" NO DEAL "

[North by Northwest]

Again, I told you I'd conceed the point because I just don't see how it's relevant, so long as you can't answer specifically which American corporations out there TODAY "enslave" their employees? Arguing slavery based on enthnocentric vs. race really doesn't apply to this "No deal" thread.



No, they didn't. But if you're using longevity alone, you have a weak argument that just by succeeding them for 10-20 years longer, you will be able to evade the same ultimate destiny. Also, please don't presume to know who my employer is.



Congratulations! Now why can't you just leave it at that? Go on your merry way until fuel triples in price and you have to strike again in 5 years while the airline spirals into the gutter, yanking another 25% of your pay until it withers away to nothing, or more likely gets absorbed.... doesn't history repeat itself? Again, honestly, I don't wish this to happen to you or your coworkers, I'm just being realistic.



Craft? CRAFT? What is the craft here? With all due respect to F/A's everywhere, but I think that is a line of b/s. Flight attendants may love what they do, but they are also qualified for MANY other jobs just by their own skill set.... customer service, business operations, employee supervision (in some cases), security, sales, and many others. For example, both of my Uncles (Uncle Mike & Aunt Dave) were both flight attendants for many years, but now have fantastic jobs and earn 30-40 times what they did at the airlines... (Big new house in Palm Springs and one in Florida, travel the world first class, drive nice cars, go to nice dinners, etc). Could they have ever done it as F/A's? NO WAY!

Enforcing people to unionize goes against what you preach, which is workers rights. They have the right to, they have the right not to. They also have the right to work somewhere else if they don't like the way the company treats them. God bless America.

I will respond to all of the above when you clarify your SLAVERY/ and the Bible reference regarding the US as the FIRST society in human history to base Slavery on a human's skin color.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Craft? CRAFT? What is the craft here? With all due respect to F/A's everywhere, but I think that is a line of b/s. Flight attendants may love what they do, but they are also qualified for MANY other jobs just by their own skill set.... customer service, business operations, employee supervision (in some cases), security, sales, and many others. For example, both of my Uncles (Uncle Mike & Aunt Dave) were both flight attendants for many years, but now have fantastic jobs and earn 30-40 times what they did at the airlines... (Big new house in Palm Springs and one in Florida, travel the world first class, drive nice cars, go to nice dinners, etc). Could they have ever done it as F/A's? NO WAY!

Enforcing people to unionize goes against what you preach, which is workers rights. They have the right to, they have the right not to. They also have the right to work somewhere else if they don't like the way the company treats them. God bless America.

I don't doubt what you say is true..to an extent. But it's not as easy (looking for other work that pays even 1.5x avg. FA salary) as it looks. This is especially true if one is trying to re-enter the workforce in her/his 40s or 50s and especially in this type of recessionary economy. I'm glad for your uncles as I love former FA success stories. On the other hand, I had several friends who took the long term leaves/severances a few years back (to try their hands in other careers)and MANY have come back to flying this past year. I'm not saying it can't be done; it's just a bit more complex than "oh, I'm gonna quit flying after 25 years and get a job next week paying me 130k a year," Yes, FAs wear a lot of hats as part of their work and are therefore qualified for many positions--but unless it's sales, those positions generally are hospitality/customer service and usually don't pay as much starting off. So of course, the other option is to return to school/university; this takes time and money. Many FAs have gone to nursing school, for instance, while they fly...so,if they feel it's necessary, should they not have a CBA while they fly and continue their studies?
Bottom line: Your point that FAs don't need a union because they "are qualified for many other jobs" is, with all due respect, hogwash. And going back to "loving" their jobs as FAs, WHAT is wrong with protecting a job you love?? Common sense says that's even more reason.
I've heard all the anti-union arguments but this "they can get another job" is definitely on the bottom rung. What you're basically saying is you don't need a union or contract; if the company starts abusing you, simply skip off and get a customer service job paying 120k and buy houses in Palm Springs and Florida. Unless they returned to school (yes, even real estate school although that's dried up now) or knew someone very influential, I'm most certain it didn't work that way for your uncles.
(PS: I'm curious...what line of work did your uncles go into?)

 

[UnionAMT]

Somebody needs a history lesson! Slavery has been around since biblical times, and even before then.... since the beginning of human history, it has existed in one form or another, and has most often been based ethnic and racial characteristics. Where do you come up with this stuff?



When and if there comes a time that the F/A's at Delta feel that they need to organize, they will. However, we need to remember that while it is your right to unionize, it is also your right NOT to unionize. Groups who choose not to unionize should not be taunted, penalized, or treated poorly for exercising their rights. A union group demanding non-union personnel to the bottom of the list would be absolutely reprehensible, and I'd like to think that the management at Delta would be the first to reject a merger agreement if it included this kind of arrogance and unfairness.

Either way, the F/A's at Delta are a strong group, and strong they will remain!

 

[UnionAMT]

Somebody needs a history lesson! Slavery has been around since biblical times, and even before then.... since the beginning of human history, it has existed in one form or another, and has most often been based ethnic and racial characteristics. Where do you come up with this stuff?



When and if there comes a time that the F/A's at Delta feel that they need to organize, they will. However, we need to remember that while it is your right to unionize, it is also your right NOT to unionize. Groups who choose not to unionize should not be taunted, penalized, or treated poorly for exercising their rights. A union group demanding non-union personnel to the bottom of the list would be absolutely reprehensible, and I'd like to think that the management at Delta would be the first to reject a merger agreement if it included this kind of arrogance and unfairness.

Either way, the F/A's at Delta are a strong group, and strong they will remain!

Can you say,"enslaved by OPEC",boys and girls.

See... boys and girls,airline says" have ta consolidate". Gotta do what? Thats right,hafta go over what? Thats right"o-v-e-r s-e-a-s. Why's that you say? Well because our "good neighbor" greedy ole corporation wants G-l-o-b-a-l-i-z-a-t-i-o-n. See kiddies, it's not enough to have slave labor in other countries. Greedy ole David Rockefeller wants it right here at home too.
See children? You kids have to pay back a n-a-t-i-o-n-a-l d-e-b-t, that actually doesn't exist.

Oh you say,"neighbor is crazy". Oh... we are naive little folks aren't we? That "good neighbor" of ours, you know, the Federal Reserve. Actually a very d-e-c-e-p-t-i-v-e name, since it's not a federally owned banking institution. That's right children. Stop slouching now. That's right. Can you say privately owned by foreign bankers. OOOkay kiddies, Reeady, here comes a new word, are you ready? Can you say c-o-m-m-u-n-i-s-t-s ? Well-hell no wonder Commy China is most favored nation you say?
All right then. Here comes choo-choo with your reality check. Oops didn't mean to say check, but that is the only checks neighbor will be seeing,other than u-n-e-m-p-l-o-y-m-e-n-t checks if we don't join hands with our u-n-i-o-n-s and repeal N-A-F-T-A. Very good neighbor. H-A-F-T-A repeal N-A-F-T-A.
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[USAir757]

I will respond to all of the above when you clarify your SLAVERY/ and the Bible reference regarding the US as the FIRST society in human history to base Slavery on a human's skin color.

"Within the space of four hundred years millions of people were forcibly taken from Africa as slaves. The majority of them went to the Americas, although many were taken to the Middle East and North Africa."

Link

Even though I still don't see how this is relevant, in that you consider enslaving somebody for being Jewish different than for being Black, I guess there is some argument on the matter, as described here:

Link

So, if that's sufficient, I'd be interested in hearing your answer to my question.

I'm not saying it can't be done; it's just a bit more complex than "oh, I'm gonna quit flying after 25 years and get a job next week paying me 130k a year," Yes, FAs wear a lot of hats as part of their work and are therefore qualified for many positions--but unless it's sales, those positions generally are hospitality/customer service and usually don't pay as much starting off.

I admit, you're right, it's easier said than done. You would definitely need to apply yourself, and work hard to find something that would be better than what you have now. That's life. But, for some people, they absolutely hate their jobs as F/As, and I tell them, if you hate it so much, why not move on? Why live miserable, getting paid less than you deserve, simply because you're scared?

Your point that FAs don't need a union because they "are qualified for many other jobs" is, with all due respect, hogwash. And going back to "loving" their jobs as FAs, WHAT is wrong with protecting a job you love?? Common sense says that's even more reason.

Companies that treat and pay their employees poorly will end up losing in the long run. Unions don't make employees happier (you don't have to spend much time around USAviation to figure that out), but they do protect people that would be in deep trouble otherwise. It's hard to liken a highly-skilled trade such as an aircraft mechanic to a flight attendant (and again, please don't take offense). You have things that, worst comes to worst, you can fall back on, and you'll be ok! Many others who have spent their lives doing ONE thing, do not. So please understand, I'm not 100% anti-union, I just strongly believe there is a time and appropriate place for them to exist.

Consider a non-union situation, like most of the jobs in this country. If the company treats their employees poorly, doesn't pay them well or on-time, harasses them, etc etc, they are shooting off their own feet. The system won't allow the company to continue, and profitability will be severely difficult to achieve. Employees will quit, and the company will be forced to hire whatever people are willing to work for less, in the conditions that are reported by outgoing workers. It's a downward spiral, and management knows it. Unions are NOT by far the one-stop-shop answer to employee/management relations... or everything else for that matter, as suggested by UnionAMT... (Though it's difficult to decipher what he/she is trying to say)

if the company starts abusing you, simply skip off and get a customer service job paying 120k and buy houses in Palm Springs and Florida. Unless they returned to school (yes, even real estate school although that's dried up now) or knew someone very influential, I'm most certain it didn't work that way for your uncles.
(PS: I'm curious...what line of work did your uncles go into?)

No, it's not that easy. You have to make sacrifices... go back to school, night school/work during the day, and I know that's not easy when you are in your 40s/50s/60s. But it's the path you chose, presuming you chose this field many years ago. We have to adapt to different changing environments in any industry... look at doctors for example! Everyone thinks they are rich and just roll in the dough, but they are some of the most highly skilled workers anywhere, and they are making nowhere near the money they used to! They have to adapt, adjust to lower incomes and higher expenses... if they "unionized" and started collectively demanding more money for services, it would be akin to price fixing, right? But they don't... they adjust and move on. (I'm just trying to draw a parallel here, I know there are differences)

And to answer your question about the uncles... no, it didn't happen magically. You're right, one of them IS in real estate, and very good at it. But what field they're in really doesn't matter, and the money they make really isn't all that important either. What's important is that they are so much happier, they don't live their lives feeling unhappy and miserable, for a company they felt disrespected and hated them. That alone is worth it's weight in gold!

 

[North by Northwest]

Nice try...

Let's make this simple since you seem to think denial is a river in Egypt.

There were places in THIS country that had laws that stated IF YOU WERE BLACK (that's a SKIN color for humans) IT WAS LAWFUL TO ENSLAVE YOU. There has NEVER been a law (even in Egypt) anywhere in the world (prior to the US) that said JUST BECAUSE YOU WERE JEWISH (enslaved in Egypt as a result of their colluding[sleeping with the enemy] with the Hyksos,and Egyptian nationalism-New Kingdom ca.1585BCE. , WHITE, PINK or Purple delegates you to slavery based on your color. Clearly, the historical facts of this nation disturbs you. As great as it is...it has a soiled and shoddy past when it comes to human decency. The US took Slavery to a whole new level, a degrading, degenerate level.

It is relevant because you didn't like my usage of the term slavery. Therefore, you felt I needed a history lesson When in fact you can't even grasp the truth of history.

More than anything, the history of Slavery in America and it's cause demonstrates the level of intense greed even as it imposes itself upon human dignity. (as it does today with the wonton destruction of so many lives of working people for the greedy, financial self indulgence of a few.) The clip below is a prime example of the incredible level of pure ignorance that permeated early America.

"The cornerstone of slavery was difference. Any divergence from the traits of white people was taken as a basis in order to calculate whether someone should be enslaved. People of color were perceived as naturally unclean, lazy, violent, savage, sexually promiscuous and not self-sufficient. According to whites, their behavioral and mental capabilities were limited and without external discipline and control they would be unproductive and the negative traits of their character would surface causing great disruption to the society. There was another common set of assumptions held by whites concerning people of color. First of all, blacks were viewed also as assets, property. Whites had a legitimate claim over them because in their eyes blacks were inferior, naturally unfit to be a part of society. “The belief that a highly structured social order was natural- in fact, divinely inspired- had arrived to the New World with the earliest Englishmenâ€￾ and thereafter human inequality was always taken for granted. Before the Revolutionary Era, whites did not have to question the validity of their beliefs because their interests were served in the best possible way, since the only thing they were interested in was acquisition of wealth and upward mobility."

http://articles.directorym.com/Enslavement...50.html#8001775

 

[Ch. 12]

I motion to move this to the water cooler. I came looking for some light airline reading and got an emotion-filled thread having nothing to do with the airlines. WATER COOLER. WATER COOLER. Do I have a second?

 

[luv2fly]

I motion to move this to the water cooler. I came looking for some light airline reading and got an emotion-filled thread having nothing to do with the airlines. WATER COOLER. WATER COOLER. Do I have a second?

Second, third, fourth.

 

[USAir757]

NxNW,

I'm an educated person, and I don't mind admitting, I'm at a complete loss as to why you feel the need to argue this point so strongly. I apologize for suggesting that you need a history lesson, had I known this conversation was going to develop as it did, I probably would have left it alone, or better yet, told you upfront that it was just not relevant to the topic. So, for the THIRD time, I will conceed the point that you insist on driving home, but still fail to draw ties of relevance to your original post. You want to debate slavery, Ch.12 is right, the water cooler is a more appropriate place. You can trash the evil America all you want there, in fact, it's become an increasingly popular thing to do over the last few years.

That being said, I'll wrap up my posts on this topic by saying that I am happy for the individuals at both airlines, as it seems that a forced integration of the two would have almost certainly been a mismatch. I urge all Delta F/A's, especially those who are unhappy, to consider the recent buyout package offered for "early retirement" (I have not had a chance to review it, myself), but it could be an opportunity to move forward into another line of work, one that will provide you with better job security, maybe higher pay, but almost certainly a happier, more rewarding life and career. After all, that's what we're all after.

Thanks,
757

 

[USCREW]

For example, both of my Uncles (Uncle Mike & Aunt Dave) were both flight attendants for many years, but now have fantastic jobs and earn 30-40 times what they did at the airlines... (Big new house in Palm Springs and one in Florida, travel the world first class, drive nice cars, go to nice dinners, etc). Could they have ever done it as F/A's? NO WAY!

So they make one to two million a year now? WOW! :blink:

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

I urge all Delta F/A's, especially those who are unhappy, to consider the recent buyout package offered for "early retirement" (I have not had a chance to review it, myself), but it could be an opportunity to move forward into another line of work, one that will provide you with better job security, maybe higher pay, but almost certainly a happier, more rewarding life and career. After all, that's what we're all after.

Thanks,
757

You may want to familiarize yourself with the new 'buyout.' It's available on Deltanet if you're a DL employee. For most people, just 3 mos. of health insurance coverage isn't going to cut it. I believe you will see few take this but I could be wrong.

That being said, 757...from your postings, you seem to be coming from a place that says that all pro-union FAs are miserable and unhappy.
This is simply not the case. Pro-union FAs are interested in taking a job they love and making it better, more solid, with black and white work rules and a grievance procedure to hold others accountable. It's called Fairness.