2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[ograc]

Cargo,
 
You will also discover that droves of members are NOT flocking to this board for Official Information. Especially, since the Informational Meeting Campaign was initiated. I think someone said this earlier-- if you remove the superfluous non-related chitter-chatter, and multiple identity posts, there are probably less than 6 actual Fleet Members here that frequent the board!
 
Now ask yourself...why would a certain poster, spend upwards of 17 hrs a day, seven days a week in here attempting to cast doubt on the Union’s integrity, strategy, and transparency... especially, with such a small audience? 

I wouldn't underestimate the influence this forum has on members' opinions. The last people to dismiss this forum as meaningless was the candidates of the Canale Team. It's impossible to say how many casually view without creating a member profile. It's impossible to guage how many members (who only view and follow) share opinions and speculation on this forum with fellow members. It may be more than you estimate and should not be dismissed. Why do you think certain posters spend upwards of 17 hours a day on here? IMO... it was a tool, effectively used, in the Canale uprising. 

 

[737823]

The IAM NEVER supported the merger.

Why not? You seem very enthusiastic about it. Will they net less in dues through the alliance?

Josh

 

[robbedagain]

no josh  neither 700 nor the iam  nor me for that matter supported the merger   the simple fact was  the filthy donkeys FAILED and continue to FAIL to negogiate with the IAM for a FAIR and EQUITABLE Sect 6 Contract   all the while AA makes more than we do to perform the same exact job   WHY?
 
BEC DP and AH and all the rest of the donkeys have a very serious EGO issue

 

[ograc]

no josh  neither 700 nor the iam  nor me for that matter supported the merger   the simple fact was  the filthy donkeys FAILED and continue to FAIL to negogiate with the IAM for a FAIR and EQUITABLE Sect 6 Contract   all the while AA makes more than we do to perform the same exact job   WHY?
 
BEC DP and AH and all the rest of the donkeys have a very serious EGO issue

That and they save a boat load of cash holding the IAM members down indefinately. I really think the original game plan with the company, concerning this merger, regarding Fleet and the MTC. group was the IAM would be forced into a representation vote with the TWU. I think they forecasted the IAM would lose representation and therefore be off their property going forward. This Association Agreement between the two unions was not in their devious plans.

 

[Tim Nelson]

That and they save a boat load of cash holding the IAM members down indefinately. I really think the original game plan with the company, concerning this merger, regarding Fleet and the MTC. group was the IAM would be forced into a representation vote with the TWU. I think they forecasted the IAM would lose representation and therefore be off their property going forward. This Association Agreement between the two unions was not in their devious plans.

That said, the IAM said that it will negotiate stand alone 'until' [IAM's written word, not mine] a single carrier is ruled.  700 is correct that a union can still negotiate stand alone after single carrier [Delaney did for a year after single carrier at United] but the trouble is that it appears the association agreement with the TWU puts a limit on stand alone talk duration, otherwise, why would the IAM say 'until'.  I can't speak for everyone, but no way in hell will I endorse a eboard vote to move things into joint talks without a stand alone ratification, and the membership would be fully informed.   Speaking of negotiations, looks like things are on ice again. Of note, as we get closer to September 2015, it gets cheaper for AH to give our group AMR wages.  Not that anyone wants to wait that long for a flippin pay raise but as long as there continues to be demands and ultimatums with numerous attachments, I doubt there will be any substantial movement. 
 
At any rate, once the single carrier is filed or resolved by July 9, the NMB will determine that it is a single carrier sometime around September, and that means the NMB will schedule a vote.  If the determination is in September, then the vote will be scheduled for late fall, with the association as our new union sometime around January, 2015. That may be why the IAM said it will pull the plug on stand alone talks when a single carrier is announced.

 

[700UW]

There is nothing in the agreement that states the IAM will stop Section 6 negotiations.
 
Read Paragraph 7.
 
The language is the same in all the Association Agreements:
 

 
In accordance with the Railway Labor Act, each existing collective bargaining agreement of the Individual Labor Partner (reached with American Airlines or US Airways) and/or the applicable “status quo” conditions will remain in effect.  The Association as Employee representative will endeavor to negotiate a single, combine Collective Bargaining Agreement with the goal of improving rates of pay, benefits and other terms and conditions of the Employee members of the Mechanic and Related Craft or Class at the Carrier.
 

 

[roabilly]

I wouldn't underestimate the influence this forum has on members' opinions. The last people to dismiss this forum as meaningless was the candidates of the Canale Team. It's impossible to say how many casually view without creating a member profile. It's impossible to guage how many members (who only view and follow) share opinions and speculation on this forum with fellow members. It may be more than you estimate and should not be dismissed. Why do you think certain posters spend upwards of 17 hours a day on here? IMO... it was a tool, effectively used, in the Canale uprising. 

It was in fact an effective tool, but a tool beneficial to whom?
 
Case in point, in the overthrow of Canale... the question is, did the overthrow change anything for US fleet? Was it worth it? 
 
Another question, if you were in this forum, at that time... how many posters were non-union, management, and/or pro-Company? (Answer: We will NEVER know!)
 
 It’s in the Company’s best interest to keep the Membership at odds with Leadership... it’s called Divide and Conquer!
 
We know this much for certain-- The same poster that spent upwards of 17 hrs per day leading that charge... is now doing the same thing to lead THIS charge!
 
You do the math...

 

[roabilly]

There is nothing in the agreement that states the IAM will stop Section 6 negotiations.
 
Read Paragraph 7.
 
The language is the same in all the Association Agreements:
 

In accordance with the Railway Labor Act, each existing collective bargaining agreement of the Individual Labor Partner (reached with American Airlines or US Airways) and/or the applicable “status quo” conditions will remain in effect.  The Association as Employee representative will endeavor to negotiate a single, combine Collective Bargaining Agreement with the goal of improving rates of pay, benefits and other terms and conditions of the Employee members of the Mechanic and Related Craft or Class at the Carrier.
 
endeavour (ɪnˈdɛvə) or endeavor
vb
1. to try (to do something)

n
2. an effort to do or attain something

[C14: endeveren, from en-1 + -deveren from dever duty, from Old French deveir; see devoirs]
 
In essence 700... you are correct, they will "endeavor" to start JCBA, talks AFTER reaching an agreement in Section six!

 

[Tim Nelson]

 
In accordance with the Railway Labor Act, each existing collective bargaining agreement of the Individual Labor Partner (reached with American Airlines or US Airways) and/or the applicable “status quo” conditions will remain in effect.  The Association as Employee representative will endeavor to negotiate a single, combine Collective Bargaining Agreement with the goal of improving rates of pay, benefits and other terms and conditions of the Employee members of the Mechanic and Related Craft or Class at the Carrier.
 
endeavour (ɪnˈdɛvə) or endeavor
vb
1. to try (to do something)

n
2. an effort to do or attain something

[C14: endeveren, from en-1 + -deveren from dever duty, from Old French deveir; see devoirs]
 
In essence 700... you are correct, they will "endeavor" to start JCBA, talks AFTER reaching an agreement in Section six!
 

You need a lesson in reading.  What 700 quoted confirms the association agreement.  It is talking exclusively about a joint contract [psst: combined].  The problem is that the association will be voted upon by 2014 and most likely start bargaining by January, 2015.  I support the association as I think all US AIRWAYS members should. But it's mission is very clearly to bargain for a joint contract.   The IAM even cleared this up with its Q & A by insisting that it would only negotiate stand alone 'until' the NMB rules on a single carrier, presumably September at the latest.  I'm not fighting you Roabilly, I want what you want and that is stand alone talks until there is a ratification.  But you need to read better and also need to understand that Team Delaney pulled the plug on the United stand alone talks as well and blamed the NMB.  We have to make sure that Team Delaney doesn't blame the NMB this time and toss up its hands.  The association agreement can be amended.  At any rate, looks like NYer is looking more and more right by saying that the NMB is going to ice things again.  Seems every two months the NMB ices talks even though Team Delaney says it will take us all out on strike as a release is immanent.

 

[700UW]

The Q&A is not a legal and binding document.
 
Everyone from the NC, to the DL to the GL has stated there will not be JCBA negotiations until AFTER Section 6 Agreements are ratified for PMUS.
 
You are grasping at straws and sound like a desperate man, who is drowning.

 

[700UW]

Q: What impact will the formation of an Alliance have on collective bargaining with the new merged carrier?
 
A: The most important reason for the formation of the Alliance between the IAM and TWU is the advantages it gives us in seeking to roll back the bankruptcy driven concessions both groups have endured and secure an industry leading contract at the world’s largest carrier. When the carriers merge, the Company will seek the synergies associated with having single collective bargaining agreements covering the AA and US Airways work groups. Working together we can choose the most favorable provisions from both agreements covering our common work groups and build on them in negotiations to make sure the membership is properly rewarded for the financial and productivity gains produced by a single operation. Of equal importance, both organizations can focus all of their efforts and resources on securing the best possible agreement for our members rather than wasting time and effort in lengthy and bitter representation fights that will create long term divisions and inevitably limit and delay improvements for both our memberships. The Alliance assures that the resources and work of both organizations will be focused where it should be– on improving the work lives of our members.

 
Q: Will the formation of the Association change my current contract?
 
A: No. Your contract will remain in full force and effect and will not be changed until 1) either union reaches a new agreement for their members only at the pre-merger carrier in which they currently represent employees, or 2) the Association negotiates a single agreement to cover employees of both pre-merger airline in a particular classification and it is ratified by the combined TWU-IAM memberships.
 

 

3. Q: Will the forming of the Association impact the current IAM-US Airways negotiations?
 
A: No. The IAM will continue bargaining with US Airways for its current members at the stand-alone carrier until the National Mediation Board determines US Airways and  American Airlines are operating as a single carrier. The IAM’s position is that US Airways must fulfill its bargaining responsibilities with the IAM before joint negotiations begin.
 

As Paul Harvey would say, "Here is the rest of the story".
 
Post the whole answer Timmie, not just pieces of it, the whole answer, not selective pieces.

 

[WeAAsles]

That and they save a boat load of cash holding the IAM members down indefinitely. I really think the original game plan with the company, concerning this merger, regarding Fleet and the MTC. group was the IAM would be forced into a representation vote with the TWU. I think they forecasted the IAM would lose representation and therefore be off their property going forward. This Association Agreement between the two unions was not in their devious plans.

Whoever the company has to bargain with moving forward now is irrelevant. The issue could very well be the mindset that the company negotiators have put themselves in? Whether it's still separate talks or not the company is no longer LCC (Low Cost Carrier) and improvements now are a must against their competitors.  They could easily improve your base rates now and include stop gaps much like the APFA has that guarantee a timeline that all talks for JCBA are concluded by a set date. If accepted that could also show a measure of good faith on the company's part that they want to end the animosity to move into the future working together?

The base rates are easy to solve but the bigger issue will be SCOPE. During JCBA talks both sides may need to come up with creative solutions that neither really like but would be acceptable to a good CBA and the business model as well. Dragging out talks really isn't good for both us and the company when it comes to meeting Wall Street expectations and getting on with the process of competing against our rivals which is in all of our interests.

First though the past has to be left there on both sides and we need to begin moving forward. We're not going to get back all that we lost in one shot but we can make vast gains and improvements over time.

 

[roabilly]

Mr. Nelson,
 
I’ll assure my reading, writing, and comprehension ability is more than adequate for this particular application. You are attempting to drive a square peg into a round hole, while hoping no one notices the inconsistencies...
 
Why are you not calling me moron as you have in the past? Did your team members rein you in a bit?

 

[700UW]

WeAA,
 
You should know Al Hemenway hates the IAM especially Mechanic and Related.
 
There is a long history of bad blood between him and the IAM.
 
He takes this all personal and doesnt realize its business, I have lived it first hand with him.

 

[WeAAsles]

It was in fact an effective tool, but a tool beneficial to whom?
 
Case in point, in the overthrow of Canale... the question is, did the overthrow change anything for US fleet? Was it worth it? 
 
Another question, if you were in this forum, at that time... how many posters were non-union, management, and/or pro-Company? (Answer: We will NEVER know!)
 
 It’s in the Company’s best interest to keep the Membership at odds with Leadership... it’s called Divide and Conquer!
 
We know this much for certain-- The same poster that spent upwards of 17 hrs per day leading that charge... is now doing the same thing to lead THIS charge!
 
You do the math...

The average member doesn't care even a tiny bit about the Politics that goes on within the Unions. What they care about is a good stable CAREER that has improvements and can give them security to be able to live and retire with some measure of comfort and dignity. They do understand though that the politics get in the way of that and it's that reason why voter turnout is so low. They are sick of it and all it really does is get in the way of what they really need and want.

Even someone like myself who is involved have to admit that's it's sometimes a major distraction and annoyance.