2014 Pilot Discussion

[traderjake]

Geez, the west even admits it wasn't right.

 
Sure they do, and APA wants DOH with your "nice protections".

 

[EastUS1]

Nicolau got it all wrong.

 
That's a mighty tall claim, .......

 
Hardly. Given that any list needed to be mutually acceptable to both sides, per the dual ratification contained in the then TA, and in the light of 7 years history: How could any creature with even half a brain now claim that his efforts were at all productive, or provided anything other than a gross impediment to merging the two work groups? Anywhere outside of Fantasyland; Nic's work was undeniably an epic failure.

 

[Phoenix]

Nicolau got it all wrong.
 
Hardly. Given that any list needed to be mutually acceptable to both sides, per the dual ratification contained in the then TA, and in the light of 7 years history: How could any creature with even half a brain now claim that his efforts were at all productive, or provided anything other than a gross impediment to merging the two work groups? Anywhere outside of Fantasyland; Nic's work was undeniably an epic failure.

 
 
"We really are conflicted about the injustice of the Nic award, but integrity, righteousness, and purity must prevail, or the very fabric of civilization itself will tear and the foundations or society will crumble.  Therefore, what part of binding don't you understand, youse east hole scabs.  P.S.  We don't own TVs, and buy a tie already."

 

[end_of_alpa]

Nicolau got it all wrong.
 
Hardly. Given that any list needed to be mutually acceptable to both sides, per the dual ratification contained in the then TA, and in the light of 7 years history: How could any creature with even half a brain now claim that his efforts were at all productive, or provided anything other than a gross impediment to merging the two work groups? Anywhere outside of Fantasyland; Nic's work was undeniably an epic failure.

"Seniority Integration Agreement
 
Arbitrator Eischen issued the IMSL on February 19, 2011, before the Board’s single system determination. Eischen noted that if the Board were to find Frontier separate from the Republic system, “the integration methodology of the Award will be applied with the Frontier pilots excluded.” Further, the Award noted that its application may change if “facts and circumstances have materially changed.”
 
While the 2011 IMSL covers all Pilots at Frontier and the RAH carriers, no collectively-bargained implementing agreement has even been concluded.
 

Jacalyn Peters, Senior Director of Human Resources and Labor Relations for Frontier, stated that since the IBT’s certification, Frontier has dealt with the IBT on a number of matters including contractual grievances, disciplinary investigations, and to enforce union dues. However, the IBT has not sought to enter into any Letters of Agreement or otherwise modify the existing Pilot CBA language. Further, neither the IBT nor Republic has requested negotiations over a joint CBA governing Pilots of the single transportation system determined by the NMB in 2011.
 
Accordingly, the Pilots at Frontier continue to work separately under the Frontier CBA. The issue of whether all Pilots on the merged seniority list established by Arbitrator Eischen have present and vested rights to jobs at Frontier has been presented to Arbitrator Eischen with a final briefing scheduled for March 24, 2014."
 

 
"There still remains an IMSL covering all Pilots on the formerly-found Republic Airlines, et al./Frontier single transportation system. However, no collectively bargained implementing agreement was ever concluded so the Frontier Pilots have been effectively operating separately under the Frontier CBA."
 
https://storage.googleapis.com/dakota-dev-content/41-NMB-No.-11-FUI-Frontier-Ailines-Inc.-FAPA-IBT.pdf
 
Does any of THIS SOUND FAMILIAR???  The MOU supersedes the transition agreement which is EXACTLY what USAPA is arguing and will win.  M-B ALTERS the RLA in that the APA CANNOT DO TO US WHAT THEY DID TO TWA.  That is what the Seventh Circuit said with the Flight Attendants.  They'll repeat it here.
 
Of course Dan, Chip and their AOL handlers still live in the "State of Denial" and are paddling their canoe on the river "De-nial".  
 
I just love slapping these guys in the face with the LAW!  Something Dan readily admits he doesn't read.

 

[Barrister]

That's a mighty tall claim, I think you'd come up a little short find somone high in stature that agrees with you.

Dan
Go read the ual/co award. Yes they pay nic their professional hurrahs
But then go on to cite in several diff ways what a disaster it was
For a somewhat intelligent guy you sometimes have your head up your ass!!
Nicdoa
NPJB

 

[Beancounter]

Is the Nicolau implemented? Is there not massive east attrition and subsequent upgrades? Are there not unprecedented occurrences such as new hires going into the left seat of a major airline in their first year of employment? Others immediately into wide body seats where they won't be flushed. Good pay.
East pilots seem to be realizing what everyone knew would happen without west pilots or combined operations. Nicolau got it all wrong. We all just proved it. Sit back and watch it happen. USAPA made it all happen. You chose not to participate by not compromising and insisting on disparate pay. Your loss.
The only thing you can do is make stupid movies and complain.

I agree with some of what you wrote, but I think you gloss over the fact that without the merger there would have been no US Airways.  Yes. I know we would have probably gone into bankruptcy on our own, but let's just say we needed each other, US and AWA.  As far as sitting back, I'm too busy for that, although I agree there isn't much to do, except to watch it happen.  I have a feeling it won't be very long, before USAPA is in the same situation.  Wish It weren't the case and that they'd fairly represent all, but it's probably for the best that APA takeover.
 
Bean

 

[traderjake]

I just love slapping these guys in the face with the LAW!  Something Dan readily admits he doesn't read.

 
I said I don't have a TV so I haven't watch as many episodes of Perry Mason as you.
 
If we had asked for credit for LOS instead of trying to staple the West with the idiotic reply "Mr Nicolau, we're comfortable with our position" we may have not spent the last 5 years on LOA 93. 
 
The difference between us and United Continental is that we were Chapter 11 facing severe down sizing if not Chapter 7 without the merger.  
 
This is going to arbitration, slotting by equipment and status will be the predominent method used and APA when granted SCS will give the West a MC. 
 
Jamie's 5 year dream of a DOH seniorithy list is dead.

 

[EastUS1]

The difference between us and United Continental is that we were Chapter 11 facing severe down sizing if not Chapter 7 without the merger.  

 
"facing"..? What if?/etc? Sounds like something that didn't actually happen, and is thus, just a fantasy. So seniority should be based on fantasy, versus reality? OK then. Just FYI: Each day a person gets up outta' bed, they're potentially "facing" even death it's self, and one day will. Ya' know "jake", when skydiving, there's always the possibility that 'chutes won't open, but yet they mostly do. Don't ever take up that sport. You certainly aren't made for such things. 🙂

 

[end_of_alpa]

 
I said I don't have a TV so I haven't watch as many episodes of Perry Mason as you.
 
If we had asked for credit for LOS instead of trying to staple the West with the idiotic reply "Mr Nicolau, we're comfortable with our position" we may have not spent the last 5 years on LOA 93. 
 
The difference between us and United Continental is that we were Chapter 11 facing severe down sizing if not Chapter 7 without the merger.  
 
This is going to arbitration, slotting by equipment and status will be the predominent method used and APA when granted SCS will give the West a MC. 
 
Jamie's 5 year dream of a DOH seniorithy list is dead.

I don't believe I have EVER watch an episode of Perry Mason.  Twilight Zone was my thing.  I just read and POST the CASE LAW.... no TV required.
 
We DID propose LOS but the furloughed guys STILL had more years (LOS) then most of the AOL guys.
 
While we were in C11 AWA was heading there in months, NOT YEARS.  Not my words, PARKERS WORDS.  
 
Tell me, Dan, WHY DID PARKER SAY THAT?  (Hint....It has to do with the stuff that the aircraft engines burn).
 
While I DON'T disagree with you regarding arbitration, I WILL disagree with you on the method.  This will NOT be ALPA merger policy, this will be M-B.  Night and Day.
 
Ten years and counting with the merger.  East.... ACCELERATED growth because of attrition.  West...... STAGNATION.  
 
So far, so good.  JUST THE FACTS DAN.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

I said I don't have a TV so I haven't watch as many episodes of Perry Mason as you.
 
If we had asked for credit for LOS instead of trying to staple the West with the idiotic reply "Mr Nicolau, we're comfortable with our position" we may have not spent the last 5 years on LOA 93. 
 
The difference between us and United Continental is that we were Chapter 11 facing severe down sizing if not Chapter 7 without the merger.  
 
This is going to arbitration, slotting by equipment and status will be the predominent method used and APA when granted SCS will give the West a MC. 
 
Jamie's 5 year dream of a DOH seniorithy list is dead.

http://jamhoff.com/PDFs/ArbitratorDecisionAward.pdf

At the same time Nicalou issued his award, Arbitrator Bloch in the matter of the dispatcher integration issued an award that denutted the financial analysis you cited by parroting Nicalou and the AWA pilots. In fact in his view the financial picture of the East side of the operation was much stronger and had much more to offer.

 

[snapthis]

The "Come As You Are" Governance Project
First Officer Neil Roghair, APA Vice President

While we dont know the date when the National Mediation Board will make a determination on our single-carrier filing, we expect it to occur within the next several months, and there is always the possibility it will occur sooner rather than later. With this in mind, some of us have been working on the "come as you are" governance project in the likely event that at some point soon, the pilots from the former US Airways will become part of APA and fall under our Constitution and Bylaws. I want to tell you what to expect when this happens.
 
We will continue the membership drive we started earlier this year. This drive focuses on both new hires and US Airways pilots. To make it easier for both groups, we will continue to use the electronic membership application that our IT department and APA Membership Committee created along with the USAPA Membership Committee.To date, we have received more than 500 applications from US Airways pilots. Members will vote on membership applications at existing APA domiciles, until domiciles are established at the new bases. A minimum of 100 APA members in good standing must exist at a domicile in order to qualify for two domicile representatives. The APA Policy Manual will be updated to put US Airways domiciles into the APA election cycle. DCA is unique as it is an existing APA domicile, so because we just held a DCA domicile election, that base will not have another election until the May 1, 2016, term. Upon single-carrier determination, our current DCA domicile representatives will begin representing the former US Airways pilots as soon as they are voted in as members. CLT, PHX and PHL will be placed in our existing C&B election categories (A, B, C or D), each of which has specific terms of office for chairman and vice chairman. The APA president will initially appoint two interim representatives at each domicile until elections for chairman and vice chairman can be held. If fewer than six months remain in the applicable term of office, the elections will be held at a domicile meeting. If more than six months remain, elections will be conducted through the BallotPoint election system used for regularly scheduled elections. In both cases, the elected representatives will serve the remainder of the unfinished term of office.
For example, if the current terms of office for Category A domiciles expire Oct. 31, 2014, and CLT is established as a domicile July 1, 2015, and placed in Category A, the elections for chairman and vice chairman would take place at a domicile meeting because fewer than six months remain in the terms of office. By contrast, if PHX and PHL are placed in Category D, the terms of which do not expire until Oct. 31, 2015, the elections for chairman and vice chairman would take place through the BallotPoint election system because more than six months are left in the terms of office. Once new representatives are added, the APA board of directors will grow from 16 members to 22. The key administrative step will be processing membership applications and voting on them at our domicile meetings. We are working to get a head start on that process.

The APA membership application can be accessed via a link on the right side of the APA public home page or directly at mbrapp.alliedpilots.org. Feel free to share the link with pilots you know at US Airways and encourage them to get started on the process so they can participate in APA elections and benefits as soon as possible after the single-carrier filing. Our staff and pilot volunteers are working diligently to prepare to support all members of what will soon become the worlds largest independent pilot union.

 

[EastUS1]

 
DCA is unique as it is an existing APA domicile, so because we just held a DCA domicile election, that base will not have another election until the May 1, 2016, term. Upon single-carrier determination, our current DCA domicile representatives will begin representing the former US Airways pilots as soon as they are voted in as members.
 
The APA president will initially appoint two interim representatives at each domicile until elections for chairman and vice chairman can be held. If fewer than six months remain in the applicable term of office, the elections will be held at a domicile meeting. If more than six months remain, elections will be conducted through the BallotPoint election system used for regularly scheduled elections.
 

 
In summation: The APA's telling "you'se" that they'll initially appoint whoever they want, without any restriction to their even being from the US/AWA side, and this is cause for hearty cheering out west? Whew! Truly is it said that "Stupid is as stupid does."
 
"The APA membership application can be accessed via a link on the right side of the APA public home page or directly at mbrapp.alliedpilots.org." Best do that immediately! Who knows?....Perhaps they'll be giving away designer T-shirts to the first 1,000! 😉 Sigh...While "you'se" are at it; don't forget to buy some more $675 ties: http://www.cactuspilotcontributors.com/libertynecktie.html

 

[Barrister]

Picture this. If AMR tries to strong arm us by circumventing MB then it isn't federally binding right. What prevents the East from taking up a collection and suing for an injunction against APA for DFR and tying this up for another 5-10 years.  This will be OVER if under MB......but just warming up if not !!!!
That is why it will be MB all the way.
 
And ALL of you Westies should know that Silver doesn't have the legal authority to decree what she did re: future representation for ISL purposes. I guarantee APA knows it but will carry her water until the next court sets them straight too!!!!  This really is simple USAPA is a signatory/ party to the MOU. It is laughable what you guys think will happen.  Will gladly see this tied up for as long as it takes. 
 
NICDOA
NPJB

 

[end_of_alpa]

Picture this. If AMR tries to strong arm us by circumventing MB then it isn't federally binding right. What prevents the East from taking up a collection and suing for an injunction against APA for DFR and tying this up for another 5-10 years.  This will be OVER if under MB......but just warming up if not !!!!
That is why it will be MB all the way.
 
And ALL of you Westies should know that Silver doesn't have the legal authority to decree what she did re: future representation for ISL purposes. I guarantee APA knows it but will carry her water until the next court sets them straight too!!!!  This really is simple USAPA is a signatory/ party to the MOU. It is laughable what you guys think will happen.  Will gladly see this tied up for as long as it takes. 
 
NICDOA
NPJB

USAPA is doing that now. No collection required, plenty of money in the bank.

It's all good...... For USAPA!

 

[snapthis]

AAUS Airways Merger Accomplished,
Now on to Seniority Integration
By First Officer Tim Daudelin, Seniority Integration Committee Member
With the merger between American Airlines and US Airways now accomplished, the time seems right for a brief review of the McCaskillBond legislation relating to the integration of  the work groups at the two carriers.The statute originated after American acquired TWA in 2001. Missouri Sens. Claire McCaskill and Kit Bond, who were unhappy with the way AMR integrated TWA workers, introduced an amendment to an omnibus spending bill to guarantee certain labor protective provisions (LPPs) for covered airline transactions. The statute defined a covered event as the combination of multiple carriers that involves the transfer of 50 percent or more of an air carriers assets or equity and would require a "fair and equitable" integration of seniority lists for the employees of crafts or classes that are subject to the Railway Labor Act (RLA). President George W. Bush signed the bill into law in 2007. The McCaskill-Bond statute did not create a new law but rather utilized two sections 3 and 13 of the LPPs imposed by the CivilAeronautics Board in the Allegheny-Mohawk merger of 1971. Essentially, the new statute requires that the carrier make provisions for integration of the seniority lists, but not necessarily the labor agreements, in a "fair and equitable manner," including negotiation with the union and employee representatives and binding arbitration as necessary. The parties to these negotiations are the employee groups or unions of the companies and the carrier or carriers involved in thetransaction, and the statute establishes that the carrier bears the responsibility to provide the fair and equitable process. The parties canaccept a voluntarily negotiated integrated seniority list (ISL) as outlined in Section 3 of the LPPs, or else, to the extent the unions or employee groups fail to present such a voluntary list, it is the carriers duty to engage in arbitration with those groups as outlined in Section 13 of the LPPs.In the case of a covered transaction that involves parties represented by the same union, the internal merger policy of the union must be used, and the carrier will have no input in the process, except to decide whether it will accept and implement the ISL. This was the case in both the Delta Northwest and UnitedContinental mergers, as both pilot groups in these mergers were members of ALPA, so the internal ALPA merger policy was applied. The merger of US Airways and America West took place before the enactment of McCaskill-Bond, so it could not have been applied, but evenif it had occurred after the effective date, ALPA represented both carriers, so its merger policy would have taken precedence. The merger of Southwest and Air Tran fell under McCaskill-Bond because it met the requirements for the asset and equity transfer and involved the merger of operations and the combination of workers of crafts or classes covered by the RLA. The arbitration of provision of the statute was never
triggered, though, because the pilot unions reached a voluntary agreement without having to invoke the Section 13 arbitration aspect.
 
ALPA Merger Policy vs. McCaskill-Bond
As stated in the article above, the recent UALCAL merger and ISL
development process were governed by the ALPA merger policy
because ALPA represented both carriers pilots. In April 2009, ALPA
revised its merger policy by replacing the "five goals" that required
negotiators, mediators and arbitrators to weigh in integrating seniority
lists with three specific factors that must be considered: longevity, status
and category, and career expectations. Negotiators, mediators and
arbitrators are free to take into account other elements, and the weight
placed on each of the elements is at their discretion, but the three core
factors must be considered. It is important to note that the ALPA
merger policy is separate from the McCaskill-Bond requirements,
which place no requirement on parties who are not represented by
ALPA to adhere to these criteria. While parties involved in a McCaskillBond
covered transaction merger, such as AAUS, are free to adopt
any of these elements when developing an ISL that meets the "fair and
equitable" standard, they are under no obligation to do so.

There is also a provision in the statute, Section 13b, that allows the merging labor groups and the carrier to establish, by mutual agreement, alternative arbitration and dispute resolution processes from those detailed in Section 13a of the statute. When APA negotiated the MOU with USAPA and the company, consistent with this part of the statute, the AAUS Airways Merger Accomplished (continued from page 7)parties established an alternative process and conditions for the ISL development. Paragraph 10 of the MOU details the timetable for the negotiations and, if necessary, arbitration for our seniority integration process and establishes the makeup of
the panel of arbitrators and the criteria they will use in any ISL arbitration proceeding.
The overriding standard that must be followed throughout both phases negotiation and arbitration, and ultimately in the
ISL is that of "fair and equitable." Neither McCaskill-Bond nor the original Allegheny-Mohawk LPPs actually define this term,
so we are required to look to prior seniority integrations to understand what other groups and arbitrators have used, while
acknowledging that each integration is different. Pre-merger career expectations, fleets, networks, pilot demographics and
longevity are just a few of the aspects that have been considered when defining this term. These facets, along with others that
are appropriate to the pilot groups in the American merger, will be explored in crafting the criteria that are most appropriate
to integrating the pilot groups, with the ultimate goal of achieving an ISL that meets the standard of "fair and equitable."