What is the rush?

[LukeAisleWalker]

NMB has already ruled that a SOC is not necessary to all an election.

I don't think it's about calling the election. I think it's more about flying together. Can we fly together BEFORE the SOC? I believe the answer is no.

AFA is asking what the rush is seeing as we probably won't be flying together for a year or more.
I can see where they are coming from with this, but they (AFA) also need to understand that the FA group, for the most part, is anxious, not only about their future seniority but about whether there will be a union or not. AFA needs to understand ,and I hope this analogy makes sesne, that if someone is told that there will be a vote, say, on which member of their family will have to parachute out of a plane for the first time next year, even though it's not happening for a year, the members of that family still want to know (sooner rather than later) which of them it's going to be. In other words, the anxiety and/or anticipation level counts for something for the 'family members' . Those who are afraid of heights will experience anxiety, while those who view parachuting as an exciting adventure are filled with anticipation. Now, the distinction is that anticpation can usually be more easily stifled than anxiety. So those looking forward to the jump can afford to be a little more lacksadasial about who is going to jump and what day whereas the anxious group would most likely want a decision yesterday.
Make sense or should I give up on future analogies?

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Very well said.

Wow,thanks, dapoes. This is, I believe, the first compliment you've ever given me.
:blush:

 

[dapoes]

Wow,thanks, dapoes. This is, I believe, the first compliment you've ever given me.
:blush:

Im not all that bad really, and what you said made a lot of sense.

 

[Dignity]

Im not all that bad really, and what you said made a lot of sense.

Luke's comments was right on the mark, and Dapoes..
I am very proud of you today.

no one is asking you to change your mind, everyone is entitled to their opinion..just spend a little more time explaining your reasons..so others have a general idea what your view may be..and why others should consider trying things another way.

I am truly interested in all sides, views and opinions on this issue.

 

[dapoes]

I don't think it's about calling the election. I think it's more about flying together. Can we fly together BEFORE the SOC? I believe the answer is no.

AFA is asking what the rush is seeing as we probably won't be flying together for a year or more.
I can see where they are coming from with this, but they (AFA) also need to understand that the FA group, for the most part, is anxious, not only about their future seniority but about whether there will be a union or not. AFA needs to understand ,and I hope this analogy makes sesne, that if someone is told that there will be a vote, say, on which member of their family will have to parachute out of a plane for the first time next year, even though it's not happening for a year, the members of that family still want to know (sooner rather than later) which of them it's going to be. In other words, the anxiety and/or anticipation level counts for something for the 'family members' . Those who are afraid of heights will experience anxiety, while those who view parachuting as an exciting adventure are filled with anticipation. Now, the distinction is that anticpation can usually be more easily stifled than anxiety. So those looking forward to the jump can afford to be a little more lacksadasial about who is going to jump and what day whereas the anxious group would most likely want a decision yesterday.
Make sense or should I give up on future analogies?

Umm not sure about the anology, maybe is it something like a contract would be a nightmare before everyone is fully integrated, trained etc? Some contract terms would apply to some but not to others as a result? Or is it that whole NMB thingy?

 

[dapoes]

Luke's comments was right on the mark, and Dapoes..
I am very proud of you today.

no one is asking you to change your mind, everyone is entitled to their opinion..just spend a little more time explaining your reasons..so others have a general idea what your view may be..and why others should consider trying things another way.

I am truly interested in all sides, views and opinions on this issue.

Haha, thanks, Luke was being more objective...not so much rhetoric that we love oh so much to throw around here at times.

 

[Dignity]

I don't think it's about calling the election. I think it's more about flying together. Can we fly together BEFORE the SOC? I believe the answer is no.

I wonder though, if the contract stays active after an election...if the fences will go up that protect the flying at our current bases until an actual combined contract for both groups are in place.
Lets say they wait until the SOC..and the election is successful, I still think at that time both groups will not be able to bid each other aircraft because of the fences?

 

[Dignity]

Haha, thanks, Luke was being more objective...not so much rhetoric that we love oh so much to throw around here at times.

I think that is more you, because I would never...e-v-e-r.. THINK of doing such a thing...oh no..never..

hehe

 

[Kev3188]

The DL management in my city has been down to ATL for meetings and came back with all kinds of great info for us. Some were told that we will be merging ops in July. Some were told that no date was set for the merge. The one thing that is consistent with the local management is his persistence with pushing a union vote right now. Whats the rush?

The better question is why is DL management so eager to put each of the unions in an untenable position?

Also, JMO, but I think it drives them batty that they have no say on when an election is called.

I would guess that they want the vote before more layoffs are announced.

I believe that laid-off employees would be eligible to vote. A laid-off employee is much more likely to vote for a union.

You bet they are... Unfortunately, they're also harder to track down/keep in the loop...

Correct, and Delta management wants it now with a management friendly NMB still in place instead of a fair NMB in place. They can't run their "Give a rip don't click" campaign with a fair NMB.

Quite right. With Van de Water at the helm, the chance for a fair election is slim at best. Even those ardently opposed to representation should at least be able to agree that a fair election is the right thing to do.

Is it frustrating? Yup. Do almost all of us want to vote, like, yesterday? Of course. However, with so much at stake, it's critical to do it *right*, as opposed to fast.

Also, a poster on the Facebook site wrote that the Single Operating Certificate or SOC, may be delayed until mid 2010 (rather than early 2010). Has anyone else heard that?

An SOC is not required for an election. An NMB determination of a "single transportation system" is. Two entirely different animals.

They are delaying because they are worried. Worried they will lose. Look at Lynx and Ryan. Did AFA stall with them because of the "unfair NMB"???". No of course not. But with DAL...they are.

Apples and oranges. If nothing else, I would think that the logistics involved in DL/NW are huge comparatively.

Well maybe, but as of so far AFA has yet to provide an answer to the question..have they?

Yes. So has the IAM, for that matter. Where both need to improve is getting that out to the masses.

I do think the election is going to be close. It is really going to be up to the NW f/a's as we don't know their percentages for pro-contract vs. no contract. I think, for the most part, the DL 40% will vote for representation again. NW f/a's must come thru at a near 80% for representation in order for it to pass. NW has never been without a union, so their f/a's will be faced with that question and opportunity for the first time.

Same on the Ground Ops side. I think we need 95% or better from NW people to pass based on sheer numbers alone (DL ramp outnumbers NW by ~1.5 to 1, and the DL agents are ~2 to 1 over their NW counterparts.).

NMB has already ruled that a SOC is not necessary to all an election.

Correct. See above.

Umm not sure about the anology, maybe is it something like a contract would be a nightmare before everyone is fully integrated, trained etc? Some contract terms would apply to some but not to others as a result? Or is it that whole NMB thingy?

Why can't a joint contract be negotiated with future integration in mind? Is there something preventing that?

 

[dapoes]

Quite right. With Van de Water at the helm, the chance for a fair election is slim at best. Even those ardently opposed to representation should at least be able to agree that a fair election is the right thing to do.

:blink: Really? even tho AFA somehow felt the NMB was no cause for worry regarding Ryan and Lynx? But AFA is concerned with the NMB over DAL? How does that make any sense? If the excuse is NMB, then it should be as so. But somehow they choose to feel unaffected with the NMB with Ryan and Lynx elections.

 

[Kev3188]

:blink: Really?

Yes, really.

even tho AFA somehow felt the NMB was no cause for worry regarding Ryan and Lynx? But AFA is concerned with the NMB over DAL? How does that make any sense? If the excuse is NMB, then it should be as so. But somehow they choose to feel unaffected with the NMB with Ryan and Lynx elections.

I can't speak specifically about Lynx or Ryan Air, since all I know about them is that their numbers are *much* smaller than those at DL/NW.

What I do know is that Mrs. Van De Water's track record, coupled with her past relationship with both NW and Anderson should cause concern.

You didn't comment on my statement on all of us in the various groups wanting a fair election. Do you not agree with that? If not, why not?

 

[Dignity]

With Van de Water at the helm, the chance for a fair election is slim at best. Even those ardently opposed to representation should at least be able to agree that a fair election is the right thing to do.

Is it frustrating? Yup. Do almost all of us want to vote, like, yesterday? Of course. However, with so much at stake, it's critical to do it *right*, as opposed to fast.

Doing something that seems right will generally lead to a desirable results?..well..but then of course you have to take people into consideration and hope that everyone agrees with that or sees it that way...that is an issue, how does one convince someone else a later time is the right time or to do it right.. when they have already made up their minds its being delayed? some of these people are not familiar with the process at all, and even though I clearly see your point, they are the ones who are slowly being turned off ...one by one. some may feel they are just waiting for someone else to give the other side an advantage...even if that is not the case at all...it can go both ways..

some focus on van de water and need to focus on the people who actually make the decision either way..who will do the actual voting....or simply wont.

some Flight Attendants have already opted for representation just recently in their elections...and people are aware of this..

 

[dapoes]

Yes, really.




I can't speak specifically about Lynx or Ryan Air, since all I know about them is that their numbers are *much* smaller than those at DL/NW.

What I do know is that Mrs. Van De Water's track record, coupled with her past relationship with both NW and Anderson should cause concern.

You didn't comment on my statement on all of us in the various groups wanting a fair election. Do you not agree with that? If not, why not?

And yet AFA is still silent on why they have not called an election. No reasons, no explanation, nothing. Somehow I think if the votes turned out differently then AFA would be howling at the NMB like they did prior with DAL. Even tho the same rules have been in effect for decades under numerous other elections. Now they conventionally feel its a problem. :down:

Its just AFA bitterness because NMB didn't side in their petty petition with DAL. And now they know they (AFA) will be facing the strong wind of opposition again. Boohoo.

 

[southwind]

Dapoes,
that is just a personal opinion without any basis in fact what-so-ever!

Kind of like every other post on this forum !

 

[Kev3188]

Kind of like every other post on this forum !

Hey! My favorite popinjay is back!

What a substantive contribution to the discussion; thanks for sharing!