Swing States

[FredF]

So if a resident of a foreign country is trying to enter the US, why not do more than a few questions and search of their bags?

[post="179412"][/post]​

KC, in theory that sounds good except for the small fact that the majority of this country seems bent on one major flaw here and I shall elaborate.

The terrorist acts committed against the World Trade Center(both times) were committed by 18 to 30 middle eastern men. The bombing of the USS Cole was done by 18 to 30 middle eastern men. In fact the majority if not all of the terrorist acts committed in the last 10-15 years have been done by, who, 18-30 middle eastern men.

Who can the INS not take a hard look at? 18- 30 middle eastern men!

Total Blatant Stupidity.

Congress, the media and the ACLU scream loud and long if anyone even thinks that there is any kind of "Profiling" going on, yet that is exactly what we need.

 

[KCFlyer]

KC, in theory that sounds good except for the small fact that the majority of this country seems bent on one major flaw here and I shall elaborate.

The terrorist acts committed against the World Trade Center(both times) were committed by 18 to 30 middle eastern men. The bombing of the USS Cole was done by 18 to 30 middle eastern men. In fact the majority if not all of the terrorist acts committed in the last 10-15 years have been done by, who, 18-30 middle eastern men.

Who can the INS not take a hard look at? 18- 30 middle eastern men!

Total Blatant Stupidity.

Congress, the media and the ACLU scream loud and long if anyone even thinks that there is any kind of "Profiling" going on, yet that is exactly what we need.

[post="179420"][/post]​

Wrong Fred. I don't scream "profiling". I don't object to undergoing a bit more scrutiny when I come home from abroad. I don't have a problem with non-US citizens of any race, creed or color being subjected to a much more intense scrutiny. None of that is a problem. My problem is that the US government is now allowed to investigate, acquire records, spy, and do whatever else they want to do simply because they showed up at a rally that was critical of the sitting president. THAT's my problem. Why are some of you so willing to let your government violate rights via the passage of the Patriot Act - and yes, the mere passage of that law violates your rights, whether they spy on you or not - when implenting better security of our borders doesn't violate anyone's rights?

 

[FredF]

First off, I am not wrong. I never said you, I said Congress, the liberal media and the ACLU all scream about profiling.

Second, I tell you what, when you agree that there actaull is proof that there were direct links between iraq and al-queida, since I have shown links to plenty of proof,
then I will agree that just by the passage of that law, peoples rights have been violated even though you can't demonstrate it.

Sound good?

If you want to keep going on about how peoples rights have been violated, at least have something to back it up please.

 

[KCFlyer]

First off, I am not wrong. I never said you, I said Congress, the liberal media and the ACLU all scream about profiling.

Second, I tell you what, when you agree that there actaull is proof that there were direct links between iraq and al-queida, since I have shown links to plenty of proof,
then I will agree that just by the passage of that law, peoples rights have been violated even though you can't demonstrate it.

Sound good?

[post="179451"][/post]​

Fred - Here's why your rights have been violated:

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

College students attending an anti Bush Rally are subjected to investigation. That's scary stuff. YOUR right to peaceably assemble is directly threatened. This is a right that your forefathers fought and died for. Congress passed a law that abridges the freedom to peacealby assemble.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

The patriot act eliminates that "probable cause supported by oath or affirmation" part. Those are OUR rights. The patriot act effectively eliminates those rights. Your rights. No big deal if they don't impact you, right? But what about when they do? You see it as "let 'em...I got nothing to hide". But the door is open.

I say Saddam wasn't a threat to the US. You say he was. And if we didn't do something to stop him, then the "door was open" for another attack on the US. If "open doors" are potential threats in one scenario, why are they not a threat in another?

 

[FredF]

I say Saddam wasn't a threat to the US. You say he was. And if we didn't do something to stop him, then the "door was open" for another attack on the US. If "open doors" are potential threats in one scenario, why are they not a threat in another?

[post="179462"][/post]​

Here is the big difference. Sadam was actively, read that again actively trying to get his hands on nuclear and biological weapons. Actively.

He was supporting those that actively seek to cause death and destruction to America and her citizens.

Iraq was a state supporter of an organization that has been at war, yes war, and active and ongoing attempt to attack and kill americans. That constitutes and active threat to our safety and security. Innocent civilian lives have been lost as a direct and indirect result of his support for this organization and give the chance, he would have continued to support others to do the same thing.

As far as I can tell, the US government has not actively engaged in the unfettered trampeling of rights of it citizens. They have enacted some laws to make it easier to find out those that wish to continue to kill americans, but nowhere can I find where they have trampled on the rights of us citizens. Had they done this, had there been rampant cases of what you are proclaiming to have happened, then it would have already been al over the news papers and I am sure that Dan Rather would be screaming about it daily.

Anyone attending any function containing the President of the United States has been, and continues to be, subject to scrutiny by the Secret Service. Ask Lincoln how he liked the play.

The secret service has two jobs. One protect the currency. Two, protect the life of the President and by extension protect the succession of the Presidency. In case you only read the "Mainstream Media" we are at war. There are always people out there that would like nothing better than to harm the president, any president, but during this period in our history, unfortunately, that number has increased significantly.

Did you know that it is a Federal Felony to say that you are going to kill the president? Just by voicing that statement you can be subjected to time if Federal Big Boy Prison. Even if you don't mean it. That law has been on the books for years yet it has nevr been challenged by the ACLU. Why is that I wonder? Would that not qualify under your defination as a violation of the first amendment?

 

[AA-MCI]

Did you know that it is a Federal Felony to say that you are going to kill the president? Just by voicing that statement you can be subjected to time if Federal Big Boy Prison. Even if you don't mean it. That law has been on the books for years yet it has nevr been challenged by the ACLU. Why is that I wonder? Would that not qualify under your defination as a violation of the first amendment?

[post="179487"][/post]​

Name one person who has been convicted under that statute.......you can't because there haven't been any. The FBI and Secret Service investigate all such threats and assess them.

Just for the record, it's against the law to threaten ANYBODY's life. It's called making a terroristic threat. (Unless you're challenging them to a duel like Zell does, then it's called an interview.)

Are you saying you want the ACLU to oppose that?

 

[AA-MCI]

It's hard to know if your rights have been violated if you aren't allowed to be told what the laws are.

http://www.oaklandtribune.com/Stories/0,14...2397089,00.html

"That's because the regulations stem from two classified Federal Aviation Administration "security directives," one written in 1996, the other two months after 9/11. Laws written after 9/11 defined a new class of document "security sensitive information" and labeled the FAA regulations as such. Under the new laws, anybody who disclosed the regulations would be a criminal."

" The Justice Department declined comment on the case, because it is still being litigated. Gilmore had no such qualms.

"These rights aren't in the Constitution to protect you against a benevolent government. They're there to protect you against a government that has run amok. I wouldn't have filed the case if I thought I'd lose it," Gilmore said. "

 

[USAir757]

Last I checked, nobody had a "right" to be allowed entry into this country..... imagine if we had invested some of that in additional manpower at the borders.

Excellent... I agree!

No American citizen has a "right" to be assured of a hassle free re-entry into the United States. Being inconvenienced is not a violation of rights. So if a resident of a foreign country is trying to enter the US, why not do more than a few questions and search of their bags? When a US citizen returns from a trip abroad, why not question them a bit more - check their passports for countries they were in.

So just because somebody took a family vacation to Cancun, they should be subject to more scrutiny than a student who exhibits suspicious behavior at a political rally??? Doesn't seem to make sense to me. And besides, there are terrorists among us already in the United States who have no plans to leave before they carry out their duties.

How about spending a few bucks and link up with an international database (Interpol and the like) so that a search of non residents (non residents don't have the same rights as Americans) might quickly locate records from those countries on individuals. How about spending a bit and provide a little federal protection at US chemical plants? How about beefing up security at nuclear power plants? There are many things that we could have done (but haven't) to protect ourselves and not violate the rights of the US Citizens. Why aren't we doing them?

KC, I see search of non residents, protection, security.... yes they are helpful, but we had all this before 9/11. And after the next attack we'll still have it. It cannot prevent attacks... only make them a little more difficult. It's going to take a lot more than that to stop determined killers from carrying out their life-long dream.

 

[USAir757]

Name one person who has been convicted under that statute.......you can't because there haven't been any. The FBI and Secret Service investigate all such threats and assess them.

And I believe that was what had to have happened with these college kids. They had to have rubbed the FBI the wrong way... don't sit there and tell me that these kids got singled out of the roughly 50% of our nation who is voicing their opinions against this presidency, simply because they were protesting.

 

[AA-MCI]

And I believe that was what had to have happened with these college kids. They had to have rubbed the FBI the wrong way... don't sit there and tell me that these kids got singled out of the roughly 50% of our nation who is voicing their opinions against this presidency, simply because they were protesting.

[post="179589"][/post]​

So you're saying that accusation is equal to guilt? At what point are they allowed to know the charges against them or allowed to face their accusers?

That kind of thinking got the Germans famous - "They must have done something to be sent to the camps".

 

[USAir757]

So you're saying that accusation is equal to guilt? At what point are they allowed to know the charges against them or allowed to face their accusers?

That kind of thinking got the Germans famous - "They must have done something to be sent to the camps".

They weren't accused of anything that I know of. They were investigated... and whatever they did was worthy of checking out. If it wasn't, and what you say is true, then you'd have FBI at your door right now.

Are they in jail? No. Are they being accused? No, not yet. There's a difference between being arrested and being investigated that I'm sure I don't need to explain to you. But thanks for comparing those who protect us to the Nazi's. Feel the same way about our troops too?

 

[KCFlyer]

So just because somebody took a family vacation to Cancun, they should be subject to more scrutiny than a student who exhibits suspicious behavior at a political rally???

In short, yes. Increased security at our borders might be an inconvenience, but it is not a violation of their rights. You leave the country, you agree to undergo increased security reentering the country. You go to a political rally to protest and....you're on the "watch list". You know, if they are going to violate rights, the ones they really need to watch are those who support this administration. The ones who follow the President or Vice President wearing the Bush/Cheney stickers and the W '04 bumper sticker on their car. Remember back in 1968 how a guy named Arthur Bremer attempted to assasinate George Wallace? He posed as an "avid supporter"...leading cheers at the rally, until the last rally, where he shot Wallace. Seems to me the ones who pose a greater threat are the ones acting as if they support the president. You can't be too sure these days...and since the door is open to violate rights, might was well practice "equal time".

Doesn't seem to make sense to me. And besides, there are terrorists among us already in the United States who have no plans to leave before they carry out their duties.

Nope, it sure won't. But with more $$$ being funneled to "rebuild" Iraq and not increase our entry/re-entry requirements, then it's more likely that terrorists wanting to get into this country will pass right thru.

KC, I see search of non residents, protection, security.... yes they are helpful, but we had all this before 9/11. And after the next attack we'll still have it. It cannot prevent attacks... only make them a little more difficult. It's going to take a lot more than that to stop determined killers from carrying out their life-long dream.

And shaking up the hornets nest (half of Iraq is now controlled by groups who really ARE sympathetic to al queda) is a better way to protect ourselves?

 

[KCFlyer]

And I believe that was what had to have happened with these college kids. They had to have rubbed the FBI the wrong way... don't sit there and tell me that these kids got singled out of the roughly 50% of our nation who is voicing their opinions against this presidency, simply because they were protesting.

[post="179589"][/post]​

So..they might have said "That George Bush...he oughta be shot" and got an FBI investigation? And yes indeed I'm saying they might have done that. KC to Denver is a good days drive...nothing for a college kid to do. You know, there are people who feel strongly enough about something that they might want to do things like make their voice heard as loudly and often as possible. I'd bet you a dollar that those kids never said anything threating about Bush, other than he sucks as a president.

 

[AA-MCI]

They weren't accused of anything that I know of. They were investigated... and whatever they did was worthy of checking out. If it wasn't, and what you say is true, then you'd have FBI at your door right now.

Are they in jail? No. Are they being accused? No, not yet. There's a difference between being arrested and being investigated that I'm sure I don't need to explain to you. But thanks for comparing those who protect us to the Nazi's. Feel the same way about our troops too?

[post="179621"][/post]​

Spare me the pathetic attempts to question my patriotism, I did my time in uniform - unlike most of the Bush Leaguers. Also spare me the attempt to insinuate that I'm equating those who actually do protect us with the Nazis; if you were unable or unwilling to understand the analogy then have someone explain it to you. My Grandparents died in the camps along with millions of others because the German people didn't question those in authority and assumed that whatever was being done was all for their protection. Now you want us to do the same thing.

Are the people in question in Jail? No. Are the FBI watching their homes? Probably. Did the FBI speak to their friends and employers? Yes. Are they likely to become unemployable pariahs for their political beliefs? Probably, thanks to the FBI. Will they ever be allowed to hear why they were investigated or clear themselves of the charges? No.

If there was no accusation, then why was there an investigation? When will I know that the FBI IS investigating me, when they talk to my neighbors or my employer? What if they tell those they talk to not to discuss anything they talked to the FBI about?

If you're comfortable with an America where you're not allowed to know if you're being investigated or why you're being investigated, and not have any way to counter the charges then you can forget the Bill of Rights and should continue to try to be a 'Good German'.

Excuse me if I don't join you.

 

[USAir757]

Spare me the pathetic attempts to question my patriotism, I did my time in uniform - unlike most of the Bush Leaguers. Also spare me the attempt to insinuate that I'm equating those who actually do protect us with the Nazis; if you were unable or unwilling to understand the analogy then have someone explain it to you. My Grandparents died in the camps along with millions of others because the German people didn't question those in authority and assumed that whatever was being done was all for their protection. Now you want us to do the same thing.

I am going to resond to this, and then I'll let it go. Were you under the impression that I was "questioning your patriotism"? With all due respect, you were the one who made the concentration camp comparison, not me. I am personally insulted by your response, and your suggestion that you are better because you "did your time in uniform" blindly suggests that who you speak to has not done the same or more. Your Nazi comparison has nothing to do with the topic or the thread, your "Bush Leaguer" comment is inaccurate and erroneous, and your entire preceeding statement reeks of self-pity and arrogance.

Are the people in question in Jail? No. Are the FBI watching their homes? Probably. Did the FBI speak to their friends and employers? Yes. Are they likely to become unemployable pariahs for their political beliefs? Probably, thanks to the FBI. Will they ever be allowed to hear why they were investigated or clear themselves of the charges? No.

Watch a little too much Conspiracy Theory lately? Do you honestly believe these people will become unemployable? The FBI hasn't even released their names, or the report they have on them. They haven't even charged them with anything, so there will be nothing on their record. And I'm sure they already know quite well why they're being investigated, that is if they are guilty of something. And if they're not, then they'll be on their way. If these people did the same thing at an Anti-Kerry rally, I would hope they'd get the same kind of attention.

If you're comfortable with an America where you're not allowed to know if you're being investigated or why you're being investigated, and not have any way to counter the charges then you can forget the Bill of Rights and should continue to try to be a 'Good German'.

There were no charges, in this case. But to answer your question, yes. If the FBI thinks that I may be a terror suspect, or that I am planning an attack on this country, please investigate me. I have absolutely nothing to hide. I'd rather them do that, and find what my neighbor down the street might be hiding... so that when you and I are on our way to work, or at the public library, or at a sporting event, we will be less likely to be attacked by a terrorist. So I guess in your world that makes me German. I never knew, go figure. Guess I ought to go rent Schindler's List.