This Article Is Spreading Like Wildfire

[Trip Confirmed]

"It really doesn't matter if these particular individuals are or are not terrorists."



I have heard some pretty pathetic comments in my life, but I swear this is one of the worst.



I think the NWA passengers care. If you can round up some other crew members who don't care if there are terrorists aboad, please publicize their names.

There are a few people who died on September 11th who might disagree with you.

I am feeling seriously compelled to let the world see your comment.

 

[mweiss]

See, you still don't get it. The reason it doesn't matter whether or not they were terrorists is because the actions occurred, and nothing happened to prevent it. So if they were able to do it, then terrorists are able to do it, even if the people who were on that flight were innocent.

Am I making myself clear?

 

[Trip Confirmed]

BINGO.

Another passenger talking to the press. Dated today.



Second passenger saw suspicious behavior


By Audrey Hudson
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


Government officials are questioning a passenger's account of alarming and suspicious behavior by Syrian musicians aboard a recent flight to Los Angeles, although a second passenger has corroborated the events.
The second passenger, a frequent business traveler who asked not to be identified, provided a copy of her itinerary confirming she was on the June 29 Northwest Airlines Detroit-to-Los Angeles Flight 327, which was disrupted by 14 Syrian passengers later identified as musicians.

The passenger, who was riding in first class, said the constant foot traffic and strange behavior she witnessed in the front cabin frightened her as much as it did Annie Jacobsen, the first passenger who publicly reported the incident.
"I thought I was going to die," the second passenger told The Washington Times. "And that makes me furious because that's the whole point of terrorism, to make people afraid. It makes me mad that they achieved that. But I'm not letting it stop me from taking other trips."
The incident on Flight 327 highlighted concerns that terrorists have been making "dry runs" on commercial jets in preparation for attacks.
Homeland Security and FBI officials briefed Senate Judiciary Committee staffers Wednesday. The House Judiciary Committee also is conducting an oversight review of what happened on the flight.
Federal officials agreed the activity was suspicious but doubted the account by Mrs. Jacobsen and her husband, said one staffer who attended the briefing.
"They emphasized repeatedly there were material discrepancies between what the two [passengers] reported and what the flight attendants and federal air marshals observed," the staffer said.
Air marshals, pilots and flight attendants, however, back the passenger's account because they say such events are happening regularly.
"Flight attendants see these dry runs and are very concerned," one attendant who praised Mrs. Jacobsen for going public said yesterday. "We, as employees, do not have as much freedom as passengers when it comes to speaking out."
The Homeland Security Department did not return a call for comment, but has said it has no intelligence on such activities.
The 14 passengers on Flight 327 were detained by the FBI's Terrorism Task Force after the flight and were determined to be a Syrian band booked to play a gig near San Diego with singer Nour Mehana.
Homeland Security officials described the 14 as "just musicians," but freelance writer Heather Wilhelm discovered that Mr. Mehana had recorded a song, "Um El Shaheed," ("Mother of a Martyr") in which he sang the "glorious" praise of a suicide bomber.
The second passenger on Flight 327 said the men were "up and down the aisles of the plane the entire time," and that one of the men pushed other passengers as he rushed toward the front lavatory. She said the man did not appear to be ill, and remained in the lavatory during her entire meal.
Mrs. Jacobsen said the Syrians consecutively filed in and out of restrooms, and stood during most of the flight. Just before landing, seven of the men jumped up in unison and left their seats. Upon returning to his seat, one man mouthed the word "no" as he ran his finger across his throat.
"There was more activity up and down the aisle through first class than I have ever experienced on any flight, including international flights," the second passenger said. "The most unusual part was that the flight attendants seemed to ignore what was going on."
The second passenger said she did not share her concerns with the flight attendants because "I thought I was just crazy, and I didn't want to be the crazy person on the flight that stands up and says something is wrong, but I will now in the future. I praise Annie for what she did, because I didn't have the guts to."

 

[Trip Confirmed]

Am I making myself clear?

No, it sounds like complete babble to me. No sense at all.

 

[Trip Confirmed]

OK,
MSNBC just did the interview. I have it on tape.

They just nailed Northwest Airlines to the wall.

There is NO wiggle room on this one.

If this doesn't affect the NWA stock, I'm an astronaut.

 

[NWA/AMT]

I am feeling seriously compelled to let the world see your comment.

Well, feel free to let the world see my comment as well:

No one at NWA takes our responsibility to our passengers any less seriously than anyone else in this or any other transportation industry and your comments to the contrary are a slap in the face to a lot of the people who are working very hard to keep our passengers safe. To assert that any one airline is more safe or less safe than any other is the worst sort of fear-mongering and plays right into the hands of the terrorists and makes me wonder what your real motives are.

As I said before, vigilance is good and paranoia is bad. What you are spreading here is blind paranoia. Do you seriously consider that by you are somehow helping our industry by spreading rumors and half-verified horror stories? The airline industry is not as safe as it could be - the only real way to ensure that 9/11 never recurs is to cease operations completely. Just because we at NWA were not targeted on 9/11 does not mean we have somehow less of an understanding of the threat we all face from terrorism than those who were.

Before 9/11 our industry was far behind reality in its understanding of what the threat of terrorism meant. Now we are more vigilant but we understand the basic reality that no defense is, or can be, perfect. We search the passengers, we search their luggage, we search the plane before they get on it, we search all the food carts and other things that are placed on it, we train our crews to keep the passsengers under constant surveillance, arm the pilots and place armed undercover officers on board and still, if the terrorists are determined enough, it will not be enough.

No one who has thought seriously about the issue thought that the terrorists were going away and we know they are going to keep probing us, just as they keep probing every other facet of our society they think they can exploit to their ends. However, discussing every aspect of our security measures or their alleged failures in detail in a public forum like this one will certainly save them a lot of work, don't you think?

Enjoy your Chicken Little moment and make all the indignant comments you wish - In the meantime real people are working to solve real problems without your help.

 

[Trip Confirmed]

Do you seriously consider that by you are somehow helping our industry by spreading rumors and half-verified horror stories?

I guess this says it all.

So much for one being well read or reasonably informed on world events.

 

[hp_fa]

NWA/AMT

Bravo! I fully agree with you.

 

[Trip Confirmed]

However, discussing every aspect of our security measures or their alleged failures in detail in a public forum like this one will certainly save them a lot of work, don't you think?[/b]

Sorry,

I didn't realize I had told the world all about your security measures,since I do not work for NWA. I was only discussing the failures. These are now public knowlege.

The security measures would have been a bit difficult, since I have no clue what they are,nor do you,apparently.

How my posts could have helped a terrorist?

Get real, fella.

I think terrorists already have your number.

I only pray that I'm wrong. There are a lot of innocent passengers and NWA employees.

I sincerely hope you all get your duckies in a row.

I'm terrified that PC will mean the death of many more Americans.

Sure hope I'm wrong.

But I doubt it.

 

[mweiss]

No, it sounds like complete babble to me. No sense at all.

I'm curious...is the problem me or TripConfirmed? Did I make any sense to the rest of you?

 

[Trip Confirmed]

Some Americans just ain't happy...............
Article Raises Airline-Security Questions
Associated Press, by LESLIE MILLER,

Original Article

Posted By:Blue Moon, 8/2/2004 106 AM

WASHINGTON - A writer's harrowing account of the odd actions of 14 Middle Eastern men aboard a Detroit-to-Los Angeles flight in June is prompting new concerns about airline security. The men traveling together on the Northwest flight lingered in the bathroom, congregated in the aisles and signaled each other during the trip, according to the account. Passengers and the crew feared the men planned a hijacking, said the writer, Annie Jacobsen.

Comments:
Well, look what's bubbled up all the way to AP now.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply 1 - Posted by: CedarFever, 8/2/2004 1:46:12 AM

Wow. Talk about being behind the power curve...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 2 - Posted by: MsCharlotteVale, 8/2/2004 2:24:26 AM

"No one from the Immigration and Customs Enforcement bureau questioned the men, which the Homeland Security Department now acknowledges was a mistake."

Well, then, all the naysayers of Ms. Jacobsen can answer that one.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 3 - Posted by: GoldenSt8r, 8/2/2004 5:24:02 AM

Too bad they can't figure out some way to let the frightened passengers know that the authorities are on top of things in these kinds of situations. When passengers don't think their concerns are being addressed, and if the suspicious person(s) makes a move, I can picture a group of passenegers pouncing on the guy(s) at the same time an air marshall is dashing forward with his gun drawn. Could turn ugly, especially since passengers are feeling more empowered to take matters into their own hands now, and they don't even know if there is an air marshall on their flight.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 4 - Posted by: steveW, 8/2/2004 5:28:13 AM

This is definitely a case for Norm Mineta. Norm, Norm, where are you? We need to stop these racist profilers dead in their tracks before anyone's feelings are hurt!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 5 - Posted by: pineledger, 8/2/2004 5:37:19 AM

The 2-Arab rule needs beefing up. Make that 1 Arab per flight.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 6 - Posted by: NorthernDog, 8/2/2004 6:18:00 AM

After L-Dotters e-mailed her story to dozens of others, the AP catches up. Sounds like it has happened before too...maybe we should arm the flight attendents.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 7 - Posted by: JLoophole, 8/2/2004 6:27:17 AM

Seems I recall one LDotter being told that this was an urban myth. Good grief.

I swear, sometimes in or hurry to be nice, or believe the best in others, Americans can be so deliberately stupid.

Maybe we need to hire Israelis for our airport security.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 8 - Posted by: Maybeth, 8/2/2004 6:29:42 AM

A related story last week informed that these musicians were to be followed to the 'event' for which they were going be the entertainment. I have read nothing further about that. I wonder if they were, in fact, tailed. I wonder if our law enforcement agencies followed through on this ....... and were in the audience of the supposed performance by this band.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 9 - Posted by: shards, 8/2/2004 7:03:32 AM

"We want an alert citizenry as one of our best defenses," Murphy said."

Then why was Annie's story 'dismissed' as a misunderstanding by government officials! (Was anyone from immigration fired?) Now that our threat level has been raised yet again, this time specifically mentioning car and truck bombs, Annie was on to something. They're out there and up to no good. Let's not make it easy for them.

Is immigration working?




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 10 - Posted by: NancyD, 8/2/2004 732 AM

I want men at flight attendants. Not GIRLY-MEN, I want "Chuck Norris" type of men.

It doesn't matter to me if a woman is attractive as my flight attendant.

I want someone who can kick *ss when its necessary.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 11 - Posted by: The Road Apple, 8/2/2004 7:08:34 AM

"Why, yes it is important for our band members to discuss the music while in the air from Detroit to California and since the thought of playing our music makes our bowels loose, we must spend time in the toilet. Of course matches and fuses are important musical instruments in our music." /s


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 12 - Posted by: bryk, 8/2/2004 725 AM

Hmmm. Secret federal marshalls don't seem to be doing the trick of assuaging the passengers...

Why not have two beefy security types fly on the flights as well? Have some handy to fly whenever there is a questionable passenger list. Citizens would feel better. Baddies would know they were being watched (as opposed to thinking that we were just being Mineta-stupid) and we would still, also, have the undercover marshall (who would be more undercover than before) to assist.

Could be part of the 'Join the Army, See the World (or at least, a lot of airports)' recruitment campaign.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 13 - Posted by: webweaver , 8/2/2004 7:15:16 AM

http://www.womenswallstreet.com/WWS/

Terror in the Skies, Again?
Links to all the news articles regarding Annie's scare.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 14 - Posted by: valleystorm, 8/2/2004 735 AM

When the FBI questioned the men after the plane landed, it is not clear the agent examined the musicians' immigration status or checked whether their visas had expired.

Unacceptable. The bureaucrats didn't do their jobs.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 15 - Posted by: caprine, 8/2/2004 7:27:04 AM

We want an alert citizenry as one of our best defenses.
And WE want the government to go on OFFENSE.
Either protect us or step aside.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 16 - Posted by: Shucky, 8/2/2004 7:29:44 AM

I still think this is willful genocidal negligence on the part of mineta, who is looking for a way to avenge his detention in ww2. Will he keep his job when the terrorists succeed?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 17 - Posted by: Liberty7, 8/2/2004 7:37:43 AM

It doesn't make any difference whether or not the visas had expired as long as they had not expired when they entered the U.S. This material has been posted before:
*The Expiration Date for the visa should not be confused with the authorized length of your stay in the U.S., given to you by the U.S. immigration inspector at port-of-entry, on the Arrival-Departure Record, Form I-94, or I-94W for the Visa Waiver Program. The visa expiration date has nothing to do with the authorized length of your stay in the U.S. for any given visit.*
http://travel.state.gov/visa/tempvisitors_...dditional2.html


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 18 - Posted by: Rbee, 8/2/2004 7:39:31 AM

Women's wall street is a great site, they will send you updates on reactions to Jacobsen's article.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 19 - Posted by: billy, 8/2/2004 7:44:22 AM

This does not give me much confidence in our bureaucrats. I agree with one thing. We ought to have a rule. Only one Arab per flight. After he has been strip searched. And his phone, camera and any thing else that could conceal plastic explosive confiscated and examined.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 20 - Posted by: Daisymay, 8/2/2004 808 AM

I'm STILL a firm believer that the AIRLINES will not allow any security measures that will slow down their boarding procedure. MINETA will not allow profiling and the Air Marshals did NOTHING on that flight to reassure the PASSENGERS that these guys were under their control. All of that adds up to DON'T FLY! We, the PAYING PUBLIC must FORCE the Airlines to change, the only we can do that it to hit them where it hurts...in their Pocketbook. I for one will not fly. Is it going to be inconvenient for me. You bet. Is it worth trading a couple of days on the road in a car as opposed to possibly losing my life in an Airplane that has been taken over by Terrorists. You bet! My husband and I flew in July. If I had seen 14 Middle Eastern boarding my plane...I would have gotten off. Don't care if I hurt their feelings!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 21 - Posted by: Dolley Madison, 8/2/2004 822 AM

Well, I'm doing my part to create an alert citizenry! I've been notifying everyone I know about this occurence; especially those I know that are flying. I've told them what to be on the lookout for, and to NOT JUST SIT THERE and be silent, but get up and report it. Even if the person was firghtened and did not want to hear about it, I told them. Better to be forewarned and able to report it to someone, than dead.


YES, I want MEN as flight attendants!! Excellent idea; change this entire idea of who is suitable for attending on flights.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 22 - Posted by: Freedomlover, 8/2/2004 8:24:11 AM

How many people are going to have to die before President Bush gets rid of Manetta?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 23 - Posted by: Peter Zimbelman, 8/2/2004 8:37:49 AM

Remember how


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 24 - Posted by: texaslass3, 8/2/2004 8:53:46 AM

#8 I doubt these men were "tailed." Its easy for officials (when the story got out and major criticism ensued) to say that because they know none of us can check that out. This was an important story which revealed what retiring stews are telling us. Our political correctness (which IS flowing from Mineta) is going to result in another airline tragedy.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 25 - Posted by: David222, 8/2/2004 9:02:40 AM

No mention in the article about Mehanna's most popular song. It celebrates terrorism.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 26 - Posted by: amereagle, 8/2/2004 952 AM

Leftwing social re-engineering and destruction of what makes America, America ("it takes a village", "all cultures are equal", "Islam is no worse than any other religion", "why do they hate us", "it's America's fault") is as bad a problem as the Islamic terrorists themselves.

Vote Republican.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 27 - Posted by: petie3, 8/2/2004 9:12:19 AM

This hold0ver from Clinton's treachery rivals Gorelick's wall in its stupidity and self-destructive results. It's like they want us dead. Can't stand people west of the Hudson or south of the Mason-Dixon, NASCAR bar-be-que NRA down home types. Want us all wiped out?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 28 - Posted by: MMC, 8/2/2004 9:13:59 AM

I want the Israeli's teaching the airlines about National Security as well.

I would love to see the Mossad cross training our CIA/FBI agents as well. Israeli intelliegence rocks.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 29 - Posted by: TruthRules, 8/2/2004 9:24:16 AM

I was very surprised and disappointed to see the way snopes.com has treated this story. Usually, they are very thorough about checking stories out, but they seemed to immediately dismiss Jacobsen's account and automatically with no question accept the word of others ('officials' etc) who were not on the flight. In addition, they failed to snoop around enough to learn more about the Syrian 'band' in question -- for example, that the subject matter of the singer's biggest hit glorifies a Palestian suicide (homocide) bomber.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 30 - Posted by: YY4U, 8/2/2004 9:28:09 AM

Whether these men are proto-terrorists, just musicians or scouts machts nichts. The terrorists are suceeding. We are becoming afraid to fly which will eventually collapse the airlines which will eventually harm the economy which will eventually change American life style. All because of politically correct idiots in government who are afraid to do what has to be done PROFILE.
Regarding this story, I think the government both Dem and Repub TRY to keep the citizenry innocent much as parents don't let the kids know Daddy lost his job. They don't trust "we the people" anymore. And I include the GOP in this mindset--they're just not quite as bad as the Dems in their paternalistic-statism.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 31 - Posted by: Namma, 8/2/2004 9:38:53 AM

Annie mentioned that one of the 14 middle eastern men had a yellow notebook that he would take out of his pocket and read...then replace the notebook and bring it back out when one of the other 14 went into or out of the bathrooms......where is that notebook....why was the note book not taken away and read when these guys were questioned.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 32 - Posted by: fed up, 8/2/2004 9:43:17 AM

I fly almost every week on business. I am sometimes shocked at the gaps and holes that seem to exist...for example...

- I checked in last week at the ticket counter, and the agent never once asked me or my travel partner for an I.D.

- Worse yet, AA lost my luggage recently (on a direct flight, no less). When I called to find out if it had been put on the next flight, the baggage department told me that they wouldn't know if it got put on a flight until that flight landed. They couldn't see when a bag got put on the flight, only when it came off. HELLO????

God help us all. I say a prayer upon takeoff and landing as a part of my typical flight routine now.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 33 - Posted by: Israeli Nightrider, 8/2/2004 9:44:18 AM

What's happen with your security units it's a true scandal. After passengers go through unpleasant security checks, they finaly receive not a quiet flight but 14 Syrians that can bomb the plane in every moment?!
If this is the result, than the security checks are a total failure.

The fish stinks from the head. Bush has to fire the actual responsible and to infuse new blood there, new ideas. Maybe Giuliani.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 34 - Posted by: PoliticalJunky, 8/2/2004 9:48:42 AM

Mineta absolutely has to go. But I doubt Pres. Bush will remove him before the election.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 35 - Posted by: nofreelunch, 8/2/2004 9:49:09 AM

How can anyone say ''Transportation SECURITY Administration'' with a straight face ?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 36 - Posted by: votedforbush, 8/2/2004 9:57:05 AM

I'm with #2. Some need to apologize for not taking a citizen's observations seriously.

Scarborough's show tonight will have another person speak up who was on the flight.

Mineta is a detriment to the safety of all Americans who fly. Get rid of him, the liberal Democrat that he is. His no-profiling rule will get us all killed.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 37 - Posted by: vikmac, 8/2/2004 9:58:05 AM

I complained to Snopes that they were being premature by labeling this story false. I've usually checked e-mail stories with them before and took their word but now I'm not so sure Snopes should be the final authority on urban myths.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 38 - Posted by: Vimvig, 8/2/2004 10:03:17 AM

Flight Attendent used to be call stewardess.
Back in the 1930's when the DC-3 were used by airlines, stewardesses could not be over 5'2" in height and had to be a registered nurse and of course they were double X chromosome. Than they were called flight attendents after some males became attendents. Many of these men did not add much to security as the were weak wristed.
Now we need drastic changes by having only attendents with X and Y chromsomes and of
short, compact mesomorphic build.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 39 - Posted by: TruthRules, 8/2/2004 10:03:28 AM

#37 This shook my confidence in Snopes as well.

Did the people at Snopes respond to you? I checked this morning to see if they had paid attention to the follow-up stories regarding this incident, but they just seem to want to dismiss both Jacobsen and her story, regardless of the additional info that has surfaced.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 40 - Posted by: WisGal, 8/2/2004 10:17:36 AM

#7 - "Seems I recall one LDotter being told that this was an urban myth. Good grief."

Unfortunately, I think the web site www.snopes.com is actually listing it as a FALSE story. I usually trust them and use them all the time to debunk stupid emails I get, but this time they are way off base.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 41 - Posted by: Don Marquis, 8/2/2004 10:25:05 AM

Number one:

Arm the pilots.

Number two:



Dump Minetta!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 42 - Posted by: Liberty7, 8/2/2004 10:36:06 AM

I don't really have anything against getting rid of Mineta, but he is Secretary of Transportation. The Transportation Security Adminstration was transferred to the Department of Homeland Security when it was created, so he has nothing to do with its operations. There may be somethings that the Department of Transportation does in regulating the airlines that may be adversely impacting security, but I am unsure what they are.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 43 - Posted by: earlybird, 8/2/2004 10:38:34 AM

Go back and read snopes very carefully. I did. The part of the story that they have labelled false is that it was a dry run by terrorists. Even the government has said that in this case they don't believe that that was true.

Snopes has not said that AJ's entire story was false. Have another look.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 44 - Posted by: Thomcat, 8/2/2004 10:40:29 AM


What #30 said.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 45 - Posted by: pub_crawler, 8/2/2004 11:08:43 AM

Right after 9-11 there was much talk about reinforcing the cockpit doors so they could not be breeched. Jet Blue was the only airline I heard of that even claimed to do this.

I haven't heard a word about securing the cockpit doors since then. This seems a no brainer and the least the airlines could have done with the 15 billion dollar federal bail out. Perhaps the money went to executive bonuses.

I have no faith in the authorities to stop another hijacking. They've lost at least a dozen round-trip fares from me since 9-11.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 46 - Posted by: chocoholic, 8/2/2004 11:08:58 AM

Fire Mineta and political correctness NOW. Arm all pilots NOW. Get tough with Arabs/Muslims/Middle Eastern types who try to board our aircraft NOW.

Better safer NOW than sorry after.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 47 - Posted by: mc squared, 8/2/2004 11:22:13 AM

Snopes.com is still listing this event as an urban myth:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/skyterror.asp


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 48 - Posted by: gingersnap13, 8/2/2004 11:35:30 AM

Mineta is undermining the President at every turn. He is pushing a tax, or tariff on truck drivers which is turning the drivers to Kerry.
He never should have been kept in that job.
Question: I never hear anything about the airline passenger who was caught trying to pull the mirror off the rest room wall behind the piolet's seat. Did they just allow him to leave as well? Just when are the airlines going to get serious about security? Have they put the pencil pushers in charge. Have they decided it's not cost effective to enforce security?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 49 - Posted by: Delilah, 8/2/2004 11:35:49 AM

I don't understand the conclusion that these guys were innocent musicians. Where is it written that musicians cannot also be terrorists? This false thinking will get us killed.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 50 - Posted by: MadMac, 8/2/2004 11:42:32 AM

I flew out of RDU last week, and made it all the way through screening without ever taking my ID out of my wallet. I mentioned this fact to to the slovenly TSA toad, who, of course, had to get the supervisor. The TSA supervisor went frenetic telling me it wasn't *his* job to check my ID, and that it was the job of the two elderly ladies hired by the airport who had failed in *their* duties.

He repeatedly claimed it was not his his responsibility - hence no foul.

The TSA and the driver's license bureau - the same people, the same attitudes, just different uniforms.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 51 - Posted by: mab2, 8/2/2004 11:43:00 AM

What really frosts me is the almost immediately automatic assumption that Annie Jacobsen was merely being hysterical. That mindset needs to be hammered!! BTW, Mineta is NOT a holdover. He was appointed by President Bush. What probably seemed a good idea at the time has certainly not panned out.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 52 - Posted by: cagopfan, 8/2/2004 11:57:42 AM

Some people have advocated all-male flight attendants, and that would be a good idea. I recall a flight to Israel in 1980--security was very tight and every one of the 'attendants' who offered 'coffee, tea or Sabra' could have led a comando raid, if needed. I felt very safe!!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 53 - Posted by: Clipped Wings, 8/2/2004 11:58:03 AM

TSA = Thousands Standing Around.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 54 - Posted by: MarsNeedsWomen, 8/2/2004 11:58:15 AM

This article should at least have referenced the "Mother of a Martyr" song, written & recorded by 'Wayne Newton,' IMO. I doubt this complete omission was accidental, either, since the AP writer seems to have a rather relaxed attitude about the entire incident.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 55 - Posted by: YY4U, 8/2/2004 12:37:51 PM

#50 must have been wearing Arab headdress (smile) not to have to show ID at RDU.

Last November, at Newark, I saw a 5'4", gray haired lady whose expensive Italian shoes set off the alarm get pulled out of line and nearly strip-searched -- wanded from armpits to ankles.

She kept her cool, but I imagined her thinking "Sure, you jerks, fat little gray haired Anglo-Saxon women are really into hijacking airplanes, aren't they?"

The tail is wagging the dog. The fallacy is that the ONLY people shrieking about "profiling" are the Arab savages who want to blow us up. Arabs who don't want to blow us up are just as concerned about getting killed as the rest of us. Or have they stopped flying? Would be an interesting tidbit to know. How many Muslim-Americans are flying these days? Have the stats increased? Or dropped? Do they know something we don't know?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 56 - Posted by: right-turn, 8/2/2004 12:38:54 PM

Remember the old western movies and the stage coach with someone riding 'shotgun'? That's what we need.... an armed deputy with a shotgun, not some hidden pistol. Maybe in complete western garb and a 10 gal hat so he can peer under the brim at anyone looking suspicious.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 57 - Posted by: YY4U, 8/2/2004 12:54:38 PM

We never fight fire with fire.

What about "dummy" trucks riding around Iraq with a contingent of Kick-A marines secretly in back? When terrorists attempt to kidnap said truck driver, they might get more than they bargained for. If they live, lots of good "intel" could come out of it. It certainly would give them pause before hijacking an innocent truck driver.

Why aren't planes equipped with toilet facilities for the cockpit crew and the door locked and barred so that if a plane is scheduled to go to NYC from LA, that is the ONLY PLACE it's going? Attendants cannot contact pilots once the flight takes off, so if a crazy hijacks the plane, he/she has nothing to gain? Doctors fly free if they agree to take care of any emergency during the flight. Soldiers fly free if they agree to intercede if a crazy tries to grab the plane.

Maybe even an "emergency evac hole" so that if soldiers, marshalls, passengers, etc do manage to apprehend someone attempting a hijacking, they can just pitch his sorry youknowwhat out over Cleveland. Do that a couple of times, and we wouldn't have to worry about planes being hijacked.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 58 - Posted by: mamamoose, 8/2/2004 1:01:56 PM

No.8, yes, the answer is yes. The targets were followed, questions asked, it was there discovered that they had expired visas. I would like to cite the news source, but I cannot remember it. They did have legitimate work. Hmmmm, I wonder what they sound like.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 59 - Posted by: roxe, 8/2/2004 102 PM

What #57 said... double!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 60 - Posted by: federale, 8/2/2004 1:24:03 PM

It certainly makes sense to arm pilots of passenger and cargo aircraft. There won't be any civilian passengers or air marshalls to restrain potential hijackers on cargo flights.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 61 - Posted by: The Chairman, 8/2/2004 1:35:38 PM

Read the original story by Annie and have some conclusions:

1. This was definitely a dry run and practice takeover.
2. Any group like this needs to have everything with them THOROUGHLY inspected, including instruments, prosthetic devices, etc.
3. If there is suspicious behaviour like this, and there are air marshall's on board, they should immediately cuff them, and put them under guard.
4. Arabs and those looking suspicious should be carefully inspected before they board - positive profiling If Mineta won't allow it, he should be fired. If laws need to be changed - change them.

WE ARE AT WAR AND NEED TO ACT THAT WAY!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 62 - Posted by: Mother of AL, 8/2/2004 1:46:47 PM

People, it is time we started wrtiting. Start with [email protected]. Get rid of Minetta!!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 63 - Posted by: nattering_nabob, 8/2/2004 2:18:47 PM

WWJKD?

What would John Kerry do?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 64 - Posted by: Cybernetic, 8/2/2004 4:07:54 PM

#64 - Kerry's not worried; he owns his own plane (well, Teresa owns the plane, but you know how it is). Flying commercial is for the unwashed masses.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 65 - Posted by: meanwesttexan, 8/2/2004 4:16:33 PM

My theory regarding this: (1) they really were a band that flew around a fair amount; (2) the rapidly became aware that people were (correctly) scared of them; (3) they decided to have some "fun" with stupid Americans by doing overtly suspicious things (e.g., the choriographed going to the bathroom; leaving the Wendy's bag behind, etc); and (4) things spiraled out of control.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 66 - Posted by: Ceci, 8/2/2004 4:23:41 PM

"Maybe even an "emergency evac hole" so that if soldiers, marshalls, passengers, etc do manage to apprehend someone attempting a hijacking, they can just pitch his sorry youknowwhat out over Cleveland. Do that a couple of times, and we wouldn't have to worry about planes being hijacked."


Just like Ripley did at the end of the original "Alien" movie. I like it!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 67 - Posted by: noddy, 8/2/2004 4:42:03 PM

And since these most recent alerts concerning financial buildings in NY people are questioning What Should We do? And they are being told to stay alert and report suspicious happenings and people taking pictures of buildings. (Tourists tend to take pictures while on vacation.)

Listen up. Report Arabs behaving suspiciously, and once reported to the correct authorities, then call Fox News. I know it's called profiling, but when you consider that this recent threat came from the Arab world, that's who you should be suspicious of.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 68 - Posted by: Dolley Madison, 8/2/2004 4:57:24 PM

#33 -- YES!! And the end of the period for the government to control security checks on the airline ends in September, I believe. It will be time to hire private sector companies to take it over and do a much better job.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 69 - Posted by: MarsNeedsWomen, 8/2/2004 506 PM

68#

Yeah! Maybe we can get Arbogast back! They were the fools that caused TSA to hire fulltime feds in the first place, but at least they were private! That makes them GOOOOD!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 70 - Posted by: webweaver , 8/2/2004 5:23:52 PM

#37 and #39
Maybe Snopes is a Muslim.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 71 - Posted by: Cisco, 8/2/2004 5:34:47 PM

Looks like they have decided that their efforts to trash and discredit Annie Jacobsen weren't working any better than the Clinton's bashing of Monica.

Mineta's goons had the same reaction as most other bad public servants - draw the wagons in a circle and shoot the messengers.

It's time for Mineta (and Tom Ridge) to go and its time for the president to get serious about our border security and to heed his own words 'If you're not with us, you're against us'.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 72 - Posted by: Fledrmaus, 8/2/2004 5:48:40 PM

#65 - could have been. But if I ever decided to "have a little fun" on board a plane by, say pretending that I had a bomb in my purse, I'd be in JAIL. I've read the signs in the airport that forbid flippant comments or jokes about bombs - acting out a little terrorism playlet in midair should have resulted in 14 punks cooling their heels in the can, and lots of work for some Syrian consular officer. None of that happened, and I want to know why.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 73 - Posted by: curious1, 8/2/2004 611 PM

Mineta was appointed in Jan. 2001 by Pres. Bush.

He was Secreatry of Commerce under Pres. Clinton.

He was in the House of Representatives for CA from 1975 to 1995.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 74 - Posted by: votedforbush, 8/2/2004 650 PM

#71 - Well said!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 75 - Posted by: ILoveLucy, 8/2/2004 649 PM

#28, Israeli security forces DID help train the new US airport/airline security forces. Read about it a long time ago, and remember thinking that we went to the top for advice.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 76 - Posted by: cairnterrier, 8/2/2004 6:46:47 PM

That's right. You would have been arrested, and so would I have been, because neither of us are Muslims!!!!! Had we been, there would have been no fear of the arresting authority running afoul of the ACLU or the Democrat National Committee. What a poster said earlier, the Islamofascists have carte blanche. No one wants to be accused of "racism". Little grey haired WASP old ladies can't make accusations of racism. We have already lost this war through a total and complete lack of will to domestically identify the enemy and aggressively engage him.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 77 - Posted by: TruthRules, 8/2/2004 6:53:03 PM

Absolutely agree with #76.


Also, agree that Mineta has proven to be an extremely poor choice, and the Bush Administration would be smart to replace him ASAP!!




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 78 - Posted by: jmurr, 8/2/2004 745 PM

Didn't Mexico hire Rudolph Guiliani to consult about security and cleaning up Mexico City?

I'd say we need to hire some Israelis for the same thing.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 79 - Posted by: webweaver , 8/2/2004 8:06:44 PM

If you have been following the Annie Jacobsen story, you might be interested in reading the two articles listed below.

http://www.womenswallstreet.com/WWS/Images...the_AP_Wire.pdf

http://washingtontimes.com/national/200407...11508-5912r.htm



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 80 - Posted by: Rumblehog, 8/2/2004 8:07:43 PM

Fire Norman Mineta, NOW!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 81 - Posted by: stormy, 8/2/2004 919 PM

#43, I went back and read the Snopes report. Yes, the thing they've labeled false is that terrorists were making a dry-run. The only thing to substantiate this are the rebuttal reports we've seen...nothing new. What IS new is the authorities saying that it was a mistake not to have the immigration people question them. This is TOTALLY unacceptable! And, if visas are so hard to read, why haven't all the security forces been trained to do so?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 82 - Posted by: Chance, 8/2/2004 9:35:48 PM

Right, a shotgun is just the thing. At 35 thousand feet, a lot of holes in the aircraft should be fun.
Next time you board a plane, announce 'all Air Marshalls please stand up.'
You need to know if you want to be another 'troublemaker' like Annie Jacobsen.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 83 - Posted by: lexusep, 8/2/2004 9:54:06 PM

Scarborough will have another passenger from that flight on his show tonight.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 84 - Posted by: webweaver , 8/2/2004 10:36:16 PM

Annie is on MSNBC right now.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 85 - Posted by: earlybird, 8/2/2004 11:23:19 PM

Re #81, visas aren't hard to read. It's just that the visa expiration date has nothing to do with the duration of the traveler's stay here. No one has mentioned the I-94 card, which is the official form that does set forth the legal duration of stay and would have been stapled in their passports.

I'd bet money that these guys ultimately turned out to be legal - with visas that had expired after they entered the country, which is legal, and I-94s that had not yet expired.

Remember that the report about their 'expired visas!' first emanated from Scott Weinberg, a reporter for WNBC-NYC, who reported on Scarborough Country that someone told him that someone had told them that they'd seen xerocopies of the visas, made while the musicians were detained at LAX, and they had expired. Full stop. No mention of I-94s.

The musicians were allowed to go on to their gig in San Diego and ultimately went home in mid-July. Probably before their I-94s expired.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 86 - Posted by: dixie, 8/2/2004 11:35:08 PM

They let a whole passel of Arabs on that plane, but I bet there wasn't one skymarshall around. Why else would they try to deny it happened?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Reply 87 - Posted by: Muguy, 8/2/2004 1113 PM

C Y A

 

[NWA/AMT]

I'm curious...is the problem me or TripConfirmed? Did I make any sense to the rest of you?

No Mike, the problem isn't you. You're just not being hysterical enough.

 

[NWA/AMT]

I was only discussing the failures. These are now public knowlege.

Alleged failures, since no actual event took place. Do you not think that if this was a real test of our security that those who were testing it don't appreciate Ms. Jacobsens critique of their efforts or your fixation with them?

The security measures would have been a bit difficult, since I have no clue what they are,nor do you,apparently.

I'm very familiar with NWA security procedures as I participate in them daily.

How my posts could have helped a terrorist?

Since the real point of terrorism is to spread fear, and fear spread with minimal effort on their part is best, I'd say you are helping them with your fixation with this story and your continued, and by your own admission uninformed, speculation regarding NWA's security. Again I question your real motives.

Get real, fella.

I already am. You should try it for a change.

 

[Trip Confirmed]

The number of passengers who confirm Annie Jacobsen's story , and have talked with the authorities , is not 2 anymore.

Or 3, or 4, or 5, or 6, or 7.

It's now up to eight. Add the family members they were traveling with, it's higher.


For those not up on currents events, it's not blogs reporting this, it's major news sources. Documented as going forward to the authorities.

Keep your heads in the sand if you like.

This publicity is far from over. And Northwest WILL have to explain why they did nothing.


Seems others demanded action from the crew and got nothing too.

I expect there will be many more coming forward.


My only question from the very beginning was why the flight attendants didn't get forceful and insist on proper behavior.


Why they were totally incapable of even enforcing the "sit down" rule, much less any others.


My DOG knows sit means sit.

He also knows stay. I can tell him in a gentle voice and he obeys.Perhaps
because I'm not afraid of him?



I noticed the second topic under mine on the forums list was how much money NWA is losing.

How prophetic. :bleh:

 

[NWA/AMT]

I noticed the second topic under mine on the forums list was how much money NWA is losing.

How prophetic.

Ahhh... I think we can see your real motive now.

How pathetic. :down: