Delta May Ask The Ch11 Court To

[luv2fly]

The Comair pilots were making on average $30-40k per year. They had a lot to gain by holding out and very little to lose.

By comparison, Delta pilots make 3-4 times that on average. They cannot afford to hold out more than a week without seeing some major hits to their standard of living.

As for pilots 'accepting' the 1113c decision - they will not have any choice. If the judge says to do it then the pilots will either get to accept it or find another career - which for most will be far less lucrative.

An awful simplistic, and inaccurate post. Comair and ASA RJ captains make approximately $100-$115 per hour for a 70 seat RJ. I don't know of any DL pilots making 300 to 400 per hour. As an example, the company's current proposed 100 seat captain position is roughly $10 per hour less than that of the 70 seat RJ captain at Comair.
If a judge imposes a contract on DL pilots, self help becomes an option. You left that choice out.
If you want to discuss facts, then do so, but spare us from your bogus anti-pilot rhetoric.. You obviously have no true knowledge of these negotiations.

 

[TheDog2004]

An awful simplistic, and inaccurate post. Comair and ASA RJ captains make approximately $100-$115 per hour for a 70 seat RJ. I don't know of any DL pilots making 300 to 400 per hour. As an example, the company's current proposed 100 seat captain position is roughly $10 per hour less than that of the 70 seat RJ captain at Comair.
If a judge imposes a contract on DL pilots, self help becomes an option. You left that choice out.
If you want to discuss facts, then do so, but spare us from your bogus anti-pilot rhetoric.. You obviously have no true knowledge of these negotiations.

It's not simplistic and you are misinformed. Comair and RJ pilots didn't make 100 bucks per hour before the strike and now only 14 year captains make that much on the largest aircraft they fly. First officers top out at $49 per hour after year 8 and go no further. It was the strike that got them what they make now for a 70 seat RJ. Before the strike no Comair pilot made more than $50k a year IIRC. Most made far less.

I actually agreed with the Comair pilots when they struck becausue they were gortesquely underpaid for the services they provided for Delta.

You militant union clowns like to label anyone who doesn't tote the party line as anti-pilot or anti-anything. I have stated clearly that Delta imposing the terms on the pilots is not an action I agree with. How does that make me anti-pilot? It is true that the pilots won't be able to hold out for long if they strike. you can't find many jobs that pay the same as a major airline pilot.

Some might be able to find equivalent work but the vast majority will take a far greater hit in pay and benefits than what Delta is seeking to impose.

 

[WNrforlife]

Sorry, but I disagree with you. I will not fly for 70K a year and be gone 20 days a month. Thats what the company proposal would do to me. I would rather make less money and be home every night. But, the bottom line is this.........until we make a stand, the company will keep coming back for more. I am prepared to make the stand now. Just my opinion, but I think the vast majority of the pilots feel the same.

Now, don't confuse my above comments with the absurb belief that we should not and will not take more cuts. I fully understand that we should and will take more cuts. But the current company proposal is so over the top its unbelievable. If it is determined to be legal, I will strike if the company tries to impose those conditions. Might it be a mistake? Sure, but I am willing to take the chance. In my humble opinion this job will decline to the point I am willing to take the chance. As I see it I have nothing to lose. And thats a sad commentary on the job status of a Delta pilot.

You do realize that if you strike, you will put the company out of business. That's typical of ALPA - They don't negotiate, they extort.

 

[luv2fly]

It's not simplistic and you are misinformed. Comair and RJ pilots didn't make 100 bucks per hour before the strike and now only 14 year captains make that much on the largest aircraft they fly. First officers top out at $49 per hour after year 8 and go no further. It was the strike that got them what they make now for a 70 seat RJ. Before the strike no Comair pilot made more than $50k a year IIRC. Most made far less.

I actually agreed with the Comair pilots when they struck becausue they were gortesquely underpaid for the services they provided for Delta.

You militant union clowns like to label anyone who doesn't tote the party line as anti-pilot or anti-anything. I have stated clearly that Delta imposing the terms on the pilots is not an action I agree with. How does that make me anti-pilot? It is true that the pilots won't be able to hold out for long if they strike. you can't find many jobs that pay the same as a major airline pilot.

Some might be able to find equivalent work but the vast majority will take a far greater hit in pay and benefits than what Delta is seeking to impose.

First of all, are you a pilot for DL or Comair?
Second, lets compare apples to apples here. You clearly stated as a matter of fact that DL pilots earn 3 to 4 times what a Comair pilot makes. How are you arriving at that statement? Are you comparing a 12 year 777 captain rate to a junior copilot at Comair??
Lets take a 737 classic and compare it to a CRJ 700. The current configuration of the DL 737-200 having 100 seats and the CRJ 700 with 70 seats. The second quote of numbers represents the additional 19% paycut.

Current 12 yr captain rate , Current 3 year FO

B737-200 $156 ($126) $90 ($72)
CRJ 700 $115 $42

Three to four times the pay?? Now to the next one.

Before the strike no Comair pilot made more than $50k a year
Really? I made more than 50k a year as an ASA pilot for at least two years, and that was as a Brasilia captain only half way up the longevity scale. The previous Comair contract and ASA contract were comparable. Don't let this "militant union clown" stand in the way of your cold facts.

Some might be able to find equivalent work but the vast majority will take a far greater hit in pay and benefits than what Delta is seeking to impose.

Now lets discuss your ideology that DL pilots do not understand the consequences of a strike. Are you truly trying to assert that most DL pilots would not understand the consequences of a strike? I understand them quite well. I have been furloughed recently. I know what it is like "out there". Thanks for your concern.

 

[Raizin_Cain]

If the pilots were to accept the cut Delta is asking for ,where would they end up compared to the rest of the industry? I can tell you that after the cuts maintanence has taken this year, we are 2nd from the bottom. Barely above United and behind Air-Tran and Jet -Blue. If this is where the pilots might fall with siad pay-cut, why are you complaining . Or are you better than the rest of Deltas employees ? :unsure:

 

[luv2fly]

If the pilots were to accept the cut Delta is asking for ,where would they end up compared to the rest of the industry? I can tell you that after the cuts maintanence has taken this year, we are 2nd from the bottom. Barely above United and behind Air-Tran and Jet -Blue. If this is where the pilots might fall with siad pay-cut, why are you complaining . Or are you better than the rest of Deltas employees ? :unsure:

Current Airtran 737-700 rate is $153/hr. Proposed DL rate for a 737-800 is $140/hr.
Current Airtran B717 rate is $153/hr. Proposed DL rate for a 737-200 is $126/hr
This discussion has absolutely nothing to do with one employee group being better than another.
Since you are in MTC, can you tell me what a senior lead makes for DL airlines?

 

[Vikedog64]

Current Airtran 737-700 rate is $153/hr. Proposed DL rate for a 737-800 is $140/hr.
Current Airtran B717 rate is $153/hr. Proposed DL rate for a 737-200 is $126/hr
This discussion has absolutely nothing to do with one employee group being better than another.
Since you are in MTC, can you tell me what a senior lead makes for DL airlines?

But you are leaving out one fact. Airtran and most of the LCC's are making money. For how long, who knows? DAL really has no choice but to bring ALL costs down to get through this. Until we do, nothing will improve. I had a employee for CSX railroad on my flight last week. Basicially he said that the airlines are where the rr industry was 10-12 years ago. Salary and benefits took hits until the consolidation of the industry occured. Now, there are 3 major rr companies and they are making money and benefits are some of the best around, his words not mine. We all have to think long term here, IMO..

 

[luv2fly]

Vike,

What is going on here is called pattern based bargaining. It was used sucessfully by airline unions in the profitable late 90's, and it is now being employed by the ATA. One airline successfully lowers the bar on the industry standard employee wages and the others rush to lower that rate even further. At some point the floor will be reached. IMO, it has been reached. I will not vote to fodder this industry any more than it already is. GG has forced a hand that nobody wants to consider. The right to self help. I would look for a strike vote to be taken shortly. Lets hope a negotiated settlement can be reached. I am not too optimistic.

 

[WNrforlife]

Vike,

What is going on here is called pattern based bargaining. It was used sucessfully by airline unions in the profitable late 90's, and it is now being employed by the ATA. One airline successfully lowers the bar on the industry standard employee wages and the others rush to lower that rate even further. At some point the floor will be reached. IMO, it has been reached. I will not vote to fodder this industry any more than it already is. GG has forced a hand that nobody wants to consider. The right to self help. I would look for a strike vote to be taken shortly. Lets hope a negotiated settlement can be reached. I am not too optimistic.

"Self-Help" = "Strike" = DL in Chapter 7 soon.

The Delta pilots will share the same legacy of Eastern Airline Mechanics - The work group that put the airline out of business.

 

[Ch. 12]

Vike,

What is going on here is called pattern based bargaining. It was used sucessfully by airline unions in the profitable late 90's, and it is now being employed by the ATA. One airline successfully lowers the bar on the industry standard employee wages and the others rush to lower that rate even further. At some point the floor will be reached. IMO, it has been reached. I will not vote to fodder this industry any more than it already is. GG has forced a hand that nobody wants to consider. The right to self help. I would look for a strike vote to be taken shortly. Lets hope a negotiated settlement can be reached. I am not too optimistic.

Who cares what other carriers are making b/c they will ALL have to come down. In case you haven't noticed...the INDUSTRY is in a crisis and part of that is due to the fact that wages (not just labor) are mcuh higher than comparable positions in other industries while, at the same time, yields are down. Passengers will not pay more so costs must come in line.

As far as lowering the bar goes...if it is stated that $x in savings is needed but through the wonderful negotiations, we all know that it is only a small % of $x that is given...of course there will be multiple rounds of cuts! And each round gets worse b/c the $$ keeps flying out the door since the needed cuts were never achieved. That is where this constant re-negotiation comes into play.

So we all have to get off the "I don't want to be lowest in the industry" b/c all carriers will be joining soon, trust me. And if they don't...this industry is quite doomed. I tend to think that it is doomed b/c of this ideology we find on these boards and that is too bad. The industry will turn into the banking industry where the little new guys are buying out the mainstay giants. B6 buys out AA, FL buys out NW, etc (just an example...not what I think will necessarily happen).

So let's get off the high-horses and realize that we all have made more than we could have in similar positions in other industries and there has to be a reality check. Yes it is a hard one to swallow and it definitely hurts the ol' pocketbook but WNforLife says it best...do you want to be the next glorious carrier that is nothing more than a "RememberDeltaAirLines" web page where we all swap nostalgic stories about our past lives? It's sad that it happend to PanAm, Eastern, and TWA...I would hate to see it happen to Delta and Northwest.

I wish everyone the best and TRULY wish that people would try to see the big picture and realize that it isn't just about you and your timeshare in Hawaii. It is about the livlihoods of tens of thousands of people...many whom can't even afford the cab fare from the airport to your timeshare.

 

[luv2fly]

My timeshare in Hawaii? News to me. Would you mind clueing me in on where it is because I have vacation coming up.
There is no high horse being ridden here. It is about an abuse of labor and a historically poorly managed industry. An industry that cannot price its product appropiately. Tell me, do you think DL airlines would be profitable right now if we had WN or Airtran's employee cost structure in place? Do you believe that these proposed employee concessions will lead to DL erasing more than 20 billion dollars in debt. The fact is as long as overcapacity and energy costs remain an issue, DL will continue to lose money. The only thing the management of this company has demonstrated is its ability to scapegoat its woes on labor, more specifically, the pilot group. With this leadership, we have no plan. We have no future.
If DL airlines cannot compete, then let it fail. That is the problem with this industry. It is a matter of who can substain the most losses for the longest time. What this industry needs is a healthy dose of liquidations. It appears that DL may very well be the first.

Link

 

[luv2fly]

duplicate post

 

[DLFlyer31]

The only thing the management of this company has demonstrated is its ability to scapegoat its woes on labor, more specifically, the pilot group. With this leadership, we have no plan. We have no future.
this industry needs is a healthy dose of liquidations.

Link

You aren't being abused by management....rather you are being brought down to reality. For many decades, pilots of major airlines (and other airline labor groups) had a combined salary/benefit/workrule package that was way out of line with reality. Deregulation brought that to an end, however it has taken a few decades for the effects of deregulation to really be felt.

As you mentioned, unions used pattern bargaining to drive wages up to unsustainable levels in the late 90's. The raise you got in 2001 was completely unaffordable for Delta. Even without 9/11, DL would have hemmoraghed cash. Even if the booming late 90's had continued, DL wouldn't have been able to make money under your 2001 contract....that's how far out of line you were.

You complain about DL's debt, well guess what, some of that debt was taken so that you could remain the "highest paid" pilots in the world for the next three years after 9/11. DALPA's stubborness and lack of leadership in the post 9/11 environment doomed you to this fate.

Certainly lower fuel prices, less capacity and better management would help. But even if you had all these things, your pay and benefits would still never reach your past highs. The cuts might not be so deep, but they'd be there nonetheless.

So you have two choices, you either work in reality or you can leave. But if you leave, don't be surprised to find that the real world is even worse....as many pilots already have.

 

[WorldTraveler]

luv,
you bet it's pattern bargaining - it's just now the companies get to do the whacking instead of being extorted for double digit increases year after year. sorry, pal, but I'm not terribly sorry. And I hear that Judge Prudence isn't real impressed w/ your tales of woe either. The cuts are coming and ALPA is just genuflecting so that its members feel like they are getting something for their dues.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe UA established w/ their BK court that, essentially, the Railway Labor Act and its CBA provisions are superseded by bankruptcy laws. Translation: DL probably knows they are in a position to extract as much as they want and are willing to do it. Given how far DL has fallen and the very fragile nature the company is in right now, I would expect them to do what it takes to turn the company around. Also, don't ever forget that DL always has to convince its non-union employees that they are better off NOT having a union. Membership has its penalties.

 

[Ch. 12]

My timeshare in Hawaii? News to me. Would you mind clueing me in on where it is because I have vacation coming up.
There is no high horse being ridden here. It is about an abuse of labor and a historically poorly managed industry. An industry that cannot price its product appropiately. Tell me, do you think DL airlines would be profitable right now if we had WN or Airtran's employee cost structure in place? Do you believe that these proposed employee concessions will lead to DL erasing more than 20 billion dollars in debt. The fact is as long as overcapacity and energy costs remain an issue, DL will continue to lose money. The only thing the management of this company has demonstrated is its ability to scapegoat its woes on labor, more specifically, the pilot group. With this leadership, we have no plan. We have no future.
If DL airlines cannot compete, then let it fail. That is the problem with this industry. It is a matter of who can substain the most losses for the longest time. What this industry needs is a healthy dose of liquidations. It appears that DL may very well be the first.

Link

You must either be truly naive or have been locked in an economic vacuum for the past century to not understand that it isn't a management decision to price at the current levels. The consumer is not willing to pay any more and that is evident everytime airlines try to raise fares...they lose bookings. The Internet has only aided by making fares completely transparent so it is impossible to see higher fares if the market doesn't warrant.

And I will tell you...YES! Yes I do think that DL would be profitable right now at WN or FL's cost structure IF labor would also agree to the same productivity measures. Per effort, WN and FL pay LESS than the majors by far...forget the hourly rates and look at added job duties. This is no secret. Those airlines are offering the same fares but can do so with fewer employees. This isn't a management shortfall that the legacies haven't been able to do the same...as we have seen with NWA, they cannot cut staff w/o taking on a significant risk and cost burden through MONTHS and MONTHS of negotiations just to accomplish what makes the most business sense. Unions were created to protect employees from unethical management actions. Adjusting the business model to match the present (rather than the climate 30 years ago) and ultimately survive is not an unethical business decision...it is common business sense. It hurts everyone to take the paycuts but again...take a look at how lucky you have been vs. other industries and put things in perspective. And finally...think about the status of the industry. Is it really worth it to tear down all of the legacy carriers in the name of personal greed?