eolesen
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In other words, the quote you've been attributing to me repeatedly probably doesn't even exist.
Delta, pilots reach contract deal early
- Thread starter 2BlacknBlue
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In other words, the quote you've been attributing to me repeatedly probably doesn't even exist.
QA4Jet-A
Veteran
Gentlemen, While your continuing dialogue is entertaining to a point, what does it have to do with the Threaded Subject?
BoeingBoy
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Actually WT introduced a lot of topics to this thread...
And even a "see, I was right"...re:"as I suggested"
And then made it clear that anyone is free to respond to any comments on a public forum...
How many times has WT injected his usual "DL is great" essays into all kinds of threads?
Jim
And even a "see, I was right"...re:"as I suggested"
And then made it clear that anyone is free to respond to any comments on a public forum...
How many times has WT injected his usual "DL is great" essays into all kinds of threads?
Jim
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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And why does it really bother you whether DL is great or not, and if they aren't why can't you address THAT subject instead of launching into personal attacks of the messenger - as if that will change whether DL succeeds or not?
Has it occurred to you that perhaps part of the reason I am so emboldened to tell you how great DL is because you are part of a group of people who are so hell-bent on discrediting me?
DL is on the verge of separating itself more from the rest of the network carrier segment - and many carriers overall - than has been the case in decades, if ever. I could throw that all up in your face or we could debate what is going on in the industry on its own merits, irrespective of the messenger.
My question, E, remains what would be served by throwing one more log on the fire? In looking through posts, I found several things that I could throw back at you, but I'm not going to do it because it serves no purpose. And yes, it most certainly exists, there are things that people say or write that you never forget - and that was one of those moments.
The high road seems the right place to go, doesn't it?
And the reality is that there are people that are interested in the subject at hand.
The refinery decision will take months to evaluate. For this week, the topic will likely be the pilot agreement and the doors it opens - or not.
Has it occurred to you that perhaps part of the reason I am so emboldened to tell you how great DL is because you are part of a group of people who are so hell-bent on discrediting me?
DL is on the verge of separating itself more from the rest of the network carrier segment - and many carriers overall - than has been the case in decades, if ever. I could throw that all up in your face or we could debate what is going on in the industry on its own merits, irrespective of the messenger.
My question, E, remains what would be served by throwing one more log on the fire? In looking through posts, I found several things that I could throw back at you, but I'm not going to do it because it serves no purpose. And yes, it most certainly exists, there are things that people say or write that you never forget - and that was one of those moments.
The high road seems the right place to go, doesn't it?
And the reality is that there are people that are interested in the subject at hand.
The refinery decision will take months to evaluate. For this week, the topic will likely be the pilot agreement and the doors it opens - or not.
eolesen
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- Jul 23, 2003
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Tim, I'm sure it's easy for you to say "take the high road" **AFTER** you chose to make an accusation and now can't back up what you claimed I said.
You've made a serious allegation -- repeatedly in the past two weeks -- that I've claimed to be the last word on these forums as though they're my personal domain. Having been on these forums for well over a decade, I can't recall ever making that far reaching of a statement.
You want to take the high road? Prove your accusation, or retract what you've said if you can't prove it.
That's the high road.
But just pretending it wasn't said? Go read the story about the Rabbi, the gossiper, and the pillow.
I'm more than happy to go to the moderating team and request that those statements be treated as slander and libel, but the high road dictates I give you the ability to prove me yourself right before labeling you as a liar.
luv2fly
Veteran
In regards to the original topic, I believe that delta will not go after the 717. Look to airbus to provide a more compelling offer with the 319.
This TA will most likely be passed on to the membership by the MEC. If history repeats itself, which I think it will, it will past by a narrow majority.
Then we will know what DL really wants..... part of AA or JB/Alaska?
This TA will most likely be passed on to the membership by the MEC. If history repeats itself, which I think it will, it will past by a narrow majority.
Then we will know what DL really wants..... part of AA or JB/Alaska?
Kev3188
Veteran
This seems to go against most of the "talk" going 'round. What makes you think that the 319's will win out? (Honest question)
eolesen
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There's definitely an argument in favor of 319's. They're already on the property, can easily be swapped into the crew rotations without any ramifications, and would show up with a warranty and maintenance halo.
Bringing on another small subfleet just complicates things when it comes to crew quals, rotables, catering equipment, etc...
The 717 swap offers some time to market and a lower cost of ownership. Whether or not that remains enough to offset the additional complexity remains to be seen.
In addition to B6 or AS, don't forget that F9 is also up for sale...
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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E,
It is precisely when you control the power but choose not to use it that one demonstrates their leadership. There have been years of territory wars on this board between me and you. The question is what is the value of continuing them. I COULD post the comment in which you argued that this was your forum and you didn't want me getting the last word, but the best way for you to prove that that quote never existed is to discuss the issues on the basis of issues instead of attacking the participants or attempting to shame people to the point they will leave the board.
Relevant to the topic,
there could be a case for adding the 319s, but the whole value of the 717 is its fuel economy due to its relatively light weight. The 319 has the highest fuel burn of any aircraft in its size class. The 717 has enough range for the vast majority of the routes on which it would be used on the east coast; the 319s already exist in the fleet so they can be used where necessary.
The 717 will not be a small subfleet; DL is apparently telling WN it wants the whole FL 717 fleet which would be large enough to create a lot of efficiencies. Further, the 717 has commonality with alot of other McD-D fleets and DL could attempt to maximize those commonalities.
Price is clearly a consideration, but let's not forget that DL is undoubtedly attempting to play Airbus vs. Boeing. DL was reported ticked off because A gave AA such good prices on the 320s so DL turned around and ordered the 739ERs at a very hefty discount. DL has been battling the Ex-Im bank - a contest which it lost - but its purpose may have been as much to use that contest as a tool to obtain deeper discounts from Boeing - or Airbus. DL still has to make a decision regarding widebody fleet replacement, even if much of it won't be made for years to come. Don't underestimate the importance and significance of this relatively small deal regarding the 717s or 319s in light of the larger widebody deal. The 319s could indeed be chosen and Airbus could make pricing attractive enough to overcome some of those obstacles including the heavier weight vs. the 717s.
I doubt if DL has any interest in buying F9. DL is happy to see F9 continue with the meltdown at DEN that impacts UA and WN.
Indications are that loads on the expanded LGA flying are very strong considering only half of the hub has been put in place. DL recognizes that its ability to become the dominant airline in NYC requires it to have the seats in the market necessary to shift demand to DL. The 320/M80 and above is too large for many of these routes. Many of the CR7/9 routes could easily use larger aircraft - and we aren't in peak season or have all of the pieces of the hub in place. Pilots are likely to be alot less concerned with the CR7/9s if they are being used to smaller cities from hubs rather than on key routes such as LGA to DFW/IAH.
Of course it all depends on what is in the pilot contract... DL has stated they want to rework the DCI fleet and significantly reduce 50 seaters, which would have a dramatic impact on consolidated CASM. The pilots seem to think DL is wanting to swap out a bunch of 50 seaters - perhaps the Pinnacle fleet - for larger RJs - but everyone recognizes that DL will only be allowed to do that if it is essentially ASM neutral and there is a significant increase in flying for DL mainline crews.
I suspect before the week is out, the pieces will start to fall into place.
It is precisely when you control the power but choose not to use it that one demonstrates their leadership. There have been years of territory wars on this board between me and you. The question is what is the value of continuing them. I COULD post the comment in which you argued that this was your forum and you didn't want me getting the last word, but the best way for you to prove that that quote never existed is to discuss the issues on the basis of issues instead of attacking the participants or attempting to shame people to the point they will leave the board.
Relevant to the topic,
there could be a case for adding the 319s, but the whole value of the 717 is its fuel economy due to its relatively light weight. The 319 has the highest fuel burn of any aircraft in its size class. The 717 has enough range for the vast majority of the routes on which it would be used on the east coast; the 319s already exist in the fleet so they can be used where necessary.
The 717 will not be a small subfleet; DL is apparently telling WN it wants the whole FL 717 fleet which would be large enough to create a lot of efficiencies. Further, the 717 has commonality with alot of other McD-D fleets and DL could attempt to maximize those commonalities.
Price is clearly a consideration, but let's not forget that DL is undoubtedly attempting to play Airbus vs. Boeing. DL was reported ticked off because A gave AA such good prices on the 320s so DL turned around and ordered the 739ERs at a very hefty discount. DL has been battling the Ex-Im bank - a contest which it lost - but its purpose may have been as much to use that contest as a tool to obtain deeper discounts from Boeing - or Airbus. DL still has to make a decision regarding widebody fleet replacement, even if much of it won't be made for years to come. Don't underestimate the importance and significance of this relatively small deal regarding the 717s or 319s in light of the larger widebody deal. The 319s could indeed be chosen and Airbus could make pricing attractive enough to overcome some of those obstacles including the heavier weight vs. the 717s.
I doubt if DL has any interest in buying F9. DL is happy to see F9 continue with the meltdown at DEN that impacts UA and WN.
Indications are that loads on the expanded LGA flying are very strong considering only half of the hub has been put in place. DL recognizes that its ability to become the dominant airline in NYC requires it to have the seats in the market necessary to shift demand to DL. The 320/M80 and above is too large for many of these routes. Many of the CR7/9 routes could easily use larger aircraft - and we aren't in peak season or have all of the pieces of the hub in place. Pilots are likely to be alot less concerned with the CR7/9s if they are being used to smaller cities from hubs rather than on key routes such as LGA to DFW/IAH.
Of course it all depends on what is in the pilot contract... DL has stated they want to rework the DCI fleet and significantly reduce 50 seaters, which would have a dramatic impact on consolidated CASM. The pilots seem to think DL is wanting to swap out a bunch of 50 seaters - perhaps the Pinnacle fleet - for larger RJs - but everyone recognizes that DL will only be allowed to do that if it is essentially ASM neutral and there is a significant increase in flying for DL mainline crews.
I suspect before the week is out, the pieces will start to fall into place.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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DL's sensitivity to the pilot's concern about RJ expansion at NYC as well as the potential for increased flights are highlighted in the list of new flights announced today from both LGA and JFK, all on mainline aircraft.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/delta-continues-york-growth-expanded-130000139.html
Note how many of the markets are B6 markets, making it apparent that DL has no intention of attempting to acquire B6 and can do what it needs in NYC with the slots it has. The greatest value to DL from B6 is in BOS, but dominance in NYC will have a halo effect on other east coast markets.
The 717s also could have value to DL on the west coast where I believe DL will be shifting its strategic focus now that its strategic goals in NYC are coming close to being fulfilled.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/delta-continues-york-growth-expanded-130000139.html
Note how many of the markets are B6 markets, making it apparent that DL has no intention of attempting to acquire B6 and can do what it needs in NYC with the slots it has. The greatest value to DL from B6 is in BOS, but dominance in NYC will have a halo effect on other east coast markets.
The 717s also could have value to DL on the west coast where I believe DL will be shifting its strategic focus now that its strategic goals in NYC are coming close to being fulfilled.
Kev3188
Veteran
I certainly see the commonality side, and between the two types, that'd be my choice (not that they're going to ask.)
FWIW, from my own vantage point, If I had my choice of NB's to work, it'd be A319/320's all day long.
I guess I was just surprised to see Luv2Fly's post simply because I haven't heard much- if anything- about bringing more onto the property. Lots about the 717, though.
This smacks of weak hit-and-run posting. You've made a pretty serious accusation, and have been asked to show evidence of the same. This might be between you & E, but we're all in the audience. If you're gonna slander him, the least you could do is follow through.
What happened to "accountability?"
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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I am all about accountability, Kev.
The question is what will be accomplished by adding one more chapter to a multi-year long pi78ing contest which basically confirms in writing what said person's actions have supported - that he has been trying to eliminate a dissident voice for years now.
The best evidence that wasn't the case would be for E to refrain from his "this place is my domain" attitude and to be accountable for his actions on the board. Yeah, I've leveled a serious charge but despite what you and the rest of the audience here thinks, there is a whole lot more that could be said about E based on the evidence from his own posting behavior.
Back to the topic, it appears that the pilot contract allows for DL to swap out some 50 seaters for 76 seaters but w/ a total reduction on the number of RJs and the increase in 76 seaters contingent on a mainline aircraft order.
A number of pilots are not happy with the agreement, even though internet postings are full of "if they want any more 76 seaters" they should be flown by DL mainline pilots.
I'm not sure I understand the rationality of saying that while arguing that reducing the number of total RJs by a couple hundred and adding a 100 seat aircraft is not a good idea or supports the idea of flying small mainline jets.
They are supposed to get a 4% pay raise at ratification of the agreement plus another 8.5% on Jan 1, 2013, an increase in defined contribution funding, an early retirement program similar to what DL gave non-contract employees earlier this year, although their profit sharing % is being reduced.
Not sure how the numbers all add up but the offer is apparently based on "you can get some nice front-end pay raises in return for letting us get rid of a bunch of small RJ flying and adding a long-promised 100 seat aircraft."
I still think the 717 is the most likely deal but Airbus wasn't about to be left of the deal and undoubtedly came running with a proposal. I would imagine the reason it hasn't received more press is because it doesn't really solve the small mainline jet problem because of fuel burn rates that are almost the same as the 320, but will 20-25 seats less.
The 100 seat "order" will undoubtedly be announced in the near future as evidence to the pilot group of the validity of the tentative agreement.
The question is what will be accomplished by adding one more chapter to a multi-year long pi78ing contest which basically confirms in writing what said person's actions have supported - that he has been trying to eliminate a dissident voice for years now.
The best evidence that wasn't the case would be for E to refrain from his "this place is my domain" attitude and to be accountable for his actions on the board. Yeah, I've leveled a serious charge but despite what you and the rest of the audience here thinks, there is a whole lot more that could be said about E based on the evidence from his own posting behavior.
Back to the topic, it appears that the pilot contract allows for DL to swap out some 50 seaters for 76 seaters but w/ a total reduction on the number of RJs and the increase in 76 seaters contingent on a mainline aircraft order.
A number of pilots are not happy with the agreement, even though internet postings are full of "if they want any more 76 seaters" they should be flown by DL mainline pilots.
I'm not sure I understand the rationality of saying that while arguing that reducing the number of total RJs by a couple hundred and adding a 100 seat aircraft is not a good idea or supports the idea of flying small mainline jets.
They are supposed to get a 4% pay raise at ratification of the agreement plus another 8.5% on Jan 1, 2013, an increase in defined contribution funding, an early retirement program similar to what DL gave non-contract employees earlier this year, although their profit sharing % is being reduced.
Not sure how the numbers all add up but the offer is apparently based on "you can get some nice front-end pay raises in return for letting us get rid of a bunch of small RJ flying and adding a long-promised 100 seat aircraft."
I still think the 717 is the most likely deal but Airbus wasn't about to be left of the deal and undoubtedly came running with a proposal. I would imagine the reason it hasn't received more press is because it doesn't really solve the small mainline jet problem because of fuel burn rates that are almost the same as the 320, but will 20-25 seats less.
The 100 seat "order" will undoubtedly be announced in the near future as evidence to the pilot group of the validity of the tentative agreement.
BoeingBoy
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It would seem to me that instead of taking on an out-of-production aircraft type with fairly long leases remaining on them, the larger E-Jets would be a good solution if DL is really interested in a 100-110 seat airplane. Less fuel burn, better ergonomics for passengers, more range. Embraer's orders are on the soft side now so they might could be gotten for less than the last few years, maybe even with a deal to trade them for more efficient E-Jets with new technology engines that Embraer is talking about in the 2018 time frame.
Of course, there are other options - Bombardier would probably love to get some orders for it's C-series - but they're still unproven designs.
In short, why get stuck with an older design when other, better options exist?
Jim
Of course, there are other options - Bombardier would probably love to get some orders for it's C-series - but they're still unproven designs.
In short, why get stuck with an older design when other, better options exist?
Jim
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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because part of the objective DL is seeking is to reduce capital expenses. It is no secret that 100 seat aircraft economics are difficult to begin with - add in a $20M price tag and it becomes all the more difficult to justify.
A big part of the attraction of the 717s is that they can be obtained at very low cost - it is an orphan aircraft just like the M90 but the operating economics are not that much worse than new models.
I don't know what DL will choose but the pilot contract seems to make very clear that DL will order some type of 100 seat aircraft - and if they don't the freedom to get rid of the 50 seaters and trade them in for 76 seaters won't happen. Bombardier's reward will be getting to build a bunch more CR9s, I'm sure.
Given that the 717 rumor has been around for the longest time, it matches up DL who wants a cheap 100 seater with WN who doesn't want the model, and DL and WN both have been pretty loyal to Boeing who has to "bless" the deal, I would be surprised if the 717 deal doesn't happen..but there is alot going on behind the scenes that is beyond our ability to know.
A big part of the attraction of the 717s is that they can be obtained at very low cost - it is an orphan aircraft just like the M90 but the operating economics are not that much worse than new models.
I don't know what DL will choose but the pilot contract seems to make very clear that DL will order some type of 100 seat aircraft - and if they don't the freedom to get rid of the 50 seaters and trade them in for 76 seaters won't happen. Bombardier's reward will be getting to build a bunch more CR9s, I'm sure.
Given that the 717 rumor has been around for the longest time, it matches up DL who wants a cheap 100 seater with WN who doesn't want the model, and DL and WN both have been pretty loyal to Boeing who has to "bless" the deal, I would be surprised if the 717 deal doesn't happen..but there is alot going on behind the scenes that is beyond our ability to know.
BoeingBoy
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I don't know, seems to make very clear, some type, beyond our ability to know...
Such wishy-washy ramblings...
It would seem that if DL wanted to get rid of 50-seaters it had the perfect opportunity, but not only didn't take advantage of it but is working hard to keep the 77 50-seaters that Pinnacle operates...
Jim
Such wishy-washy ramblings...
It would seem that if DL wanted to get rid of 50-seaters it had the perfect opportunity, but not only didn't take advantage of it but is working hard to keep the 77 50-seaters that Pinnacle operates...
Jim
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