to you to either piss away your entire flying career today or hold on until the restructuring is finished and good times return. A six figure income, or close to it is not easy to come by outside this industry.. :down:
And when the DAL pilots demanded United +1% back in 2001, they didn't quantify their demands either, except to say "WE DEMAND TOP PAY, OR ELSE".
I hope you guys do walk - That'll teach em that they can't mess with DALPA - We'll put everyone out of work!!
Sorry, but I disagree with you. I will not fly for 70K a year and be gone 20 days a month. Thats what the company proposal would do to me. I would rather make less money and be home every night. But, the bottom line is this.........until we make a stand, the company will keep coming back for more. I am prepared to make the stand now. Just my opinion, but I think the vast majority of the pilots feel the same.
Now, don't confuse my above comments with the absurb belief that we should not and will not take more cuts. I fully understand that we should and will take more cuts. But the current company proposal is so over the top its unbelievable. If it is determined to be legal, I will strike if the company tries to impose those conditions. Might it be a mistake? Sure, but I am willing to take the chance. In my humble opinion this job will decline to the point I am willing to take the chance. As I see it I have nothing to lose. And thats a sad commentary on the job status of a Delta pilot.
Fair enough, but there a hell of alot of sales people that make 60-70k per year that are gone from home that much. I sincerely hope the business that you have does what you want it to. I will say it again.. six figures requires a hell of alot more time outside this industry than inside. Good luck in your future endeavors...
The Comair pilots were making on average $30-40k per year. They had a lot to gain by holding out and very little to lose.
By comparison, Delta pilots make 3-4 times that on average. They cannot afford to hold out more than a week without seeing some major hits to their standard of living.
As for pilots 'accepting' the 1113c decision - they will not have any choice. If the judge says to do it then the pilots will either get to accept it or find another career - which for most will be far less lucrative.
By comparison, Delta pilots make 3-4 times that on average. They cannot afford to hold out more than a week without seeing some major hits to their standard of living.
As for pilots 'accepting' the 1113c decision - they will not have any choice. If the judge says to do it then the pilots will either get to accept it or find another career - which for most will be far less lucrative.
