What is the rush?

[Dignity]

Kind of like every other post on this forum !

Southwind..lets review..

this was the comment..."They are delaying because they are worried. Worried they will lose"

that is clearly a personal opinion correct..but the point was simply that is the individual personal opinion not an entire organization's ideas based on facts.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Or is it that whole NMB thingy?

It's really the whole FAA thingy - it is they who approve the transition plan that ends up with everyone working from the same manuals and using the same procedures. Once that process is complete - both sides are trained and using common procedures/policies - the FAA grants a SOC.

The SOC has nothing to do with contracts, and receiving a SOC doesn't require that single contracts for each employee group (pilots, F/A's, etc) are complete. In theory, once a SOC is received nothing prevents combining the employee groups. As you said, however, combining the two sides of each employee group without a single contract that covers them would be something of a nightmare to administer. So in practice what happens after a SOC is issued is that groups merge as their contracts are finalized except in cases where neither side is represented or a combined contract is reached before the SOC is issued.

Jim

 

[dapoes]

It's really the whole FAA thingy - it is they who approve the transition plan that ends up with everyone working from the same manuals and using the same procedures. Once that process is complete - both sides are trained and using common procedures/policies - the FAA grants a SOC.

The SOC has nothing to do with contracts, and receiving a SOC doesn't require that single contracts for each employee group (pilots, F/A's, etc) are complete. In theory, once a SOC is received nothing prevents combining the employee groups. As you said, however, combining the two sides of each employee group without a single contract that covers them would be something of a nightmare to administer. So in practice what happens after a SOC is issued is that groups merge as their contracts are finalized except in cases where neither side is represented or a combined contract is reached before the SOC is issued.

Jim

Ahh I see. That makes sense.

 

[Kev3188]

So in practice what happens after a SOC is issued is that groups merge as their contracts are finalized

Finalized as in "term of CBA has come to an end?"

except in cases where neither side is represented or a combined contract is reached before the SOC is issued.

Jim

So in theory, you could negotiate a JC with future integration in mind, yes?

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

An SOC is not required for an election. An NMB determination of a "single transportation system" is. Two entirely different animals.

Absolutely, Kev. I understand that. I was merely pointing out AFA's stated position that there is no need to rush into an election; one of the reasons being that we will not be flying together for quite a while. If I remember correctly, that was in one of their DL/NW AFA mailers.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

I wonder though, if the contract stays active after an election...if the fences will go up that protect the flying at our current bases until an actual combined contract for both groups are in place.
Lets say they wait until the SOC..and the election is successful, I still think at that time both groups will not be able to bid each other aircraft because of the fences?

Yes, Dignity. I believe you are correct per Danny Campbell on this board back in the Spring.
If the AFA is elected, then from what I can remember Danny saying, we remain separate until a combined contract is negotiated and ultimately voted in.
Now, with that said...they are already switching the flying around. (i.e: NW747 on ATL-HNL). I'm just wondering about the aircraft. Delta said online that we will begin training on each other's a/c in the 3rd quarter 2009. If AFA is voted in, and we are all trained on one another's a/c, does this mean we can fly the combined routes and a/c but just not do it together?

 

[Dignity]

Yes, Dignity. I believe you are correct per Danny Campbell on this board back in the Spring.
If the AFA is elected, then from what I can remember Danny saying, we remain separate until a combined contract is negotiated and ultimately voted in.
Now, with that said...they are already switching the flying around. (i.e: NW747 on ATL-HNL). I'm just wondering about the aircraft. Delta said online that we will begin training on each other's a/c in the 3rd quarter 2009. If AFA is voted in, and we are all trained on one another's a/c, does this mean we can fly the combined routes and a/c but just not do it together?

if they actually wait to call an election until the SOC.. mid 2010.. and the election is successful for representation...both groups would still be separate correct? I think yes.. until there is an actual combined contract for both, regardless if someone is trained on the other pre-mergers aircraft satisfying the SOC...the fences would still limit each others ability to fly each other equipment...

they have to cross train both groups in order to obtain the SOC, so to me you may be qualified to fly on each others aircraft, but the fences would prevent each other from actually bidding and flying those specific pre-merger aircraft.

so in essence..the ATL satellite base would not go away...I believe it would remain in place until there is a combined contract..

its like in a way, I am qualified to fly several different types of aircraft, but that does not mean I actually will...maybe one..maybe two variations...yearly recurrent maintains the qualification..so actually a Flight Attendant could be simply qualified to fly another aircraft type but not necessary have the ability to actually bid it..due to the fence...

the fences will keep each other separate...so all NW bases would be fenced, including the satellite bases.. the purpose of the fences is to protect bases, aircraft and flying..until a tentative agreement is ratified covering both groups..?

I think this needs some clarification..

that is how I am understanding the situation, but stand corrected.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

if they actually wait to call an election until the SOC.. mid 2010.. and the election is successful for representation...both groups would still be separate correct? I think yes.. until there is an actual combined contract for both, regardless if someone is trained on the other pre-mergers aircraft satisfying the SOC...the fences would still limit each others ability to fly each other equipment...

they have to cross train both groups in order to obtain the SOC, so to me you may be qualified to fly on each others aircraft, but the fences would prevent each other from actually bidding and flying those specific pre-merger aircraft.

so in essence..the ATL satellite base would not go away...I believe it would remain in place until there is a combined contract..

its like in a way, I am qualified to fly several different types of aircraft, but that does not mean I actually will...maybe one..maybe two variations...yearly recurrent maintains the qualification..so actually a Flight Attendant could be simply qualified to fly another aircraft type but not necessary have the ability to actually bid it..due to the fence...

the fences will keep each other separate...so all NW bases would be fenced, including the satellite bases.. the purposes of the fences is to protect bases, aircraft and flying..

I think this needs some clarification..

Gotchya. That makes sense.

 

[jalbalpa]

AFA will not wait until there is a SOC in place. AFA wants a fair election and that won't happen until the Obama administration appoints someone new to the NMB. Once that happens, I can see AFA filing.

Also, no Delta f/a's will not be able to fly on NW aircraft in the meantime. The NW CBA states that NW f/a's on the NW seniority list will perform work on planes with NW pilots.

Again, AFA will NOT wait until the SOC is issued...thats probably more then 1 years from now.

Another rumor being spread by the anti-christ at Delta.

 

[dapoes]

AFA will not wait until there is a SOC in place. AFA wants a fair election and that won't happen until the Obama administration appoints someone new to the NMB. Once that happens, I can see AFA filing.

Also, no Delta f/a's will not be able to fly on NW aircraft in the meantime. The NW CBA states that NW f/a's on the NW seniority list will perform work on planes with NW pilots.

Again, AFA will NOT wait until the SOC is issued...thats probably more then 1 years from now.

Another rumor being spread by the anti-christ at Delta.

You still haven't answered my question, if the AFA is so stigmatized by the NMB, why did they call for an election recently with Ryan and Lynx??? NMB didn't seem to be an issue for them. Doesn't that make that "NMB" excuse look like a...crock?

 

[Dignity]

wants a fair election and that won't happen until the Obama administration appoints someone new to the NMB. Once that happens,

but that does not make sense to me, because Lynx and Ryan just had their elections and they were fair.. right? what would be different for those Flight Attendants because they are a smaller group?

their elections were fair??

 

[jalbalpa]

Dapoes, the chair of the NMB wasn't involved with Lynx or Ryan.

Read Van de Water worked under Richard Anderson as the Director of Government Affairs at Northwest, its a conflict of interest and with some of her pension on the line...you bet she will side with management.

I don't know why you keep asking quesitons you know the answer to.

 

[Dignity]

its a conflict of interest

oh yeah...that could be true..a very valid point.

 

[dapoes]

but that does not make sense to me, because Lynx and Ryan just had their elections and they were fair.. right? what would be different for those Flight Attendants because they are a smaller group?

their elections were fair??

Exactly my point, yet no one seems to give me a straight answer!

 

[Dignity]

Exactly my point, yet no one seems to give me a straight answer!

I am seeing different sides to this situation a little more clear, I did not think about the "conflict of interest" jalbalpa had mentioned in the post and the concern that may be... but these same people were in place during the last election that resulted in no representation??

but regardless..the two recent elections must have been deemed fair...and that is what
most people seem to be focusing on.. at this time..?