US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

No, because Management has rebuffed every attempt USAPA has made to advance a DOH list. The west pilots have no control over Management actions and Management has steadfastly opposed USAPA's attempts to violate the TA. Even if Addington had never occured, there is no indication that Management would have or ever will accept DOH no matter how USAPA tries to repackage it's attempted illegal actions. So the converse, as you suggest, cannot be stated as the reason for the lost income for every pilot at US Airways. USAPA alone bears the blame for failed contract negotaitions and the harm suffered by all pilots to this point with no end in sight.

Your opinion of course, but I disagree. What evidence do you have that management has opposed DOH at every turn? In the last crew news in CLT Parker said he didn't care what kind of list we used. They have said they are not sure of the law and don't want to be sued. Had Addington never happened we might now be running a DFR1 that had a chance. Addington including the company probably helped the DA come about.

Why can't the west admit that right or wrong the will do WHATEVER it takes to WIN?

 

[CallawayGolf]

Your opinion of course, but I disagree. What evidence do you have that management has opposed DOH at every turn? In the last crew news in CLT Parker said he didn't care what kind of list we used. They have said they are not sure of the law and don't want to be sued. Had Addington never happened we might now be running a DFR1 that had a chance. Addington including the company probably helped the DC come about.

Why can't the west admit that right or wrong the will do WHATEVER it takes to WIN?

What did Management tell the courts in DFR I about NIC vs. USAPA's proposals that permitted their dismissal from the proceedings?

What did Management tell the courts in its own Declaratory Judgment filings regarding NIC vs USAPA’s proposals?

Would you consider these well-published records of the court to be evidence or are those not to your liking? Of course Doug doesn’t care what the seniority list is so long as it complies with the Transition Agreement and Management’s acceptance of the same doesn’t open them up to a potentially avoidable legal action. Unless Silver definitively says otherwise, there is only one seniority list in the known universe that meets those criteria.

 

[luvn737s]

First, that's absolutely wrong. The company is obliged to release your contact information to the legally recognized bargaining agent.

Incorrect. The only reason that the union needs any info on a particular pilot (non-member) is for section 29 dismissal and that can be done by payroll number alone. If a pilot chooses to have the union perform some representational duty to which they are obligated, then they must provide whatever information the union requires in order to carry out that duty.

Sorry, the dossier is closed USAPA.

 

[LSS]

Serious question: What is it exactly you think the courts will be deciding?

AT this moment in time... whether or not the company and USAPA are free to bargain on all sections of a CBA... do you not understand what is going on????

 

[luvn737s]

Serious question: What is it exactly you think the courts will be deciding?

The Bear is back out of hibernation! Welcome back!

 

[Pi brat]

What did Management tell the courts in DFR I about NIC vs. USAPA's proposals that permitted their dismissal from the proceedings?

What did Management tell the courts in its own Declaratory Judgment filings regarding NIC vs USAPA’s proposals?

Would you consider these well-published records of the court to be evidence or are those not to your liking? Of course Doug doesn’t care what the seniority list is so long as it complies with the Transition Agreement and Management’s acceptance of the same doesn’t open them up to a potentially avoidable legal action. Unless Silver definitively says otherwise, there is only one seniority list in the known universe that meets those criteria.

It's been a while, I would have to look them up. USAPA's position is that their list does comply with the TA and the company has said they don't know, that's why they filed the the DA. Do they think they know they have to use the Nic and are just going through all this to delay a contract? Could be, I wouldn't put it past them, but absent evidence of that I have to go with they aren't sure.

This could have been over a long time ago if Doug had said "The TA produced the Nic and I'm bound to implement it". He hasn't.

 

[luvn737s]

There is some serious stuff coming down with regard to Leonidas getting this info. From what I have heard, this is going up pretty high in the FAA./TSA There is NO way this ever should have happened, and some people are going to get seriously hammered.

But the real question is, will there be another assessment (nee "Slush Fund Deposit") to fund some so-called investigation into all of this. Has Seham offered the services of his kids to look into this?

 

[Captain Underpants]

No, because Management has rebuffed every attempt USAPA has made to advance a DOH list. The west pilots have no control over Management actions and Management has steadfastly opposed USAPA's attempts to violate the TA. Even if Addington had never occured, there is no indication that Management would have or ever will accept DOH no matter how USAPA tries to repackage it's attempted illegal actions.

Golf,

Management is mandated by law to reach an agreement with USAPA.

Regarding seniority management only has two choices.....They can either accept USAPA's integrated DOH list with C&R's or maintain the status quo of separate operations. It really doesn't make much difference which one they choose.

underpants

 

[Pi brat]

Oh one last thing about the AOL mailing,I don't care that I got it and I will try to read what they say despite my bias.

As far as how our wives feel.........I hope mine never unleashes on you guys!

 

[CallawayGolf]

It's been a while, I would have to look them up. USAPA's position is that their list does comply with the TA and the company has said they don't know, that's why they filed the the DA. Do they think they know they have to use the Nic and are just going through all this to delay a contract? Could be, I wouldn't put it past them, but absent evidence of that I have to go with they aren't sure.

This could have been over a long time ago if Doug had said "The TA produced the Nic and I'm bound to implement it". He hasn't.

Management has repeatedly said that they expected the seniority dispute to be resolved by Wake and the 9th. Since the 9th turned a blind eye to providing any form of dispute resolution, Management felt compelled to file the DJ since USAPA continues to try and force a change away from the NIC. Doug & Scott have both said, to my recollection anyway, that the courts would ultimately decide if its NIC or USAPA’s seniority list that would ultimately prevail. Until then they will not negotiate a non-NIC alternative. The caveat there is that we (Management, East, West) all know that this would have been resolved in about 15 seconds had USAPA accepted the NIC.

Perhaps Doug could have said that, but he’s intelligent and has enough business acumen to know that this whole situation is forging new legal pathways that have never really been trodden on before. There is simply no case like it in the history of labor law and Management is not going to foolishly predict that either NIC or DOH will be the system that survives all of the legal challenges. So, Management is doing the only thing any prudent and reasonable Management team would do – maintain the NIC as the accepted list until a final and definitive statement from the courts tells them otherwise. Therefore, this whole mess continues to lie at the feet of the despotic USAPA leadership who could resolve everything in the blink of an eye by saying “we accept the NIC.”

 

[CallawayGolf]

Golf,

Management is mandated by law to reach an agreement with USAPA.

Regarding seniority management only has two choices.....They can either accept USAPA's integrated DOH list with C&R's or maintain the status quo of separate operations. It really doesn't make much difference which one they choose.

underpants

Well Management did negotiate with the pilot’s bargaining agent and have already accepted a list that met the requirements of the multi-party Transition Agreement. Now the pilot’s have a new bargaining agent which wants to renege on agreements already accepted and Management is under no obligation to renegotiate for that which has already been accepted, especially when doing so may put them into serious legal peril.

BTW – USAPA is also mandated by law to reach an agreement with Management. When the courts and/or the NMB tells USAPA that NIC is the seniority list, what will USAPA do? The best guaranteed answer is that USAPA will continue to line the pocket (shoes, hat, backpack, off shore bank accounts) of $eham as they wiggle their way into obscurity.

 

[cleardirect]

Rather funny how one considers sensitive information culled from an airlines' flight crew data, which also directly relates to which flights they operate, to certain cities and countries at specific times can be construed to be casual information. Fortunately, the FAA and especially TSA considers this to be a lot more serious than you do on an airline labor forum. Rather interesting how Leonidas was stupid enough to enlist a company source, which I am sure is being investigated at this time, and use that sensitive information totally unedited. From what is available, the fact certain nicknames, and other clues made it rather easy to determine the source. Leonidas will be turning its' attention inward very shortly when the spotlight is turned directly in its' direction. Enjoy the show! Remember, keep the donations coming! Others will be needing certain legal protection shortly.........Did Jacobs get involved with this one too?

You guys really do crack me up. You are so sure where that data came from right. You guys go run to whatever agency you think is going to listen to hysterical ranting’s of people that file false charges against their own members. You do know that the RICO charges were dismissed right. Want to try that again?

How do you know that a company source was involved? Here is a concept that you guys may not be familiar with got any evidence? An update from the spin meister is not evidence.

Interesting how you guys go screaming into the night when something shows up on your door step and it must be a federal crime but when usapa prior to becoming the CBA did the exact same thing you have no problem with that. Double standard or situational ethics? You guys go and do whatever you need to make yourselves feel better. Big talk big threats. No crime. USAPA all bark, no bite, no teeth.

Another $300,000 on a wild goose, chase go for it.

 

[luvthe9]

But the real question is, will there be another assessment (nee "Slush Fund Deposit") to fund some so-called investigation into all of this. Has Seham offered the services of his kids to look into this?

No need here. TSA will gladly do the discovery on this one gratis!

 

[luvthe9]

You guys really do crack me up. You are so sure where that data came from right. You guys go run to whatever agency you think is going to listen to hysterical ranting’s of people that file false charges against their own members. You do know that the RICO charges were dismissed right. Want to try that again?

How do you know that a company source was involved? Here is a concept that you guys may not be familiar with got any evidence? An update from the spin meister is not evidence.

Interesting how you guys go screaming into the night when something shows up on your door step and it must be a federal crime but when usapa prior to becoming the CBA did the exact same thing you have no problem with that. Double standard or situational ethics? You guys go and do whatever you need to make yourselves feel better. Big talk big threats. No crime. USAPA all bark, no bite, no teeth.

Another $300,000 on a wild goose, chase go for it.

From what I have heard, they are more than happy to look into it. Right up their alley so to speak!

 

[cleardirect]

From what I have heard, they are more than happy to look into it. Right up their alley so to speak!

You sure do "hear" alot. Maybe they can turn their new fancy scanners on for a true "inside" look into usapa.