IAM Fleet Service topic

[ograc]

I understand where you are coming from, and realize that there would have been jobs lost either way. As you know, most of the employees in the outstations have/had high seniority. The way that this deal went down, they lost their jobs while some very junior people in the hubs kept theirs. It is my feeling that the bottom people should have been the ones furloughed instead of those with much more time. I do believe that some of the IAM leadership at that time preferred to shed those in the outstations with high seniority, and created the infamous 60 day rule to ensure so. I have heard this referred to as "Seniority Cleansing".....
Get rid of these guys, and make sure they don't start showing up in "our" station......

Your proposed senario could be true. Who knows what the thought process was. IMO... it was all about getting the votes to ratify the final proposal or suffer the consequences. Protect the work in the hubs at the expense of the outline stations. To this date we are still losing stations, members and jobs as a result. IMO...it's the same situation AA has put the labor organizations in on their property. IMO... corporate bankruptcy laws are demonic when it comes to the interests of organized labor. Personally, I can sympathize with the sad state of affairs the represented employees at AA find themselves in. There is no right, wrong or good choice.
ograc

 

[psa8979]

SFO was a HUB . Topped out with 128 PSA Flts. in1987. Mergers with US, PI, and LCC. Total flights 2012 is 12. Planned LAY-OFFS for 6/12 is 4 f/t, 4 p/t. Minus 480 F/S labor hrs. by LCC at SFO.
FURLOUGHS and GREED hurt ALL F/S . The Airlines are going to fly where MONEY ! can be made. Contracts for ALL in 2012. VOTE ! IAM for "HIRE DATE" in June.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim…

Am I getting the vibe that you are extending the proverbial olive branch, or… are you leading me into a “box canyon”?

Anyway… in your post you used the term sacredity did you mean “sacrality”? You used this term in describing M&A language using the TWU as an example. I’m going to guess that you meant that seniority is sacred and must be protected at all costs! I have reviewed the existing language in the latest proposal provided by JFK. I see NO magic “sacrality” language that would benefit any particular fleet group over another.

Perhaps, you have exceeded my verbal prowess here but… has the N/D not conveyed the same concerns? Your approach to getting a fast T/A prior to any merger is preferable, but is it realistic when you consider the legal proceedings, and ramifications regarding this transaction? Not to even speak of all of the hoops we have to jump through under the RLA just to progress negotiations to mediation? How do you propose that we leverage the company into immediately accepting our terms... and inserting the magic ‘sacredity’ language into the existing CBA… or in a T/A? Should we stomp our feet… or glare at them until they blink?

I’ve said this before… and you know I mean it… the Company has… and WILL… use ALL Federal Laws to their advantage to prolong negotiations within a hair of an impasse!

In addition... why would the TWU oppose the FAA re-authorization bill if it is Federal Law... and not open for negotiation? Further... H.R.658 could only be challenged through complex, financial, and time consuming legal proceedings... all at he Memberships expense!

So… let’s drop the interwoven subliminal political rhetoric!

Roabily,

Thankfully, you are not representing the US AIRWAYS fleet service. The problem is that even those who you support who are representing fleet service have come back and told our members not to pay any attention to the TWU contract and that the law will protect work groups fairly under the McCaskill Bond Act [MBA].

There could not be any greater deception or ignorance than having yourself or our current representatives to say such things.

The TWU contract that you and our representatives are missing or withholding is article 1e(1), that deals exclusively with the integration of seniority list. Although I used the word 'sacredity' to capture the sacredness of it, the explicit language is that none of the TWU members can be adversely affected under the integration. This is a huge problem for any US AIRWAYS member and it's a shame that I have to educate folks on this forum about the things presumably coming their way instead of the reps who are keeping the truth from them.

Moreover, our reps are telling our members that things have changed since the TWA/AMR merger and that the law does not allow the TWU to screw the US AIRWAYS members over. That simply is not true, the MBA does not determine seniority, it simply establishes a process to determine what is fair and equitable between two unions, then if there is no deal it goes to arbitration. And what is the arbitrator going to rule on? Contract language.

The audience should consider the case involving Southwest/Airtran. Southwest ramp is TWU with sacredity clauses. Airtran ramp is IAM. TWU went into discussions with the IAM for 6 months and offered up 4-1 to airtran rampers. IAM DL142 rejected and argued the case to an arbitrator a couple weeks ago. The arbitrator said a decision will be made at or around June 4. At this time, nobody knows what the decision will be but I seriously doubt it will be date of hire.

Therefore, every US AIRWAYS member ought to be uncomfortable if the MBA is triggered. The way to prevent that is to get a card signup at AMR and try to gain about 3,500 signed cards. If there is enough support to trigger a representational dispute then the MBA does not apply and the seniority will be determined as unions see fit like the UA/CO merger [as opposed to the Southwest/Airtran merger]. Remember, the MBA did not apply to any group at UA/CO because of representational disputes. The reason is because of the exception clause in the MBA. Thus, the focus of the IAM ought to be on the obtainment of cards at AMR and not to horse trade the cards for $$$ like the TWU did with America West members.

At any rate, the primary focus should be on the attainment of a contract before engaging in any transition agreements. We simply have to take care of our own people first and get a contract for our members with pay raises and enhancements before we should consider dabbling with transition talks which could take years and years to complete.

Roabily, you talk about the RLA like our representatives do. They are going into breakrooms telling folks that it could take years and that the company can drag things out. Such talk is not fully informative. Once again, consider current case studies in the same exact context as any US/AMR representational predicament.

Airtran/Southwest: The Airtran unions refused to engage in transition talks UNTIL Southwest finished Airtran contracts that were ammendable. Then and only then did the airtran unions decide to enter transition talks.

United/Continental: The AFA and IBT refused to engage in transition talks UNTIL management finished a contract for the United employees. The AFA got a contract worth $40 million JUST TO ENTER TRANSITION TALKS. The IBT got $59 million.

THe problem is that the New Direction got nothing and decided to enter transition talks and scrap the previous 3 years of United only talks. This is the exact thing that the New Direction will do again and we can't afford this nonsense. How many of our US AIRWAYS members would raise their hand in support of scrapping 2 or 3 years of talks to go into transition talks? Our United members voted IAM over the IBT because we told the UA members that we would not enter transition talks without first gaining considerations. After the vote, the New Direction changed directions and lied and plunged into transition talks where they now have less leverage.

The case studies don't lie and are separate from opinion, but the New Direction has been right with management every step of the way since the Hawaiian airline contract to not opposing the US AIRWAYS merger. And, to be sure, a merger is interesting but NOT at the expense of our members. And we have enough knowledge today to be adamantly opposed to management's flirtations with AMR unions. We have had 400 of our members laid off, no pay raises, and the company is cutting deals with other unions. We ought to be opposed to any flirtations with others until we square away and focus on finishing contract talks with our members and we better damn straight get the exact same seniority sacredity clause as the TWU has. No compromise!

Onward!

 

[mike33]

Roabily,

Thankfully, you are not representing the US AIRWAYS fleet service. The problem is that even those who you support who are representing fleet service have come back and told our members not to pay any attention to the TWU contract and that the law will protect work groups fairly under the McCaskill Bond Act [MBA].

 

[mike33]

I don't know who you are hearing that from Tim but thats not true. RD himself has told the membership that the LOA that was submitted for our protection needed to be looked at. Not one thing ...Not even a Hint of satisfaction from the TWU Language

I understand that you need to expand on subjects because you are running for office but expand on truths for christs sake. What ur feeding the readers is not true.

 

[Tim Nelson]

I don't know who you are hearing that from Tim but thats not true. RD himself has told the membership that the LOA that was submitted for our protection needed to be looked at. Not one thing ...Not even a Hint of satisfaction from the TWU Language

I understand that you need to expand on subjects because you are running for office but expand on truths for christs sake. What ur feeding the readers is not true.

Mike33,

Roabily was incorrect and I pointed out the language that he avoided in the TWU contract. When someone is on here defrauding the US AIRWAYS members I will call them out on it.

And, it isn't acceptable to have a union president neutral on what is happening. I understand the possibilities of a merger but we have enough information to oppose US AIRWAYS actions of stepping to another airline without first handling its own labor squabbles. And, you need a leader that is a closer and can finish the job and not revert to what Delaney did at United/Continental. What you need to understand is that you continually fail to recognize how Delaney's actions in the UA/CO merger are going to directly affect you and your brothers and sisters at US AIRWAYS. Unless you believe that Delaney is going to treat the 'second best' children at US AIRWAYS better than his own at United. For 3 years he told United members that he was going to finish their contract before entertaining transition talks. The IBT and AFA said the same to their members. But unlike the IBT and AFA, Delaney ended up supporting management in transitions and now he is wondering how he lost so much leverage and can't get out. Transition talks suck and can go on for years, so it is imperative that any leader not dump his members into transition talks without first gaining things for his members.

Continual layoffs at US AIRWAYS, no pay raises....count me in opposition to any flirtations elsewhere until we gain and stay focused on securing a US AIRWAYS contract that must include sacredity.

Onward!

 

[JFK Fleet Service]

The TWU contract that you and our representatives are missing or withholding is article 1e(1), that deals exclusively with the integration of seniority list.

That would be great Tim if not for the fact that section 1(e) would apply if AMR was doing the purchasing.Read down a little more to 1(f) (g) and (h) to read the sections that pertain to another company purchasing AA.

You need 3,500 cards from AA? Personally I'm not impressed by this pissing contest, and the idea of United having undue influence at the local level will not fly on the AA side.We don't dance to tune chosen by another airline based on their weight of numbers at the local.Our locals represent AA Fleet Service and that is it.

You come into JFK or LGA with this line of sh!t and you'll get yourself physically removed from the ready room.

 

[pjirish317]

JFK,

This is typical of Tim. He likes to use half-truths to ensight fear for his political gains. Where can I find a copy of your agreement to look at it myself?

 

[roabilly]

Nelson,

You can spin your bullshit anyway you like… but it’s still bullshit! I was looking directly at the latest AA/TWU offer and guess what… your “sacred” seniority lie was clearly exposed!

Even JFK clarified this for you… so let’s quit the games… I’m no mood for it. You can continue to play your little political games at the expense of this Membership… but be advised it’s gonna come back and bite you in the ass!

 

[JFK Fleet Service]

JFK,

This is typical of Tim. He likes to use half-truths to ensight fear for his political gains. Where can I find a copy of your agreement to look at it myself?

http://www.twubkfacts.org/Portals/39/votingdocs/FullTextFleetService.pdf

That is what they are asking us to vote on.

http://twu514.org/Documents/files/2009/04/twu_agreement_fsc_041503.pdf

Current 2003 Concessionary contract.

 

[ograc]

JFK,
Thank you for providing just the facts. Will review in more depth over the weekend. I'm assuming you have carefully reviewed the final offer. Curious what your opinion is, regarding choice of yea or nea,going forward.IMO... I'm getting tired of members and employees being asked and eventually forced to take concessions to keep them in business and profitable. Maybe it's time the shareholders hold the officers running their company accountable. Here's an idea... let's renegotiate their contracts based on financial results. time for me to take my blood pressure medicine.
ograc

 

[700UW]

That would be great Tim if not for the fact that section 1(e) would apply if AMR was doing the purchasing.Read down a little more to 1(f) (g) and (h) to read the sections that pertain to another company purchasing AA.

You need 3,500 cards from AA? Personally I'm not impressed by this pissing contest, and the idea of United having undue influence at the local level will not fly on the AA side.We don't dance to tune chosen by another airline based on their weight of numbers at the local.Our locals represent AA Fleet Service and that is it.

You come into JFK or LGA with this line of sh!t and you'll get yourself physically removed from the ready room.

Remember the TWU doesnt like Tim, he tried to raid them when he made up his own union, I seriously doubt if there is a merger that the TWU will want to deal with Tim.

Check this out:

http://airlineforums...ion-tim-nelson/

Dear Brothers and Sisters,
At the risk of breathing new life into what should be a dead issue, I would like to use this month’s President’s Message to express my thoughts on the group that calls itself the Allied Ground Workers. I am aware that some of our Local 512 members have been distributing literature about this organization and have solicited others to sign cards authorizing the AGW as the collective bargaining agent for fleet service. Some of you who are reading this may have signed one of these authorization cards. Members who were approached by these AGW supporters told me that they thought they were signing a petition the purpose of which was to show their displeasure with the TWU. In case it was not fully explained to you at the time, let me assure you there is more at play here than just sending a message to your TWU leadership.
This is what could happen.
As stated above, these cards indicate that the signatory authorizes the Allied Ground Workers to be the sole collective bargaining agent for fleet service employees at American Airlines. In the event that AGW were to obtain signatures from a majority of the bargaining unit system wide, they could petition the National Mediation Board for a representational election. There are three possible outcomes of such an election. If the TWU gets the majority of votes cast, the TWU would win. If the AGW gets the majority, it would win. Both of these outcomes are predicated on at least 50% plus one members of the bargaining unit casting votes for one or the other representative. The third possible outcome would occur if less than half the bargaining unit were to cast votes. If that were to happen we would have no union.
OK. That last scenario is too sickening to even contemplate so we’ll leave it be for now.
Let’s talk about the Allied Ground Workers. Who are they? Whom do they represent? What are their credentials and experience? If you visit the AGW website, you will find that their "Interim Director" is Tim Nelson and their "Interim President" is Mike Pruitt. Who are they and who elected them to their positions within the organization? The website does contain a brief "bio" on Nelson (nothing on Pruitt) that raises more questions than it answers. It appears Tim Nelson is very good at making sweeping general statements but is very stingy with supporting facts. With this in mind, one of our Local 512 representatives wrote Mr. Nelson an email respectfully asking him to clarify some of the things he states in his biography. While I give him credit for a prompt response, Nelson failed to answer any of the direct questions posed by our rep. He was, however, quick to take offense when the irony of his characterization of another Union’s system of governance as a "one man band" was pointed out to him. I am starting to suspect that Mr. Nelson is what our brothers and sisters at Local 513 might call "All hat and no cattle".
So what do we know about Tim Nelson, Mike Pruitt and the AGW? Nelson apparently works for US Airways (which just emerged from bankruptcy) though he states this nowhere in his biography and does not answer this question in the email although he was asked this directly. Nor does he answer the question of what work he does for the airline. He does not respond to a question if he was elected to his position or if he is self-appointed. He does not answer the questions of how and when the AGW was founded or whom the AGW represents. (Note: I do not believe the AGW is the bargaining agent for anyone and has never negotiated a contract.) He seems prone to making self-aggrandizing, vaguely messianic statements such as "…having Justice as a core basis of my faith and doing my best to serve it by God’s grace alone…" and "…the courtroom is empty and I am free to serve Justice."
And what do we know about "President" Mike Pruitt. Zip.
The targets of the AGW’s organizing drives are the ramp service employees from US Airways, United Airlines and American Airlines. All of these employees have suffered through painful restructuring either in bankruptcy, in the cases of US Airways and United, or under the threat of bankruptcy in the case of American. All of these employees are currently represented by either the IAM or the TWU. Apparently, the AGW is not interested in organizing employees who have no Union representation. The TWU is currently engaged in an organizing effort at Continental Airlines and spent years working to organize Delta’s ramp employees. The TWU has led successful drives to organize Southwest’s flight attendants and clerks and America West’s clerks. All of these employees lacked Union representation when the TWU began their drives. The AGW, by contrast, are nothing but a bunch of Union-busting predators. Don’t think so? Then why is one of the AGW’s biggest proponents in ORD supplying a link to the National Right to Work Foundation, an organization whose sole purpose it is to undermine organized labor, on the AGW forum website?
If there were to be a representation election and the Allied Ground Workers win, then what would happen? First of all, the contract would remain in force. A new Local would be formed and new officers elected. The AGW Constitution allows for members from more than one employer to makeup a Local so you could be in the same Local as US Airways and United employees. We could end up being led by officers who work at a different airline. An "employer specific" Local could be formed at the discretion of the National Executive Board. (I thought the AGW was supposed to have a "bottom-up" system of governance.) The TWU Local 512 treasury would revert to the TWU International and the new AGW Local would start out with zero dollars. (Under the AGW Constitution, 40% of dues money goes to the International and 60% stays with the Local. The split of initiation fees is 50-50. In the TWU, 70% of dues and 100% of initiation fees remains in the Local.) The new Local and International AGW would be subject to the same federal laws that govern the TWU and all Labor Unions in the airline industry, chiefly the Railway Labor Act (RLA) and the Labor Management Reporting and Disclosure Act (LMRDA).
As an officer of Local 512 I am bound by an oath to "…bear true and faithful allegiance to the International and Local Union…" and my Union is the TWU. I take that oath seriously and I do my best to live up to it. The TWU has been the …"exclusive and sole collective bargaining agency…" for fleet service at American since 1946 [TWU/AA Agreement, Article 1(a)]. No organization is perfect, just as no leader is perfect. Just as I am not blind to the internal problems of this organization, I am aware of the external forces that have plagued the industry, particularly the "legacy" carriers such as American, and have created downward pressures on industry wages and benefits. Those pressures are not only economic but political as well. The TWU has weathered many a storm in its half-century of representing employees in the industry. We have been through strikes, airline deregulation, Crandall, the demise of Eastern and Pan Am, 9/11 …but we have survived and we have prospered.
There is no question that this past year has been a horrible one for our members. There is no denying it. The TWU membership made the tough decisions necessary to keep the Company solvent and it appears that American is no longer at risk of filing for bankruptcy. Compare our situation with United, still in bankruptcy, and US Airways, just emerged from bankruptcy. Both of those airlines are asking their employees for further concessions with the threat of seeking relief from a bankruptcy judge if they fail to agree. Both United and US Airways have cut back considerably more of their operations and their workforces than American. American is poised to make a profit this year and the sooner it does so the sooner we will start to recover what we lost in the restructuring agreements. Money-losing companies do not agree to wage and benefit increases in negotiations.
Fraternally,

Glenn Harmon
President
TWU Local 512

 

[roabilly]

Nelson,

You can spin your bullshit anyway you like… but it’s still bullshit! I was looking directly at the latest AA/TWU offer and guess what… your “sacred” seniority lie was clearly exposed!

Even JFK clarified this for you… so let’s quit the games… I’m no mood for it. You can continue to play your little political games at the expense of this Membership… but be advised it’s gonna come back and bite you in the ass!

Even if the TWU Fleet seniority language in 1e(1) was directly applicable to the AA/US scenario (It’s not), I see no reference to seniority as being sacred; it is simply the Allegheny Mohawk LPP’s with a sentence that attempts to protect hours, pay, and work conditions…IF…those provisions in the LPP’s are not adhered to.

Here is the portion of the AA/TWU contract I’m speaking of…

(e) The integration of the seniority lists of the respective employee
groups will be governed by the provisions of Sections 3 & 13 of Allegheny-
Mohawk, 59CAB22 (1972), provided that no employee on the master seniority list
will be adversely impacted in rates of pay, hours, or working conditions by the
integration.

Here is the rest of the story…

(f) Merger, Purchase, or Acquisition by Another Company
In the event of a merger, purchase, or acquisition of the Company by another
company, the TWU and the Company will meet to discuss the merger, purchase, or acquisition. The Company will provide the TWU with information concerning the proposed merger, purchase, or acquisition at the earliest feasible time to allow for the Union to prepare for those discussions. Those discussions will include the impact of the merger, purchase, or acquisition upon the TWU represented employees.

(g) Labor Protection Provisions:
In the event of a merger, purchase, or acquisition of the Company by another
company, the integration of the seniority lists of the respective employee groups will be governed by the provisions of Sections 3 & 13 of Allegheny-Mohawk, 59CAB22 (1972).The employee groups of each carrier will remain separated until such time as the seniority lists are integrated in accordance with this paragraph.


Here is what the Allegheny Mohawk sections say…

Section 3 specifies that:
“insofar as the merger affects the seniority rights of the carriers’ employees, provisions shall be made for the integration of seniority lists in a fair and equitable manner, including, where applicable, agreement through collective bargaining between the carriers and representatives of the employees affected. In the event of failure to agree, the dispute may be submitted by either party for adjustment in accordance with section 13.


Section 13 of the Allegheny-Mohawk order directs that when a dispute or controversy cannot be settled by the affected parties within 20 days, either party may refer it to an arbitrator selected from a panel of seven names furnished by the NMB. The parties involved select the arbitrator by alternately striking names until one remains. The selected arbitrator must render a decision
within 90 days unless the parties agree to extend that time limit. The salary and expenses of the arbitrator are shared equally between the employer and employee group or individual employees. The arbitrator’s decision is final and binding. The involved parties may agree on an alternative method for dispute resolution or an alternative procedure for selecting an arbitrator. The new federal law, however, provides that if the same collective bargaining agent represents the combining classes or crafts at the newly merged airline, then that collective bargaining agent’s internal policies regarding integration will supersede the Allegheny-Mohawk provisions. This is an important distinction for the pilots in the proposed Northwest-Delta merger. Since both pilot groups are represented by the same union, they are allowed to resolve the issue among themselves. For other unionized employees who are combining with nonunion employees or employees of another union, the provisions of their collective bargaining agreement related to integration or successor clauses apply only if they do not contradict the “fair and equitable” standard and arbitration procedures of Allegheny-Mohawk. The role airline management would have in integration discussions under these circumstances is unclear.


Now… how can any of these words be construed as some magic, exclusive, “sacred” language?

 

[Tim Nelson]

Nelson,

You can spin your bullshit anyway you like… but it’s still bullshit! I was looking directly at the latest AA/TWU offer and guess what… your “sacred” seniority lie was clearly exposed!

Even JFK clarified this for you… so let’s quit the games… I’m no mood for it. You can continue to play your little political games at the expense of this Membership… but be advised it’s gonna come back and bite you in the ass!

Wow, haven't we learned at all about these reversed mergers and Parker? Did America West buy US AIRWAYS? Did United really buy Continental? Roabily, what the hell is your problem, how about agreeing that we need to clean up the seniority on our side of the fence? Why is this so hard for you?

And when are you going to finally come clean to the membership about how Delaney has absolutely destroyed the merger negotiations at United? WHy don't you talk about Delaney's actions at United? WHy don't you tell your US AIRWAYS members the truth about how delaney lied to the United members and instead of finishing a UA contract he finally dumped his members into the abyss known as transition talks WITHOUT getting ANYTHING for it? What has Delaney done with the United merger that anyone in his right mind who works for US AIRWAYS would approve of? US AIRWAYS members would be naive to follow you into the Rich 'Let's just scrap our contract talks and jump into transition talks' Delaney camp. Again, since you support Delaney, then it might be better for you to defend his actions in mergers than calling me a spin master or Bull crapper.

I get the fact that you suggest Delaney didn't really know what he was signing when he signed the Hawaiian airline contract that called for part timers getting paid half of full time and paying for parking, but how about advising the membership how he screwed his own in a merger.

Onward!

 

[saywhat]

There is a web page up for the ND. 141rising.com
Interesting stuff on there.