US ALPA/USAPA/West Thread for week of 3/22-29
- Thread starter Richard
- Start date
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From the national board:
As a 12-year member of ALPA, a 5-year First Officer with Alaska Airlines, a pilot with 2.5 years of active service at US Airways/Metrojet, a US Airways furloughee, and a volunteer supporter who walked the informational picket line with ALL US Airways pilots in Phoenix nearly a year ago, I’d like to offer a quick word of support for the professional pilots of the former America West Airlines. I am fully aware of the intricacies of your situation and frankly I am disgusted and appalled at the thuggish, anti-labor assault that is being forced upon you…an assault that is wearing the ridiculously thin veil of “Unionismâ€.
I understand that the USAPA organizers have come to the flawed conclusion that, “seniority lives in the contractâ€. We’ll, I have a different perspective on that. In my view, the primary driver affecting East seniority resides in the desert.
More precisely, in the desert surrounding the Mojave Airport in California.
After 9-11, Stephen Wolf and Rakesh Gangwal, the leading executives at the time, parked over 100 mainline aircraft in the Mojave Desert in the months that followed the attacks. Assuming, (as was customary at the time) the staffing requirement of six crews per aircraft. That equates to over 1200 pilot positions that simply evaporated into the hot thin air over Mojave…never to return.
Tragic? Certainly. Painful? Undoubtedly. I felt it personally. However, to make the misguided/malicious leap of logic that this lost East seniority can be blamed on, and regained from, the pilots of America West is confused (at best) and could more accurately be described as simple union busting (at worst).
I am highly sympathetic to the East pilots. I know many great people there and to this day count many of them among my good friends. Frankly, my time at AAA was the best I have ever experienced in this career. However, those 1200 jobs are gone forever. Speculating upon whose fault it was is pointless. I do know one thing with absolute certainty…ALPA didn’t give the order to park any jets and the America West pilots were completely blameless as well.
What’s the bottom line? Career Cancer is non-transferable. Any “union†founded on that singular principle and for that only purpose, has zero chance of success. Failure is simply unavoidable. From my perspective, I cannot believe that so many otherwise rational people are willing to be led by the nose down a path of certain failure and destruction. USAPA has no true plan, no true answers, no true infrastructure, no true financial process, no plan “Bâ€, no history, no set precedents, no history of past practice, no industry support, never been tested in any way, will most certainly be sued into oblivion (BK), and most importantly, absolutely no TRUE way to deliver on all of their mindless; empty promises that have been virtually guaranteed.
These promises have been pledged with total disregard for facts, existing law, Federal processes, common sense or any semblance of critical thought. Perhaps in more familiar terms, there is zero evidence of any form of Situational Awareness being displayed by USAPA. The “big picture†is much larger and far more perilous than is being let on by its organizers.
Blind rage resolves nothing. Blind rage is empty. Blind rage kills rational thought and it will be Blind rage that ultimately buries US Airways. Moreover, Blind rage is the only TRUE component fueling and supporting USAPA. Any type of real substance eludes them.
As ALPA pilots, I’m confident that we all have a stake in this slow moving crime wave called USAPA. Therefore, my total support; both moral and financial, is firmly behind AWA/ALPA in their fight against Tyranny. An internal Tyranny wrapped in the Predatory cloak of a Fake Union. Best of Luck, fight the good fight and withhold no effort to keep the lid on Pandora’s Box. I doubt anyone, East or West, is prepared to live with the multitude of Management Demons will most certainly emerge from it should USAPA impose it’s will. Of course by then, the damage will be self- inflicted and far too late for either side to ever recover.
Hopefully common sense prevails.
XXXX XXXXXX.
LAXFO
Alaska Airlines.
As a 12-year member of ALPA, a 5-year First Officer with Alaska Airlines, a pilot with 2.5 years of active service at US Airways/Metrojet, a US Airways furloughee, and a volunteer supporter who walked the informational picket line with ALL US Airways pilots in Phoenix nearly a year ago, I’d like to offer a quick word of support for the professional pilots of the former America West Airlines. I am fully aware of the intricacies of your situation and frankly I am disgusted and appalled at the thuggish, anti-labor assault that is being forced upon you…an assault that is wearing the ridiculously thin veil of “Unionismâ€.
I understand that the USAPA organizers have come to the flawed conclusion that, “seniority lives in the contractâ€. We’ll, I have a different perspective on that. In my view, the primary driver affecting East seniority resides in the desert.
More precisely, in the desert surrounding the Mojave Airport in California.
After 9-11, Stephen Wolf and Rakesh Gangwal, the leading executives at the time, parked over 100 mainline aircraft in the Mojave Desert in the months that followed the attacks. Assuming, (as was customary at the time) the staffing requirement of six crews per aircraft. That equates to over 1200 pilot positions that simply evaporated into the hot thin air over Mojave…never to return.
Tragic? Certainly. Painful? Undoubtedly. I felt it personally. However, to make the misguided/malicious leap of logic that this lost East seniority can be blamed on, and regained from, the pilots of America West is confused (at best) and could more accurately be described as simple union busting (at worst).
I am highly sympathetic to the East pilots. I know many great people there and to this day count many of them among my good friends. Frankly, my time at AAA was the best I have ever experienced in this career. However, those 1200 jobs are gone forever. Speculating upon whose fault it was is pointless. I do know one thing with absolute certainty…ALPA didn’t give the order to park any jets and the America West pilots were completely blameless as well.
What’s the bottom line? Career Cancer is non-transferable. Any “union†founded on that singular principle and for that only purpose, has zero chance of success. Failure is simply unavoidable. From my perspective, I cannot believe that so many otherwise rational people are willing to be led by the nose down a path of certain failure and destruction. USAPA has no true plan, no true answers, no true infrastructure, no true financial process, no plan “Bâ€, no history, no set precedents, no history of past practice, no industry support, never been tested in any way, will most certainly be sued into oblivion (BK), and most importantly, absolutely no TRUE way to deliver on all of their mindless; empty promises that have been virtually guaranteed.
These promises have been pledged with total disregard for facts, existing law, Federal processes, common sense or any semblance of critical thought. Perhaps in more familiar terms, there is zero evidence of any form of Situational Awareness being displayed by USAPA. The “big picture†is much larger and far more perilous than is being let on by its organizers.
Blind rage resolves nothing. Blind rage is empty. Blind rage kills rational thought and it will be Blind rage that ultimately buries US Airways. Moreover, Blind rage is the only TRUE component fueling and supporting USAPA. Any type of real substance eludes them.
As ALPA pilots, I’m confident that we all have a stake in this slow moving crime wave called USAPA. Therefore, my total support; both moral and financial, is firmly behind AWA/ALPA in their fight against Tyranny. An internal Tyranny wrapped in the Predatory cloak of a Fake Union. Best of Luck, fight the good fight and withhold no effort to keep the lid on Pandora’s Box. I doubt anyone, East or West, is prepared to live with the multitude of Management Demons will most certainly emerge from it should USAPA impose it’s will. Of course by then, the damage will be self- inflicted and far too late for either side to ever recover.
Hopefully common sense prevails.
XXXX XXXXXX.
LAXFO
Alaska Airlines.
Frank Bama
Member
- Oct 1, 2007
- 18
- 0
I sit here looking at my letter from the NMB and thinking. I have read many of the letters from both sides, mostly propaganda and half truths and I have come to a conclusion. I do not want to vote for either. I'm afraid this will be a Pyrrhic victory, whomever wins.
After watching some of the videos shown in the now closed thread, it seems that ALPA will stop at no end. Showing the USAPA logo in smoke to a group of professionals is truely looking down at those they are trying to reach. Typical ALPA, talking down to its membership. Some of the arrows and replays in the videos to make a point are just plain silly. Some of the pilots in the audience are a bunch of children.
This is enough to make me say enough of ALPA national, and vote them off the UAL property the next time there is an independent union drive.
DENVER,CO
This is enough to make me say enough of ALPA national, and vote them off the UAL property the next time there is an independent union drive.
DENVER,CO
Phoenix
Veteran
Some say ALPA=NIC... That is too benign to represent ALPA... I believe Nicolau was probably honestly trying to do his job and had no true ALPA spirit...
ALPA=Lance
Now that is true ALPA spirit.
Farewell.
ALPA=Lance
Now that is true ALPA spirit.
Farewell.
Tiger 1050
Veteran
- Aug 4, 2007
- 882
- 12
Think what you will of ALPA. But this battle has more to do with failure on the east's part concerning the arbitration award than with ALPA National. You see the east was never really able to summon the necessary unity to oust ALPA in the past. Even in light of serious setbacks. LOA 93 is one example. What I believe has transpired is simply this... The east believed in all their hearts that their position of DOH in the negotiations, mediation and subsequent arbitration was more than sufficient to satisfy their masses. Especially in light of their recent losses suffered during their two bankruptcies. So it is only logical to believe that there may have been, and in most respects still is, an air of petition concerning restitution for the crimes committed against this pilot group. The problem lies in the fact that the AWA pilots had nothing to do with their plight prior to this merger and any suggestion to the contrary is supremely ignorant. While the east seeks some form of restitution (and who would blame them) the west is left to defend what they believe is their fair share in this new endeavor. DOH, righteous in the east's mind, is nothing more than the east demanding some action to once again make them whole, or at least as whole as possible. When Nicolau made the award public and the east learned they would not receive the recompense they believed they were entitled to they reacted. USAPA is nothing more than this reaction fully realized. USAPA is not about representing all pilots on this property. USAPA is the means by which the east will try to extract payment for crimes committed by past managements. Their motto says it all. "Seniority Matters." I question just whose seniority they are talking about when they speak of lifetime fences etc. I question the idea that the process by which the award was determined is at fault as the east never previously rose to level of rhetoric we witness today. In fact the east participated in the merger policy change in the early 90's. Frankly, I find all this rather transparent. In the end USAPA will ultimately fail. In fact it can never truly be successful. I believe this because whether USAPA finds itself bankrupt due to litigation or the USAPA faithful find themselves outnumbered at some future date the end result is the same. In the end USAPA will fail. It will fail because as much as its constituents want us to believe it conducts itself more like a true union, or it is simply more democratic, it was never born out of a desire for real change. It was born out of conflict. It was born out of greed.
Tiger 1050
Veteran
- Aug 4, 2007
- 882
- 12
You're confusing embracing such a basic concept, DOH, which is imho absolutely vital to ANY actual unionism, with some supposed desire for "retribution". "Apples and oranges" doesn't begin to approach the absurdity of "logic" inherent in your assumpton. None out east that I've spoken with are expecting to ever be made "whole", given the total extinction of generous pensions, and having suffered far too many additional injustices at Alpa's hand to note here. None are blaming the AWA group for those injustices, nor envisioning the west folks to be some "answer" in any of this. Frankly; it's amazingly self-centered/"It's ALL about ME!!" for any out west to even begin to imagine that such is the case. It is NOT All about YOU...period. Should we ever cross that apparently impervious barrier in west thinking, we might find more common ground. You claim "USAPA is the means by which the east will try to extract payment for crimes committed by past managements." Words fail me. Do you actually see yourselves as some wondrously abundant "cookie jar" to delve into?..that could in ANY way "make things right" regarding Alpa? Don't be so utterly naeive, and kindly extend your perceptive horizons to include even the remote possibility that our group actually does believe differently, based upon entirely different experiences and personally observable data accumulation if you will. It seems that regardless of how many times, and in how many ways it's explained to you folks that the anti-Alpa sentiment's NOT some purely Nic issue...you just don't get it. Your own pilot group was earlier seeking to establish an in-house union. What possible reasons could any of you had for doubting the uttter magnificence of Alpa? How conveniently soon we forget it seems.
"DOH, righteous in the east's mind, ..." DOH's clearly not "righteous" in the west's mind, although it's properly used "in house" for your own pilot list, has been for many years, and all out there apparently thought it just, and fully reasonable...OK. It's clearly not a serviceable notion when it no longer suits your whims and personal ambitions....fine, "fair" enough I suppose, but that's hardly any proper basis for claiming any "Righteous Position" to the contrary nowadays.
I'm curious; Had you folks picked up ATA, would you have cheerfully, as proper "Fellow Pilots" and of course "Brothers and Sisters", agreed to DOH for them?...I rather think most certainly NOT, and we naturally then come to your closing:
"It was born out of greed."
With all due respects, welcome to labor unionism 101. This is THEE message everyone in ALPA is about to get....either we come up with a NATIONAL standard to value an employee, in relation to his/her peers, that makes rational, logical, sense among an educated (about unionism) people, or this will continue to happen.
USAPA failed to TWICE get +3,200 cards, NO? YES!
USAPA failed to get a representational election, NO, YES!
USAPA failed to get all the services necessary PLUS some to BETTER ALPA's services, NO? YES!
And NOW USAPA has bad leadership and will FAIL to be a TRUE union, NO!
If YOU CHOOSE TO GO "UNREPRESENTED" and try to destroy USAPA, you will only do ONE person a diservice...YOURSELF!
We will NOT vote for anything with Nicolau in it....IT IS DEMOCRACY and whether YOU, and hear me well, YOU, MEANING ALL UNION PILOTS, fail to understand that if it WON'T PASS THE VOTE....that is DEMOCRACY and the MEC'S and ALPA Nationals FAILURE TO UNDERSTAND THIS PRINCIPLE IS WHAT GOT THEM INTO THIS PICKLE.
This is why ALPA NATIONAL DOES NOT LIKE MEMBERSHIP RATIFICATION!
More "sour grapes" from the cheap seats as far as this forum is concerned.....
ALPA motto "safety first". You CAN'T HAVE ANYTHING FIRST, INCLUDING SAFETY, IF THE OTHER UNION GROUPS ARE FAVORED OVER YOUR OWN....AND I DON'T MEAN WITH FINANCIAL SUPPORT.
PATTERN BARGAINING IS A LOSING PROPOSITION......HOW ABOUT A NATIONAL SOS??
THAT'S UNION GREED....remember, when ONE PILOT HAS A PROBLEM, WE ALL HAVE A PROBLEM? OR HOW ABOUT "WE'RE TAKING IT BACK!" Right....off the BACKS OF THE OLDER WORKERS, just like BRANIFF, EASTERN, PAN AM and others.
Let me tell you I have been an ALPA member for 23 years and was a STAUNCH ALPA supporter UNTIL National FAILED to protect us, US Airways pilots, ALWAYS THE TIP OF THE SPEAR, when our pension was STRIPPED from us....a precursor of things to come for our MAJOR ALPA carriers. Now look....
Do ALL OF US A FAVOR, and this goes for ALL PILOTS ON THIS FORUM, REREAD THESE HISTORIES THOUROUGHLY and come back here again:
Flying the Line Volume 1
Flying the Line Volume 2
The History of the APA
http://www.alliedpilots.org/Public/AboutAP...und/history.asp
http://www.alliedpilots.org/Public/Publica.../2003_fallp.pdf
I close with this: Interview with Captain Richard "J.R." Lyons, founding father of APA:
The APA History is very revealing...it is information you'll NOT get from ALPA.
I watched the videos posted on YouTube. If the actions of most of the audience are representative of the West pilot group then I hope the USAPA wins the election. These people are supposed to be articulate, professional, intelligent people and I thought I was watching a high school gathering in an auditorium. The heckling and immature actions were disgusting, surely not indicative of the top tier. DOH prevailed on both properties before the merger but to the advantage of AWA pilots was circumvented. As the Change Of Control arbitration established there was no change of control this was a merge not a buy and the seniority rosters should be merged not slotted. The rules were changed midstream. The west says they didn't ask for the merge and neither did the east. We have all fallen prey to this manipulating management team and they have been successful in pitting east against west in most work groups. Our only hope is that another merger takes place and this management team is flushed down the toilet where they belong. The sad thing is they will become much richer in the process. It is time our companies are run buy CEOs and not corporate raiders.
So how will the seniority list be done next merger, by doh? you are a real einstein, why don't you use your brain before you spew trash out of your mouth.
More "wisdom" from the peanut gallery.
Professional pilot at his best....just like in the AWA video.
Thanks for the insight.
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