DL to suspend SEA-HND Flights

[LDVAviation]

Such delusion, such fear.
 
Thankfully, with each passing quarter, these hysterical arguments continue to collapse in on themselves like the logical and rhetorical dying stars that they are.  And with the crumbling of each "Delta rules" meme comes more comedic gold as history is rewritten, red herrings thrown up to distract from said history, and blame and projection cast about to try and shift the focus to others.  I, for one, find it exceptionally entertaining.

 
I think the root cause is an inferiority complex of some sort.  My theory is that Delta really stands in for Atlanta in the minds of many of these fanboys.  If Delta is great so by extension is Atlanta.  
 
On a recent airliners thread that was deleted by the mods, I put my theory to the test.  The same people who always proclaim Delta's greatness came out to proclaim Atlanta's greatness as a world class city.  
 
With Atlanta, however, the delusions are so much more indefensible.  There was one guy who tried to argue that Georgia Tech was world-class, on par with Yale and Harvard, much more highly-regarded than UC Berkeley.  Another tried to claim that Atlanta had a higher number of tourists visit per year than Disneyland (Anaheim) or Los Angeles.  In short, it was the same type of arguments the same Delta fanboys make about Delta.

 

[FWAAA]

What you can't accept comm is that has not given up LOCAL market share either in Japan or across the Pacific, DL is the only US airline that has shown year round profitability to Asia and Japan, and JL is still here but even with AA is the smallest airline/JV across the Pacific ffom Japan

Exactly how much smaller is the AA/JAL joint venture across the Pacific than Delta if we exclude the Hawai'i beach markets, which don't matter to any United States business travelers going to Japan and don't matter to Japanese business travelers heading to the continental United States?

Between AA and JAL, I count a fair number of nonstops to Tokyo and nonstops to other cities in Asia (also part of the joint venture).

 

[WorldTraveler]

undoubtedly the reason why your thread was deleted was because you and others have the same flawed mindset that big market means greater success for an airline.

AA's Pacific network is the perfect example of why this principle has NOT worked. AA has tried TPAC routes from JFK, ORD, and LAX and significantly underperforms its peers from ever one of those cities - and it dropped its own metal service from JFK. and the "excuse of having the JL JV" doesn't work because AA/JL are far smaller than they were before.

in complete contrast, the vast majority of DL's TPAC growth outside of the NRT hub which it acquired has been from DTW and SEA, two markets where DL had very little if any other US carrier service - after all both AA and UA previously operated SEA TPAC service but dropped it.

and it is precisely because of DL's successes in growing its network at DTW and SEA that DL is NOW adding flights from LAX, the first but not last route from more competitive markets.

further, ATL is clearly not the center of the world because DL still operates the same ATL-NRT flight that DL has operated for years. ATL makes sense for a lot of things but it is not an ideal TPAC gateway.

DFW is not an ideal gateway to Asia either but it is a market where AA has a large hub and despite the greater distance over which AA must carry passengers to most destinations in the US, AA has the mass necessary to make Asia flights work so AA is smart to focus on what works.

what they weren't smart to do is to attempt to force the DOT to strip DL of its SEA-HND route. Regardless of the outcome of that effort, DL's expanded LAX operation will have a larger and more successful TPAC operation behind it.

the mods of a.net in this case did the right thing. not only was your post flame bait but it also isn't supported by actual facts.

why should we exclude Hawaii? it is just as much a part of the US as any other market.

 

[LDVAviation]

undoubtedly the reason why your thread was deleted was because you and others have the same flawed mindset that big market means greater success for an airline.

[...] the mods of a.net in this case did the right thing. not only was your post flame bait but it also isn't supported by actual facts.

 
Too bad you were banned from airliners long ago.  I am sure I could have gotten you banned again just by claiming that the elite do not want to reside in Atlanta.  How that would have set you off on one of your paranoid rants!
 
(BTW the actual facts support my claim.  For starters, see the Wealth Report.)

 

[topDawg]

 
I think the root cause is an inferiority complex of some sort.  My theory is that Delta really stands in for Atlanta in the minds of many of these fanboys.  If Delta is great so by extension is Atlanta.  
 
On a recent airliners thread that was deleted by the mods, I put my theory to the test.  The same people who always proclaim Delta's greatness came out to proclaim Atlanta's greatness as a world class city.  
 
With Atlanta, however, the delusions are so much more indefensible.  There was one guy who tried to argue that Georgia Tech was world-class, on par with Yale and Harvard, much more highly-regarded than UC Berkeley.  Another tried to claim that Atlanta had a higher number of tourists visit per year than Disneyland (Anaheim) or Los Angeles.  In short, it was the same type of arguments the same Delta fanboys make about Delta.

I saw that thread. (ugh me looking over at anet.) 
 
and i agree with them, you have no idea what you are talking about. JMO. 
 
 
anyways, I don't get your comparison here at all, and the LAST person who needs to talk **** about WT is you. You are king, everything AA touches, you should murder your kids if AA says so, fan boy.
 
I personally think you and WT are both bat chit crazy, but it easy for you too to play this game when all you want to do is piss farther on a internet message board. It is funny to me that most of us that work for airlines don't get into these stupid pissing contest like you fanboys do. IMHO I think more than a few people around here have way to much free time in their lives.
 
Okay, Rant over.  

 

[FWAAA]

why should we exclude Hawaii? it is just as much a part of the US as any other market.

Because the corporate travel managers of the Fortune 500 probably aren't impressed by how many seats DL or UA fly that are filled with Japanese tourists heading to US beaches in Hawai'i or Guam. Everybody knows that AA's challenge is to convince those travel managers that AA's network to Asia isn't as small as DL's or UA's corporate sales department has been telling them, if their definition of size includes the irrelevant beach market seats. More important to those corporate travel managers is the breadth of the network from business centers like NYC, LAX, CHI, ATL, BOS, DFW, etc to Japan and other Asian cities.

I don't doubt that UA and DL make lots of money on those markets, but that's irrelevant to the point I was making.

Your response makes me suspect that if those beach market seats are excluded, the delta between the DL or UA networks to Asia and the AA network to Asia isn't all that material.

 

[commavia]

Your response makes me suspect that if those beach market seats are excluded, the delta between the DL or UA networks to Asia and the AA network to Asia isn't all that material.

 
But wait ... if we're going to including Hawaii to make Delta's numbers look relatively better, do we not also then need to include GUM to make United's numbers look even better still?  Both are primarily leisure-oriented beach markets, but United has way, way more flights and seats between Japan and GUM than Delta does between Japan and Hawaii.  Uh oh ...

 

[topDawg]

 
But wait ... if we're going to including Hawaii to make Delta's numbers look relatively better, do we not also then need to include GUM to make United's numbers look even better still?  Both are primarily leisure-oriented beach markets, but United has way, way more flights and seats between Japan and GUM than Delta does between Japan and Hawaii.  Uh oh ...

 
 

Because the corporate travel managers of the Fortune 500 probably aren't impressed by how many seats DL or UA fly that are filled with Japanese tourists heading to US beaches in Hawai'i or Guam. Everybody knows that AA's challenge is to convince those travel managers that AA's network to Asia isn't as small as DL's or UA's corporate sales department has been telling them, if their definition of size includes the irrelevant beach market seats. More important to those corporate travel managers is the breadth of the network from business centers like NYC, LAX, CHI, ATL, BOS, DFW, etc to Japan and other Asian cities.

I don't doubt that UA and DL make lots of money on those markets, but that's irrelevant to the point I was making.

Your response makes me suspect that if those beach market seats are excluded, the delta between the DL or UA networks to Asia and the AA network to Asia isn't all that material.

Hey btw, I want to thank you guys, swamt, E, 700 and all the others that can keep this place professional. Its sad that a few fanboys who want to out piss each other have to ruin places like this. 
 
Okay off my soap box. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

But wait ... if we're going to including Hawaii to make Delta's numbers look relatively better, do we not also then need to include GUM to make United's numbers look even better still?  Both are primarily leisure-oriented beach markets, but United has way, way more flights and seats between Japan and GUM than Delta does between Japan and Hawaii.  Uh oh ...

 

sure you can if you want

in terms of seats, UA plus NH is larger than DL. DL is the largest SINGLE TPAC carrier to/from Japan, regardless of nationality

UA is still not as large as DL is to Japan regardless if GUM is included or not including because UA has an average fare disadvantage to DL to/from Japan.

what has changed from the old paradigm where NW dominated Japan and UA dominated China/HKG, each with fare advantages, is that DL is now getting average fares comparable to UA even in China markets.... UA is still larger but the LAX-PVG flight could well put DL and UA on parity to China. UA still has an advantage to HKG.
 

Hey btw, I want to thank you guys, swamt, E, 700 and all the others that can keep this place professional. Its sad that a few fanboys who want to out piss each other have to ruin places like this. 
 
Okay off my soap box.

yes, we know, simple statistics like simple math such as union dues per year are "unprofessional"

 

[Kev3188]

 
 
Hey btw, I want to thank you guys, swamt, E, 700 and all the others that can keep this place professional. Its sad that a few fanboys who want to out piss each other have to ruin places like this. 
 
Okay off my soap box. 

+1

 

[topDawg]

  
yes, we know, simple statistics like simple math such as union dues per year are "unprofessional"

No you guys having your stupid "Delta wins, United wins, American wins, Southwest wins" pissing contests is unprofessional. 
You use things like profit sharing to push your chest out, I look at profit sharing as I want American to have it. I want United to have it. The more they have the more I have. The less I have the less they have. 
 
But see it matters to me. It pays my bills. You its just a game. You and LDV can have a 14 page pissing contest of him saying stupid things like Atlanta doesn't have any top universities while you sit here and say every school from UGA/Tech/Emory down to the local community colleges are the best because its Delta's HQ city. (and people like me having to point out how you are both not even close to being correct) 
 
Me and Kev come here to talk about work. We want Delta and all the other airlines to do well. We want to post facts so what people who want to work for Delta, who want to compare Delta to XX airline, want to vote in a union, want to vote out a union whatever can know things. You just want Delta to be/do/become what ever the flavor of the month on the 4th floor is. You want Delta to run American out of business. 
 
Personally I would love to see you back on anet. That way you and all the other fan boys who are playing the "my airline is better than your airline" can do this over there. People like you and LDV fit in much better there. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

duh... the airline industry is highly I competitive.

Profit sharing comes because a company is profitable.

I want to see all airline employees make great money but I also want to end world hunger and have everyone making a middle class or better wage.

but neither are realistic.

and more significantly, the ability of carriers and their employees in the marketplace to win is rooted in day in and day out performance.

the simple facts are that DL is running a very good airline, save hedgegate.

uh... I have made no statements trying to push anything about ATL besides its value as a connecting airport and supporter of DL.

as soon as you get past your union infiltrated socialistic ideas, then you and I can agree. DL wins and takes its employees along for the ride because DL and its employees do the best job in the industry. and when they do, they get faster and larger increases in compensation than other carriers.

there is no "they have to win in order for me to win" in the free enterprise system.

that is socialistic thinking.

and it is also not something that most Americans or your peers want to sacrifice personally in order to achieve.

and specific to this topic, the latest DOT data continues to show that DL is the largest TPAC airline to/from Japan and that even though yields have fallen for all carriers, DL still enjoys a hefty average fare advantage to its peers. further, DL is closing the gap with UA in China and AA is not changing its number 3 out of 3 position in Asia relative to DL and UA or Japan

 

[topDawg]

duh... the airline industry is highly I competitive.

It is not nearly as competitive for us as it its for people like you. Again its a big game for you. Just take note of all your crazy bs in the LAX-PVG thread. The ONLY person who gave an single ounce of **** is you.
 
but that is because the rest of us here are union loving company hating turds that need to be flushed. (even though I have posted 60 million times I don't want to be in a union....) 
 

I want to see all airline employees make great money

No you don't. You love being over to click over to the AA page and tell all of them about Delta profit sharing. If that advantage goes away then you must find something else. 
 
If Delta/American has equal everything I personally think your head would simply explode. 
 

but neither are realistic.

Thats not true. Someone will always make more than the other guys. The issue we(we as in Active employees, not ex employees) have is that we have some guys that are lagging behind. 
 
and then people like me are lagging behind WN/5X and FX. 
 
 

the simple facts are that DL is running a very good airline, save hedgegate.

If I cost the company 50 cents by letting someone use a tug for 10 seconds I should be shot, hung and set on fire and my family all sent to a island to be raped and pillaged for ever. 
 
Someone forces Delta to take a bath on hedges and its "oh its okay"
 
You have issue bro.  

uh... I have made no statements trying to push anything about ATL besides its value as a connecting airport and supporter of DL.

If LDV pushes the issue you will jump all over it. 
 

as soon as you get past your union infiltrated socialistic ideas, then you and I can agree. DL wins and takes its employees along for the ride because DL and its employees do the best job in the industry. and when they do, they get faster and larger increases in compensation than other carriers.

My union(that I don't want to be in) socialistic (im a converative to modderate) ideas......
 
Starting to toss stones again eh?  

there is no "they have to win in order for me to win" in the free enterprise system.

that might be one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. (not the stupidest from you so I guess thats good)
 
What is industry avgerage? Anyone know? Could it be that Delta doesn't pay me WN/5X/FX pay rates because companies like AA make less than me?  

that is socialistic thinking.

No its logical thinking. Delta constantly reminds us
Oh we can do that work/check/overhaul in-house because of the cost pressure from B6, AAR, etc. etc. 
Oh we can't give you a pension because of the cost pressures from WN, B6 etc. etc. 
Oh we can't give a bigger raise or higher 401K match because of UA and AA. 
 
That is called industry average. I am a little shocked you don't understand the idea when it is basically all you preach about. 
 

and it is also not something that most Americans or your peers want to sacrifice personally in order to achieve.

Please proved proof to this statement. 

 

[eolesen]

FWAAA's right that once the beach markets of Hawaii & GUM are separated from US-Japan, and you focus on the mainland-Japan ops only, then the differences between the Big Three aren't anywhere near what the resident cheerleaDLr can admit to. He can't separate out the DOT's data to be route or sub-entity specific. Others can and do.

 

[FWAAA]

I can't take credit for it - earlier today I couldn't remember where I read it, but it was Cranky who wrote about it when the merger was announced:

http://crankyflier.com/2013/02/19/american-isnt-as-weak-in-asia-as-you-might-think/

AA, DL and UA have all added flights to Asia since then.