US Pilot Labor Thread

[electricjet98]

There are a lot of smart people here, well-informed from both East and West that I respect when personal attacks are not involved. As I've said before in my few posts- We are failing to recognize the enemy. The enemy is management, the economy, other carriers, etc. Let's fight them instead of our continuing dividing and conquering among ourselves.

Okay, I've vented. I'll shut up now!!!

Basically, I would agree. But I also believe that the words of compromise need to start from those that have hijacked the bus.

 

[machtuck]

Basically, I would agree. But I also believe that the words of compromise need to start from those that have hijacked the bus.

Where was that sentiment at the River...?

Here's the rub, friend, there have been multitudes of oportunities for compromise over the last three years....

I think we've all seen where that went at the River when ALPA and Freund were on their knees trying to hold this deal together...

(actually, I guess Freund walked out...)

So, tell us, why should the East with a new bona-fide and legal union...acquiesce to your whims?

I can see why people get so pissed over this....your side was warned at the River...by ALPA National and YOUR lawyer....

but, NO....

and now, it should all go away, and we should start over?

this is what pisses me off about this whole deal.

Your side has (to date ) been unwilling to cut a deal..but now, the West is expecting the East to pony up one...

after they did at the river....

and crickets chirped.

 

[Leonidas]

Where was that sentiment at the River...?

Here's the rub, friend, there have been multitudes of oportunities for compromise over the last three years....

I think we've all seen where that went at the River when ALPA and Freund were on their knees trying to hold this deal together...

(actually, I guess Freund walked out...)

So, tell us, why should the East with a new bona-fide and legal union...acquiesce to your whims?

I can see why people get so pissed over this....your side was warned at the River...by ALPA National and YOUR lawyer....

but, NO....

and now, it should all go away, and we should start over?

this is what pisses me off about this whole deal.

Your side has (to date ) been unwilling to cut a deal..but now, the West is expecting the East to pony up one...

after they did at the river....

and crickets chirped.

A deal? Where do you get that the west wants a deal? get a clue the west is only interested in having you and the company abide by the contract you made.

 

[Pi brat]

Check all of your merger committee updates beginning in October 2005. This has nothing to do with proposed lists and everything to do with negotiating prior to arbitration. The only lists passed back then were the certified lists of each side as required by the alpa merger process.

As a former member of the west merger committee I urge you to read everything you can including the transcripts of the arbitration. I refuse to spoon feed it to you as it is readily available on line. Once you have actually read some material of fact you will, indeed, see how wrong you are.

You said that the east stance was DOH, period. The list proposed to Nic was LOS, was it not? At any given time the east stance could have been any method, but what was given to NIC?

 

[electricjet98]

Well, my friend, you're making a few really large assumptions going forward, in my opinion.
Do you recall that ALPA sat on the NIC for almost a year?...ever wonder why? Even ALPA knew that NIC would never fly...thats one of the reasons Wye River was put together....to settle this WITHIN ALPA before it might come unwound...and come unwound it did.

I think we're pretty much in agreement, machtuck. I recall it well and none of us wondered for one minute "why the delay". ALPA knew that this wouldn't go well with the east; be it the previous setbacks suffered by the east, animosity towards ALPA, the entitlement attitude or a host of other reasons. EVERYONE was well aware that the east would be upset. But does one party's level of being upset, make the decision any less just? ALPA would have loved the west folding like a cheap suit. Unfortunately, the cost of compromise would have been beared fully by the west. The east didn't come to negotiate, they came to extort. Freund was right about one thing; the arbitration award was negotiable while it was kept within the ALPA "family" and prior to presentation and acceptance by the company.

When Freund warned of the potential losses if the West guys didn't cut a deal WITH ALPA at the River, (and they didn't) ALPA warned what might happen if the West didn't lighten up off of the hard ground...it might all be lost by way of DECERT....( of course, ALPA had selfish reasons for not wanting that...) the farm got bet.

You know the rest.

Not much disagreement here, either. One thing that you may not have considered is the two-edged sword that Freund was for us. While he did great for us during the merger process (and I would hope we would consider retaining him for any future mergers), you also have to keep in perspective what his motivations are...and who his major employer is (ALPA Nat'l). The possibility of Nat'l whispering in his ear as to what his recommendations are to the west, was more than just idle thoughts.

As far as USAPA goes, I didn't get to vote, but they have their own C&BL's...and they won a legal NMB election...they are the legal agent for the pilots of USAirways WEST AND EAST..and while some 1500+ west guys are trying to derail it, they will negotiate OUR new contract with the company.


.02

Legal agent, but a long way from being a unifying agent. And we all know that unification of spirit and will, to at least some positive level will be required for this group to make any progress.

So you can see that I basically agree with your earlier post...so where are the large assumptions?

Not having been there myself, I can only speculate. Having already received an arbitration award that the west pilots considered to be basically fair, it would have been a huge "give-away" to agree to LOS w/fences or any other possible commitment, in exchange for the east's promise that our "deal" wouldn't be revisted in the event that a new joint contract wasn't accepted. We had already seen the east's sense of honor and integrity, and by making that compromise it would have been demonstrated that "final & binding" was negotiable.

Have a great Sunday

Happy hour just got done!

 

[Eastisleast]

Mach.............here is the real rub friend. Prior to going to arbitration the east would show up and do your DOH dance with no compromise. You guys had all the time in the world to negotiate something but you just wouldn't budge. So the next step of the game is binding arb that both sides agreed on and we all know the rest of that miserable story. Why should we of had to do anything at the river? The los and fences should have been put in long before Nic ever happened I can almost gaurantee it would have worked. So you guys can drop this Wye river BS, los and fences didn't sound good to you before why now?

 

[machtuck]

A deal? Where do you get that the west wants a deal? get a clue the west is only interested in having you and the company abide by the contract you made.

Funny thing, "boss-man"...about any "deal"...the policing agent over and within which any "deal' was made is gone....

now, you will have to srtart writing the speech you're gonna give to your poor west guys that will lose on the 'real deal" with the new and legal union you helped into place.

You warned them....leonidas...'warriors"....(maybe to death)...so I guess you're clear..

But here's your deal: you gambled valiantly.....you lost ALPA...and therefore, the agent who was charged with seeing NIC into a new CBA (which makes it concrete),,,

well,

(you're in some pretty $%*& now)

 

[machtuck]

Mach.............here is the real rub friend. Prior to going to arbitration the east would show up and do your DOH dance with no compromise. You guys had all the time in the world to negotiate something but you just wouldn't budge. So the next step of the game is binding arb that both sides agreed on and we all know the rest of that miserable story. Why should we of had to do anything at the river? The los and fences should have been put in long before Nic ever happened I can almost gaurantee it would have worked. So you guys can drop this Wye river BS, los and fences didn't sound good to you before why now?

My brother...I was off in FUR-land...so I can't comment about when I was gone.

All I know is what I read...and I'm told LOS was offered by East at the River...(Freund was there)
and a few of your guys said NO...

I can't help what has happened since...I wasn't here.

I sincerely hope we can get something worked out so we can all finish up a %&(&&) career.

 

[machtuck]

A deal? Where do you get that the west wants a deal? get a clue the west is only interested in having you and the company abide by the contract you made.

Good luck with that, Paco.

I signed a deal to rent an apartment from "Cool Breeze" last month...but, he died last month, and I don't know where our 'deal" is....

I've called his mom to try to enforce the deal...


think I'll win a lease?

 

[electricjet98]

Your position was adamant about having immediate access to all east assets in every way possible, and was based upon WHAT, even remotely possible notions of fairness at ANY level?

Many of us actually were advocating for some type of fence. I liked the idea of being able to trade domiciles and sharing growth on a percentage basis. You can see where that got me!

What did any of you seriously imagine in terms of how all of this would actually play out?

Ahhhh...that pilots on the east would honor their commitments?

 

[machtuck]

Many of us actually were advocating for some type of fence. I liked the idea of being able to trade domiciles and sharing growth on a percentage basis. You can see where that got me!




Ahhhh...that pilots on the east would honor their commitments?

Maybe so...

what I personally heard on a crew news is ...


" ...so now you want to fence us all off over here....? "


that sounds like a guy who wants to travel to me....

For the record...we should be able to bid around....in my opinion.

 

[ALPO NO MO]

Anyone hear anything about letters going out tomorrow?

 

[traderjake]

Anyone hear anything about letters going out tomorrow?

I'm shaking in my boots.

 

[Leonidas]

Good luck with that, Paco.

I signed a deal to rent an apartment from "Cool Breeze" last month...but, he died last month, and I don't know where our 'deal" is....

I've called his mom to try to enforce the deal...


think I'll win a lease?

This ain't over cowboy, we haven't had our day in court, and as I understand it management has not said they would accept a new list, you and your east pals have only won the election, but haven't delivered on a single promise, let me know when you get a contract and a new list.

 

[Ralph]

Thread closed. New thread here.