Your post about the $5 billion is misleading 700. That payment was direct compensation for the airlines not being able to operate due to the federal order shutting down the airspace. It is in no way comparable to any direct subsidy that the ME3 receive from their governments. If the $10billion in loan guarantees only a little over a billion was paid out, and many airlines saw their applications denied.
Qatar Air CEO: Delta CEO Uses Terrorism Rhetoric to ‘Hide His Inefficiency
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FrugalFlyerv2.0 said:
Folks, I think we have a winner.
What makes this claim even more delectable is that some of us remember how on Airliners WorldFraudster would tout the advantages DL had over AA by partnering with AF and not BA. So much for the self-proclaimed airline psychic!
WorldTraveler
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well look who came out of the closet only to use the same name calling that everyone else on here does and provide no insight whatsoever to the topic. at least you are consistent across websites and years.
the reason why DL is speaking up is the same reason that DL has been vocal on taxes and refineries and Boeing subsidies... because DL has a mgmt. team that is running the airline at such a high level that they can focus on major strategic issues instead of just dealing with debt and integration like AA and UA are doing.
the reason why DL is focusing on the ME3 now is because DL recognizes what is going on Europe - and it isn't just AF. LH is just as damaged by the ME3 - they just don't have the labor baggage that AF does.
Well-run companies are capable of looking at what is happening to other companies and contexts and see where it is going - and DL is not willing to let the ME3 do in the USA what they have done in Europe of to some of the weaker Asian carriers.
Who knows whether DL (and AA and UA) will gain - but they can't blame anyone if the ME3 start flying routes to Europe from the US do to the US carriers what they have done from Europe to the Middle East.
I am personally confident that AA, DL, and UA have done a good enough job of documenting the subsidies that the ME3 have rec'd that there will be changes that prohibit the ME3 from making further inroads into the US market.
and IIRC the ATSB was profitable when it was shut down. Airlines that rec'd loan guarantees did back. Is that right?
the reason why DL is speaking up is the same reason that DL has been vocal on taxes and refineries and Boeing subsidies... because DL has a mgmt. team that is running the airline at such a high level that they can focus on major strategic issues instead of just dealing with debt and integration like AA and UA are doing.
the reason why DL is focusing on the ME3 now is because DL recognizes what is going on Europe - and it isn't just AF. LH is just as damaged by the ME3 - they just don't have the labor baggage that AF does.
Well-run companies are capable of looking at what is happening to other companies and contexts and see where it is going - and DL is not willing to let the ME3 do in the USA what they have done in Europe of to some of the weaker Asian carriers.
Who knows whether DL (and AA and UA) will gain - but they can't blame anyone if the ME3 start flying routes to Europe from the US do to the US carriers what they have done from Europe to the Middle East.
I am personally confident that AA, DL, and UA have done a good enough job of documenting the subsidies that the ME3 have rec'd that there will be changes that prohibit the ME3 from making further inroads into the US market.
that is correct.
and IIRC the ATSB was profitable when it was shut down. Airlines that rec'd loan guarantees did back. Is that right?
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WorldTraveler
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given that Anderson is a lawyer and is very well-spoken, the latter point is probably true.
doesn't change that the ME3 are in absolutely the last place to be trying to complain about US subsidies of the airline industry because of 9/11.
What the ME3 really fears is that Anderson will be successful and their growth across the Atlantic and the US will be cut short, as it should be.
doesn't change that the ME3 are in absolutely the last place to be trying to complain about US subsidies of the airline industry because of 9/11.
What the ME3 really fears is that Anderson will be successful and their growth across the Atlantic and the US will be cut short, as it should be.
FrugalFlyerv2.0 said:
Speaking of which - did you see the earnings results Air France-KLM announced? Yikes.
The disparity evident when comparing the performance of IAG and its subsidiaries (oneworld members BA and Iberia, plus Vueling) to that of both Air France-KLM and Lufthansa's group of carriers continues to be remarkable.
WorldTraveler
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it's not a surprise that the ME3 has had more success growing continental Europe because of greater amounts of airport space.
The UK also is benefitting from NOT being in the Euro and of not following the same labor laws as continental European countries, including Spain
let's be clear that the future of a number of airlines, and I would dare say AF/KL is far from assured.
The ME3 recognize that and Anderson is well aware that it won't take too many JFK-MXPs before DL is competing against the ME3 across the Atlantic.
and anyone could have seen where AF/KLM's earnings were going when the pilots went on strike. Companies don't push the envelope like AF/KL did unless the stakes are high enough that it is worth the risk of major financial damage from a strike.
----
meanwhile the report that AA, DL, and UA sent to the Obama Administration includes:
Etihad has received more $17 billion in subsidies since 2004, including "$13.5 billion in interest-free government loans, equity infusions, airport fee exemptions and other types of government funding that have enabled the airline to continue in operation despite its $4 billion in accumulated losses." the report said, citing "company filings in certain third party jurisdictions."
Abu Dhabi's government committed to spend an additional $4.2 billion in subsidies in 2014 and beyond, the report said.
Without subsidies, "Etihad would not be commercially viable," the report said. "The airline's auditors have been unwilling to classify the company as a 'going concern' ... without explicit commitments by the government to continue covering Etihad's financial obligations."
Qatar Airways has received more than $16 billion in subsidies since 2004 including $8.4 billion in subsidized loans and shareholder advances, which have been made in every year since 1998, the report said. The government also guarantees the airline's term loans. "Without the subsidies, Qatar Airways would not be commercially viable," the report said.
On Thursday, Qatar CEO Akbar Al Baker appeared on CNN International's "Quest Knows Business" to refute subsidy claims made the previous night on the same show by Delta CEO Richard Anderson
As for Emirates, the most successful of the Gulf carriers, it has received at least $5 billion in subsidies since 2004, the report said.
"Although a pervasive lack of transparency in Dubai's aviation sector -- in combination with Emirates' failure to release its financial statements for the first 16 years of its existence -- precludes anything near a full quantification, information from public and confidential sources indicates that Emirates has received at least $5 billion in subsidies in the last 10 years alone," the report said.
http://www.thestreet.com/story/13051277/3/report-says-gulf-airlines-got-39b-with-more-to-come-in-illegal-subsidies.html
The UK also is benefitting from NOT being in the Euro and of not following the same labor laws as continental European countries, including Spain
let's be clear that the future of a number of airlines, and I would dare say AF/KL is far from assured.
The ME3 recognize that and Anderson is well aware that it won't take too many JFK-MXPs before DL is competing against the ME3 across the Atlantic.
and anyone could have seen where AF/KLM's earnings were going when the pilots went on strike. Companies don't push the envelope like AF/KL did unless the stakes are high enough that it is worth the risk of major financial damage from a strike.
----
meanwhile the report that AA, DL, and UA sent to the Obama Administration includes:
Etihad has received more $17 billion in subsidies since 2004, including "$13.5 billion in interest-free government loans, equity infusions, airport fee exemptions and other types of government funding that have enabled the airline to continue in operation despite its $4 billion in accumulated losses." the report said, citing "company filings in certain third party jurisdictions."
Abu Dhabi's government committed to spend an additional $4.2 billion in subsidies in 2014 and beyond, the report said.
Without subsidies, "Etihad would not be commercially viable," the report said. "The airline's auditors have been unwilling to classify the company as a 'going concern' ... without explicit commitments by the government to continue covering Etihad's financial obligations."
Qatar Airways has received more than $16 billion in subsidies since 2004 including $8.4 billion in subsidized loans and shareholder advances, which have been made in every year since 1998, the report said. The government also guarantees the airline's term loans. "Without the subsidies, Qatar Airways would not be commercially viable," the report said.
On Thursday, Qatar CEO Akbar Al Baker appeared on CNN International's "Quest Knows Business" to refute subsidy claims made the previous night on the same show by Delta CEO Richard Anderson
As for Emirates, the most successful of the Gulf carriers, it has received at least $5 billion in subsidies since 2004, the report said.
"Although a pervasive lack of transparency in Dubai's aviation sector -- in combination with Emirates' failure to release its financial statements for the first 16 years of its existence -- precludes anything near a full quantification, information from public and confidential sources indicates that Emirates has received at least $5 billion in subsidies in the last 10 years alone," the report said.
http://www.thestreet.com/story/13051277/3/report-says-gulf-airlines-got-39b-with-more-to-come-in-illegal-subsidies.html
WorldTraveler said:
Question: what do you mean that the ME3 has had more success growing in Europe because of "greater amounts of airport space?" My impression was that most European airports are either slot controlled or have facility/gate/space restraints, certainly more so than USA airports?
IMHO, the Euro carriers have a lot more to fear of the ME3 than North American carriers. The only destinations from North America that the ME3 might be attractive option is to mid-east, India and Africa. Moreover, from MXP, EY doesn't have 5th freedom rights anyways. So why should DL be so concerned?
I think where DL should be concerned is when a ME3 carrier starts service to DTW. Which I'm kind of surprised none of them have done so, yet.
WorldTraveler
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just because they are slot controlled doesn't meant that continental European airports have more space than London's airports.
and the ME3 are growing outside of London.
and see you stuck your nose into a topic you don't know about.
EK (Emirates) DOES operate JFK-MXP as the extension of a DXB-MXP flight.
the reason why the ME3 haven't shown up to ATL, DTW, or MSP is because they couldn't survive without an interline ticketing agreement with DL. You do realize that DL cxld its ITB agreement with Turkish several years ago and so far as I know it has not been reinstated
THE US does have Open Skies with the EU and most of the EU countries have Open Skies with the ME3 home countries which means that the ME3 could very much become direct competitors in the US-EU TATL market.
and that is precisely why Richard Anderson is willing to be as vocal as he is now... .and why UA and AA are participating as well.
The EU carriers right now are weaker than the US carriers but ALL of the US carriers' TATL strategies are seriously impacted if the ME3 starts knocking off European carriers in one market after another. Add in Norwegian and other carriers and the future of the European legacies has never been more at risk. and the US carriers could be next.
Anyone who fails to realize where this could end up and eliminate the ability of the ME3 to expand into TATL markets until there is complete transparency of the finances of the ME3 and removal of all subsidies is asking for the US airline industry to be as impacted as the European industry has been.
and don't forget that every foreign carrier wants a piece of the US domestic market as well.
When the ME3 have the horrendous labor laws (or lack thereof) that they do, US airline workers should be motivated to act by any further invasion of the ME3 Plus Turkish into US markets.
and the ME3 are growing outside of London.
and see you stuck your nose into a topic you don't know about.
EK (Emirates) DOES operate JFK-MXP as the extension of a DXB-MXP flight.
the reason why the ME3 haven't shown up to ATL, DTW, or MSP is because they couldn't survive without an interline ticketing agreement with DL. You do realize that DL cxld its ITB agreement with Turkish several years ago and so far as I know it has not been reinstated
THE US does have Open Skies with the EU and most of the EU countries have Open Skies with the ME3 home countries which means that the ME3 could very much become direct competitors in the US-EU TATL market.
and that is precisely why Richard Anderson is willing to be as vocal as he is now... .and why UA and AA are participating as well.
The EU carriers right now are weaker than the US carriers but ALL of the US carriers' TATL strategies are seriously impacted if the ME3 starts knocking off European carriers in one market after another. Add in Norwegian and other carriers and the future of the European legacies has never been more at risk. and the US carriers could be next.
Anyone who fails to realize where this could end up and eliminate the ability of the ME3 to expand into TATL markets until there is complete transparency of the finances of the ME3 and removal of all subsidies is asking for the US airline industry to be as impacted as the European industry has been.
and don't forget that every foreign carrier wants a piece of the US domestic market as well.
When the ME3 have the horrendous labor laws (or lack thereof) that they do, US airline workers should be motivated to act by any further invasion of the ME3 Plus Turkish into US markets.
robbedagain
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Frugal Im really surprised that none of the ME3 has begun service to DTW which I believe has a very high population ME folks. But I wonder just how well Qatar is doing in PHL? I know they are doing at least some what ok bec we always get folks traveling with bags on interline flight connecting to the Qatar Airways flight out of PHL
WorldTraveler
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again, robbed, the reason why the ME3 haven't started service from ATL, DTW, or MSP is because DL has cancelled the interline ticketing agreement with Turkish Airlines before because TK was offerand ing deep discount fares that were undercutting DL fares and using DL domestic flights in order to compete against DL.
There is no foreign carrier that can survive even in ATL without having an ITB (ticketing agreement) with DL. Even LH and BA carry significant amounts of interline traffic connecting to their flights via DL even though those flights are not codeshare flights.
the ME3 knows full well that DL could pull its ITB which might hurt DL on ATL-DXB but it would hurt the ME3 (or anyone of them) if DL pulled the agreement with them.
and when an ITB is cxld, it is cxld to ALL cities including cities like JFK where DL delivers significant numbers of passengers to the ME3 even if there is no codeshare.
AA and UA haven't taken that step so there is far less at risk for the ME3. Also PHL has much less competition which makes it easier for Qatar to survive in PHL, where IIRC, they are using only a 787 which is fairly small.
There is no foreign carrier that can survive even in ATL without having an ITB (ticketing agreement) with DL. Even LH and BA carry significant amounts of interline traffic connecting to their flights via DL even though those flights are not codeshare flights.
the ME3 knows full well that DL could pull its ITB which might hurt DL on ATL-DXB but it would hurt the ME3 (or anyone of them) if DL pulled the agreement with them.
and when an ITB is cxld, it is cxld to ALL cities including cities like JFK where DL delivers significant numbers of passengers to the ME3 even if there is no codeshare.
AA and UA haven't taken that step so there is far less at risk for the ME3. Also PHL has much less competition which makes it easier for Qatar to survive in PHL, where IIRC, they are using only a 787 which is fairly small.
robbedagain
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Kev3188
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robbedagain
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