More spin... Just because the unions lost elections at DL doesn't mean more people are agreeing with you. DL just had more numbers than NW. Most of the other workgroups at other airlines are union, and not in danger of losing representation.
Delta to give all domestic employees raises in 2012
- Thread starter BABABOOY
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More spin... Just because the unions lost elections at DL doesn't mean more people are agreeing with you. DL just had more numbers than NW. Most of the other workgroups at other airlines are union, and not in danger of losing representation.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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no, it is actually not spin at all. The number of airline workers has dramatically declined since deregulation and the percentage of union workers has also dramatically declined. The percentage of airline workers who are not unionized continues to grow in part due to DL's mergers and acquisitions and the growth of carriers like B6 and VX.
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My suggestion for the labor movement is to focus all of your attention on supporting AA's employees during their company's BK proceedings - because labor will face yet another major assault over the next year that has the potential to affect all employees in the airline industry. 2012 will end with even fewer unionized airline employees.
NYCDelta
Senior
I only know about flight attendants (because I was one and still have many friends there) and pilots because I'm dating one. From what I understand, the PMNW F/A's will be getting higher hourly rates, but many benefits will be inferior, depending on who you talk to. The problem with benefits is that their importance is somewhat subjective-what is important to one person may not mean diddly to another. I would think the A Days program would be a step up. When I shared an apartment in Queens with 4 PMNW (before the merger) they were all on reserve with 10+ years-and hated it. I'm sure there are those who like being on reserve (I never did).
DL actually puts in 2% to your 401k regardless of whether you contribute and will match an additional 5% dollar-for dollar (my current employer, one of the best hospitals in the country, according to US News & World Report) does not. In fact, our company match is less than DL all around. We also work 12.5 hours. I didn't even know there were people out there getting a paid lunch. I would hate to lose that too.
PMNW topped out at 14 years; DL tops out at 12. PMNW will see higher pay in basic pay scales, LOD program, Per Diem, Purser pay, Domestic flight leader pay, profit sharing, and shared rewards (which is anywhere from $400/2010 to $875/2007 depending on performance metrics), and will lose the extra pay when no bunk/crew rest seat available.
PMNW will lose sick time in a big way. DL F/A sick time is a joke (IMHO). 42 hours per year is simply not enough for the F/A position. 2 3-day trips and you're pretty much out.
Retiree medical is inferior at DL. STD and LTD are provided, with an option to "buy up" (which is common at many employers).
So, trying to be as impartial as possible, you can see there will be gains and there will be losses. How much depends on who you ask and what is important to them.
FWIW, DL is replacing the Asian IFSR's with US-based LOD F/A's starting 01May2012. This is a good thing. The IFSR's will only be used on the intra-Asian flights. All flights to/from the US will be staffed 100% with US-based F/A's.
DL actually puts in 2% to your 401k regardless of whether you contribute and will match an additional 5% dollar-for dollar (my current employer, one of the best hospitals in the country, according to US News & World Report) does not. In fact, our company match is less than DL all around. We also work 12.5 hours. I didn't even know there were people out there getting a paid lunch. I would hate to lose that too.
PMNW topped out at 14 years; DL tops out at 12. PMNW will see higher pay in basic pay scales, LOD program, Per Diem, Purser pay, Domestic flight leader pay, profit sharing, and shared rewards (which is anywhere from $400/2010 to $875/2007 depending on performance metrics), and will lose the extra pay when no bunk/crew rest seat available.
PMNW will lose sick time in a big way. DL F/A sick time is a joke (IMHO). 42 hours per year is simply not enough for the F/A position. 2 3-day trips and you're pretty much out.
Retiree medical is inferior at DL. STD and LTD are provided, with an option to "buy up" (which is common at many employers).
So, trying to be as impartial as possible, you can see there will be gains and there will be losses. How much depends on who you ask and what is important to them.
FWIW, DL is replacing the Asian IFSR's with US-based LOD F/A's starting 01May2012. This is a good thing. The IFSR's will only be used on the intra-Asian flights. All flights to/from the US will be staffed 100% with US-based F/A's.
- Thread Starter
- #155
Your either joking or been hitting the bottle
with the statement .
"more non-union airlines have failed and more non-union airline employees have suffered more job loss and concessions than their unionized counterparts"
Say, EVER HEAR OF ...EASTERN, TWA, ummm PAN AM.???....BQ at "Unionized" CONTINENTAL (3times BQ) UNITED, USAIRWAYS and AMERICAN
and only non Union (for the most part) Delta.
You really do let your ideology get in the way of facts.
Thanks again for proving it.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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Let me say that your presence on this forum of late has been most welcome.
Since you and I have debated more than a couple things, we clearly don't see eye to eye on everything but you bring a perspective of objectivity and a willingness to rationally discuss what needs to be discussed.
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Your employment at multiple companies provides a perspective on real life that many in the airline industry seem to lack.
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All I would add emphasize is that benefits are being eroded at all kinds of companies; comparing what PMNW had in a contract signed years ago is not indicative of what any employer including NW if it were still here would give today.
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Does this mean that the couple US based FAs per flight that flowed through NRT to intra-Asian flights will no longer be doing that so that a crew will entirely be Asia based or US based?
There's probably a confounding factor such as the fact that more charter, regional, and start-up airlines tend to be non-union while established, international, network carriers are generally unionized. We all know you're here to push your agenda, but understand the DL employees have overwhelmingly voted to remain non-union. It's time the unions respect that.
Josh
Why did you leave out the ones that werent union, the list is quite long since 1978, longer than unionized?
metopower
Veteran
- Nov 28, 2006
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Probably because they were startups and not established airlines.
An Airline is an Airline, didnt know we distinguished employees because of the size of the carrier. A worker is a worker, the list of non-union failures is quite larger than unionized, I use to have a web page that had the list but I cant find it at the moment.
Kev3188
Veteran
Kev3188
Veteran
A Days seem quite popular with most of my F/A friends. 'Course there's no reason why that couldn't have been negotiated into a JCBA.
Check w/your friends, but I believe PMNW F/A's had ~ 5% contributed prior to the merger, with no action (or expense) required on their part. For IAM represented employes, the pension contribution worked out to ~ 6%; money they will now have to contribute out of pocket, assuming they're addicted to things like food and shelter as I am.
At the risk of sounding hyperbolic, it's huge. It's probably in my top 5 for sure. Today was my last day of an inclusive lunch.
Top out on the ramp (for those hired prior to '06) was 5 years, after that, it went to 10. CSA's took 10.
Arguably the understatement of this thread. Also means a lot of people won't be hitting the exits early like they'd planned. With DL offering one last shot at subsidized retiree medical this year, I think that at the least we'll lose a *ton* of institutional knowledge, something we can ill afford right now.
No problem!
southwind
Veteran
WN, highest paid ? For now, maybe, but things don't sound so rosy according to their CEO !
"Our labor rates are now, far and away, the highest in the industry. Through bankruptcy, very large New Airlines have emerged with lower rates than us and better productivity. Next to fuel, labor is our highest expenditure. We cant have lower overall operating costs if our labor costs aren’t lower."
http://www.flierhub.com/2011/12/06/southwest-ceo-sends-letter-to-employees-about-the-future/
Let's wait and see what happens when pay-cuts are announced !
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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Here are a couple of articles with stats about how many companies including in the auto industry have eliminated retiree medical coverage or cut it dramatically - and these articles are still a couple years old.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121617237912356653.html
http://www.airlineforums.com/
Without getting into a political discussion, the articles note that increased government involvement in health care is part of the reason why companies are dropping health care coverage for retirees.
DL did offer partially or fully subsidized retiree medical coverage as part of the early out packages post 9/11 as part of the incentives to voluntarily reduce headcount.
If the option is to leave a couple years earlier and keep some or all of your retiree medical coverage - which perhaps as few as 25% of companies offer - DL's offer might look pretty attractive.
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I would hope that DL's decision to pay out the accrued vacation time and to staff all longhaul flights to/from the US with US based FAs show that the company isn't looking for every opportunity to cut costs at the expense of its domestic employees. DL maintained the European based FAs inherited from Pan Am as long as possible but when DL stopped operating intra-Europe flights with its own aircraft, it could not obtain INS approval to allow those FAs to work flights to/from the US. Note that some of DL's US competitors have foreign FA bases that fly longhaul flights to/from the US, some of which are staffed by employees that make far less than American citizens or resident aliens... AA specifically (which is hailed for keeping maintenance in the US) staffs many of its Latin America flights w/ foreign based FAs in an arrangement that went back at least to Eastern and perhaps even before that.
I doubt very seriously that AA will be bringing back any of that flying to US based unionized FAs while the ranks of their US based mechanics are very much likely to be reduced.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121617237912356653.html
http://www.airlineforums.com/
Without getting into a political discussion, the articles note that increased government involvement in health care is part of the reason why companies are dropping health care coverage for retirees.
DL did offer partially or fully subsidized retiree medical coverage as part of the early out packages post 9/11 as part of the incentives to voluntarily reduce headcount.
If the option is to leave a couple years earlier and keep some or all of your retiree medical coverage - which perhaps as few as 25% of companies offer - DL's offer might look pretty attractive.
.
I would hope that DL's decision to pay out the accrued vacation time and to staff all longhaul flights to/from the US with US based FAs show that the company isn't looking for every opportunity to cut costs at the expense of its domestic employees. DL maintained the European based FAs inherited from Pan Am as long as possible but when DL stopped operating intra-Europe flights with its own aircraft, it could not obtain INS approval to allow those FAs to work flights to/from the US. Note that some of DL's US competitors have foreign FA bases that fly longhaul flights to/from the US, some of which are staffed by employees that make far less than American citizens or resident aliens... AA specifically (which is hailed for keeping maintenance in the US) staffs many of its Latin America flights w/ foreign based FAs in an arrangement that went back at least to Eastern and perhaps even before that.
I doubt very seriously that AA will be bringing back any of that flying to US based unionized FAs while the ranks of their US based mechanics are very much likely to be reduced.
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