Delta May Ask The Ch11 Court To

[robbedagain]

"Self-Help" = "Strike" = DL in Chapter 7 soon.

The Delta pilots will share the same legacy of Eastern Airline Mechanics - The work group that put the airline out of business.

I dont think the judge would allow the DELTA pilots to strike. If Delta takes a cue from US Air, then I can see them getting a positive response fromt he judge that would prohibit DAL Pilots from striking. I dont know if that is what the pilots want of want but it sounds like from reading they want a deal but DELTA is doing what US Air did to us ramp agents. during the 2 ch 11

 

[UALDC767]

And I will tell you...YES! Yes I do think that DL would be profitable right now at WN or FL's cost structure IF labor would also agree to the same productivity measures. Per effort, WN and FL pay LESS than the majors by far...forget the hourly rates and look at added job duties. This is no secret. Those airlines are offering the same fares but can do so with fewer employees. This isn't a management shortfall that the legacies haven't been able to do the same...as we have seen with NWA, they cannot cut staff w/o taking on a significant risk and cost burden through MONTHS and MONTHS of negotiations just to accomplish what makes the most business sense. Unions were created to protect employees from unethical management actions. Adjusting the business model to match the present (rather than the climate 30 years ago) and ultimately survive is not an unethical business decision...it is common business sense. It hurts everyone to take the paycuts but again...take a look at how lucky you have been vs. other industries and put things in perspective. And finally...think about the status of the industry. Is it really worth it to tear down all of the legacy carriers in the name of personal greed?

But wait a minute, excpet for DALPA and the dispatchers (i think it is them) all other employee groups at Delta are non union and don't have to agree to anything.. So in Delta's case, all that lack of productivity you claim is the employee's fault, is really managment's. They can and could have made themselves leaner/more productive a long time ago despite those pesky, non union, non negotiating, employees.

DC

 

[Ch. 12]

But wait a minute, excpet for DALPA and the dispatchers (i think it is them) all other employee groups at Delta are non union and don't have to agree to anything.. So in Delta's case, all that lack of productivity you claim is the employee's fault, is really managment's. They can and could have made themselves leaner/more productive a long time ago despite those pesky, non union, non negotiating, employees.

DC

It's no secret that DL is largely non-unionized but it is obviously the unions we are talking about here since they wouldn't have to negotiate with non-union employees. They would just get the cut I would think. There's obviously a large enough union presence to create a stalemate in compensation negotiations.

 

[luv2fly]

Certainly lower fuel prices, less capacity and better management would help. But even if you had all these things, your pay and benefits would still never reach your past highs. The cuts might not be so deep, but they'd be there nonetheless.

So you have two choices, you either work in reality or you can leave. But if you leave, don't be surprised to find that the real world is even worse....as many pilots already have.

Flyer I don't disagree with most of your assertions. The reality of the situation is that pay and benefits did have to be cut. The disagreement here is the amount of concessions involved. The company cannot quantify its requests. Would you expect the company to be able to explain how they are computing that figure, or do you accept it as arbitrary, because by the most conservative estimate it is undervalued by as much as 150 million annually?
I also do not disagree that concessions should have taken place earlier than they did after 9-11, but you cannot argue successfully that DL's $20 billion in debt is due to C2K. A portion, yes. Thus the 1 billion in annual concessions agreed to last year.

 

[WNrforlife]

"The (contract motion) is a clear declaration that management has failed," Moak said. "Unwilling to achieve a mutually agreeable solution through negotiations, their filing amounts to nothing less than an attempt to bully us into compliance.""

I wonder if Moak means that this "bullying" is similar to what the pilots did when they threatened to strike back in 2001 when the pilot group picketed and demanded United +1%. (or by gosh, we'll strike!!)

I guess it's true - what goes around, comes around.

 

[luv2fly]

luv,
you bet it's pattern bargaining - it's just now the companies get to do the whacking instead of being extorted for double digit increases year after year. sorry, pal, but I'm not terribly sorry. And I hear that Judge Prudence isn't real impressed w/ your tales of woe either. The cuts are coming and ALPA is just genuflecting so that its members feel like they are getting something for their dues.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe UA established w/ their BK court that, essentially, the Railway Labor Act and its CBA provisions are superseded by bankruptcy laws. Translation: DL probably knows they are in a position to extract as much as they want and are willing to do it. Given how far DL has fallen and the very fragile nature the company is in right now, I would expect them to do what it takes to turn the company around. Also, don't ever forget that DL always has to convince its non-union employees that they are better off NOT having a union. Membership has its penalties.

As I stated in my post, DL has sucessfully used pattern based bargaining just like ALPA did in the late 90's. I wouldn't expect you to be sorry in light of your stance on this issue. I didn't feel sorry for management when it worked to our advantage. The momentum now favors the ATA. Why all the drama about that statement?
As for the judge, who knows what to expect. Are you basing your statement on your professional legal opinion, or are you just offering another worthless opinion? Are you basing it off of court transcripts, because if you are, you will find scathing remarks directed at both sides. Or is it that you are privy to some inside information that you could enlighten us with? Would it make it you feel better if I said I do believe the judge will impose the company's proposal? Why then should I vote for it? If I vote for it, then our "do it once and do it right" management team will be back for more. How about the management team formerly known as " a contract is a contract"? Take your pick.
Both have failed. Why stop now?

 

[luv2fly]

And I will tell you...YES! Yes I do think that DL would be profitable right now at WN or FL's cost structure IF labor would also agree to the same productivity measures. Per effort, WN and FL pay LESS than the majors by far...forget the hourly rates and look at added job duties. This is no secret. Those airlines are offering the same fares but can do so with fewer employees. This isn't a management shortfall that the legacies haven't been able to do the same...as we have seen with NWA, they cannot cut staff w/o taking on a significant risk and cost burden through MONTHS and MONTHS of negotiations just to accomplish what makes the most business sense. Unions were created to protect employees from unethical management actions. Adjusting the business model to match the present (rather than the climate 30 years ago) and ultimately survive is not an unethical business decision...it is common business sense. It hurts everyone to take the paycuts but again...take a look at how lucky you have been vs. other industries and put things in perspective. And finally...think about the status of the industry. Is it really worth it to tear down all of the legacy carriers in the name of personal greed?

Ok, lets discuss productivity. I cannot address other employee groups at DL as I am not familair with their productivity relative to LCC's. I will however offer you that the pilot groups at all FAR Part 121 carriers are bound by the same flight time restrictions. Domestically restricted to 1000 hours per year, 100 per month, and 30 hrs per week. If you fly approximately 83 hours per month, you will "time out" by years end. The last concessionary package instituted a preferential bidding system otherwise know as PBS which attempts to maximize a line of time awarded to a pilot on a monthly basis. For example, the average line value of a B767 captain this month was 82 hours. If you want more productivity than that, you would have to petition the FAA. Some of you might argue that some of those hours are credit hours and that is true, but once again I would offer that very few trips contain credit time anymore, and scheduling a max duty day is not the responsibility of the pilot group.
What additional productivity measures are you referring to that DL pilots could offer to match WN in light of what I just explained? I am not sure I understand what you are trying to imply.

 

[Ch. 12]

Ok, lets discuss productivity. I cannot address other employee groups at DL as I am not familair with their productivity relative to LCC's. I will however offer you that the pilot groups at all FAR Part 121 carriers are bound by the same flight time restrictions. Domestically restricted to 1000 hours per year, 100 per month, and 30 hrs per week. If you fly approximately 83 hours per month, you will "time out" by years end. The last concessionary package instituted a preferential bidding system otherwise know as PBS which attempts to maximize a line of time awarded to a pilot on a monthly basis. For example, the average line value of a B767 captain this month was 82 hours. If you want more productivity than that, you would have to petition the FAA. Some of you might argue that some of those hours are credit hours and that is true, but once again I would offer that very few trips contain credit time anymore, and scheduling a max duty day is not the responsibility of the pilot group.
What additional productivity measures are you referring to that DL pilots could offer to match WN in light of what I just explained? I am not sure I understand what you are trying to imply.

Not flight time b/c obviously that is restricted and the more flight time, the more $$, right? No...I mean other functions. I am not a pilot contract guru but do know that it has always been that WN's staff is asked to do more outside of the routine legacy functions...this would be in addition to flight time. I don't think any of us can dispute that WN's contracts do require more effort from the employees (though this is getting to be less and less the case...WN's lessening strength) and don't have as many carve outs for duties they cannot perform or that a status x person has to perform. They seem more aligned with the old way of going to work and actually wanting to put forth full effort rather than wanting to build in protections that diminish productivity. If we could line up the contracts...entire contracts (b/c the little snippets that keep showing up on these boards don't convey the entire picture), I'm sure we could see where there is extra productivity in place in WN's contract. Don't take this as a "you are lazy" argument b/c you definitely are not and the contract inefficiencies have been negotiated over time...in the best of times. We all need to soul-search these days to see if our personal objectives actually match the needs of recovery for an ailing industry and if they no longer match (due to several years of industry decline) then it may no longer be the right industry for us. Again...I would truly hate to see another giant go down and if the majority cannot realize that the world has moved on and the industry is not the same as it used to be (i.e. now requires personal change), that is exactly what will happen. I know this is a tough time for you and all other employees affected but it must also be a rational time. Emotions and memories cannot guide our choices now.

 

[UALDC767]

It's no secret that DL is largely non-unionized but it is obviously the unions we are talking about here since they wouldn't have to negotiate with non-union employees. They would just get the cut I would think. There's obviously a large enough union presence to create a stalemate in compensation negotiations.

The only union of any size is DALPA, the pilots. Thats around 7,000 or so employees. The dispatcher make up maybe 200.

So because of @7200, the other 50,000+ are not as productive as SW or FL? Yeah right!!!

Delta's issue is not the pilots, or unions.

DC

 

[Ch. 12]

The only union of any size is DALPA, the pilots. Thats around 7,000 or so employees. The dispatcher make up maybe 200.

So because of @7200, the other 50,000+ are not as productive as SW or FL? Yeah right!!!

Delta's issue is not the pilots, or unions.

DC

This discussion is about the pilots. I have kept in the context of that and never stated that the pilot group is the source of DL's woes. But as the highest paid employees outside of senior mgmt, they make up a much higher proportion of the workforce expenses than the headcount you displayed. We're talking pilots here, but on a grander scheme, we're talking $$ and not ##.

 

[Fly]

Last year the pilots gave a HUGE $$ giveback to DL to avoid bankruptcy. Now they want more? How about fixing the problems and leave the pilots out of it?

 

[Ch. 12]

Last year the pilots gave a HUGE $$ giveback to DL to avoid bankruptcy. Now they want more? How about fixing the problems and leave the pilots out of it?

Last year EVERYBODY gave a HUGE $$ payback in the hopes of avoiding BK. Since then, the industry has only gone further downhill thanks to the oil industry's lucrative capitalization on a table set for them. How about everybody chip in...including those making the most and well above market averages across industries. Fares came down with dereg and have stayed down as airline demand is VERY elastic however, wages have not come down. Airline labor and pilots have long enjoyed a wage far in excess to comparitive jobs and reality is really hurting right now.

So again...lets leave NOBODY out of it b/c no group is any more special than the next. It takes all of 'em to make it work but only one group to make it collapse.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Let's not forget that the reason DL is in the shape it is in now was because the pilots were convinced they would not give a dime pre-BK until DL was on the verge of BK. Well, that day arrived, DL was horribly weakened financially and then, what do you know but fuel prices started on their ascent to the heavens just about as soon as the fall 2004 concessions were in place. DL didn't have the opportunity to recover financially from the damage of delayed concessions. None of the airlines have been able to successfully predict how far the bottom will drop and it has been continually dropping since 2001. The only airline that has successfully managed to navigate the period in relatively decent financial shape is AA and it is because they cut deep and they cut early. All of the AA employees that were moaning a couple years ago are probably pretty glad they gave when they did and that their company had a chance to recover after the concessions were in place. CO can't really be considered to have successfully navigated the post 9/11 environment in the same sense as AA because CO's costs were already much lower - and are actually now positioned to be in the upper tier of the industry. In the airline industry, there is no assurance when the next financial crisis will come and the only way to counter it is with a hoard of cash on hand to buy you time to manage through it.

I agree that legacy carrier productivity is pretty close to reaching the levels of LCCs and when the salary component is considered, pilot costs should be pretty comparable across all US airlines.

As for non-pilot productivity, DL's nonunion employees have long been much more productive than other legacy airlines. CO reached similar levels of productivity in the 90s and NW got there through aggressive employee cuts. Given that other carriers have the opportunity to get rid of some of the non-productive components of their union contracts through BK or the threat of it, there probably won't be as much of a gap between legacy carriers as there once was.

And, luv, I am aware that Judge Beatty has been scornful of anyone with big bank accounts or salaries. Problem is the pilots are the only group in that category that the company is going after. In fact, I'm rather certain that DL mgmt has already decided that the hundreds of millions of dollars in bankruptcy costs will come out of the pilot's hides since they certainly don't believe they would be camping out in NYC if the pilots had been a bit more cooperative a few years ago. Sorry, bud, but the good times have ended. The pilots will accept what the company wants to pay them at this point.

 

[michael707767]

You do realize that if you strike, you will put the company out of business. That's typical of ALPA - They don't negotiate, they extort.

actually I disagree. If we strike, Delta could come back the next day and agree to a proposal we would accept. As I said, I personally do not think we will come through this without another pay cut. Nor should we. So the debate is over how much of a pay cut should we take. So, you say we would be putting Delta out of business, fine. I say its Delta managment and their over the top request which would put Delta out of business.

Bottom line to me is this...........With all the cuts Delta has made, company wide, if the gap between the company and union proposals is the difference between Delta being able to make it or not, then we are doomed anyway.

Last year EVERYBODY gave a HUGE $$ payback in the hopes of avoiding BK.

give me a break. How much did any other labor group at Delta give last year? A 10 maybe 15% cut? The pilots took a 32.5% cut in pay rates and gave up other items totalling a billion dollars a year. No one else has given as much as the pilots and they are still looking to the pilots for the bulk of their cuts. Sorry, I won't agree to that.

I dont think the judge would allow the DELTA pilots to strike. If Delta takes a cue from US Air, then I can see them getting a positive response fromt he judge that would prohibit DAL Pilots from striking. I dont know if that is what the pilots want of want but it sounds like from reading they want a deal but DELTA is doing what US Air did to us ramp agents. during the 2 ch 11

First of all, no judge ever told the USAir pilots they could not strike. A deal was reached before it got to that poing. I don't think a bankruptcy judge has the power to prevent a strike. The issue is kinda fuzzy, but I ultimately believe the right to strike will be upheld. Its simply not fair to allow management the option of self help (imposing a contract) while denying that right to labor. I think a legal battle will ensue before the issue is settled, but I think two things. First, as I said, I think the right to strike will ultimately be upheld. Second........does it really matter? If the pilots signal their intent to strike and go to court to fight for that right, would you buy a ticket on Delta? If you were a bank would you loan Delta anymore money? If you had lent money would you continue to let Delta use that money, or would you call the loan? If an agreement is not reached, I think the ability to actually strike is irrelevant. If we signal the intent to strike I think that will be enought to drive Delta under. So hang your hat on the judge. Lets see what happens.

 

[Vikedog64]

actually I disagree. If we strike, Delta could come back the next day and agree to a proposal we would accept. As I said, I personally do not think we will come through this without another pay cut. Nor should we. So the debate is over how much of a pay cut should we take. So, you say we would be putting Delta out of business, fine. I say its Delta managment and their over the top request which would put Delta out of business.

Bottom line to me is this...........With all the cuts Delta has made, company wide, if the gap between the company and union proposals is the difference between Delta being able to make it or not, then we are doomed anyway.
give me a break. How much did any other labor group at Delta give last year? A 10 maybe 15% cut? The pilots took a 32.5% cut in pay rates and gave up other items totalling a billion dollars a year. No one else has given as much as the pilots and they are still looking to the pilots for the bulk of their cuts. Sorry, I won't agree to that.
First of all, no judge ever told the USAir pilots they could not strike. A deal was reached before it got to that poing. I don't think a bankruptcy judge has the power to prevent a strike. The issue is kinda fuzzy, but I ultimately believe the right to strike will be upheld. Its simply not fair to allow management the option of self help (imposing a contract) while denying that right to labor. I think a legal battle will ensue before the issue is settled, but I think two things. First, as I said, I think the right to strike will ultimately be upheld. Second........does it really matter? If the pilots signal their intent to strike and go to court to fight for that right, would you buy a ticket on Delta? If you were a bank would you loan Delta anymore money? If you had lent money would you continue to let Delta use that money, or would you call the loan? If an agreement is not reached, I think the ability to actually strike is irrelevant. If we signal the intent to strike I think that will be enought to drive Delta under. So hang your hat on the judge. Lets see what happens.

Michael. as F/A's, we gave 10% in salary but a h--l of alot more in benefit cuts, pref bidding, etc. Quit feeling sorry for yourself. Everything was great when Contract 2000 was signed but now that everything has changed, you want to cry about it. Quit whining or quit DAL. :down: