2014 Pilot Discussion
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luvthe9
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Yes that primitive group has crushed those mighty desert spartans, their undeveloped west lobes can't allow for much cognitive thought hence their difficulties understanding the world is now and has always been a beautiful NIC FREE WORLD for all to enjoy..(but keep theose donations coming).prechilill said:
traderjake
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luvthe9 said:
I'm happy to see you made peace with our West brothers and teamed up with them to boot Hummel out.
You should have spent your time working with the East where you lost by a margin of 63% to 37%, almost 2 to 1.
Congradulations on carrying PHX.
luvthe9
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[SIZE=small]Found this floating on the internet..........., [/SIZE]
Typical of Munn to sound the alarm bells over M-B based on Judge Silver's misinformed dicta. Also typical of Munn is his lack of rigorous analysis, intellectual laziness and intellectual dishonesty. Much of the text in Judge Silver's decision was her dicta. There were 2 hands that wrote the decision. It's not difficult to determine the areas that were written by her clerk and the emotion laden dicta written by her.
It's hard to ignore a squeaky wheel. But ignore it, we must. Thanks for warning the newer pilots who are less informed about Munn's tactics.
:
[SIZE=small]For those of you new to the airline, you should know we have a pilot here named Chip that runs a website called Pilotaction. Ask around and almost any pilot you meet will tell you that if you keep score, Chip has been wrong on most issues at least 85% of the time. But that doesn't stop him from pontificating on every subject he knows little about.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]A little history: He had been a supporter of USAPA until it became evident that USAPA would replace ALPA, then he became a supporter of ALPA. Then he suggested a union job action which cost him his job, only to get his job back through the help of Mike Cleary, later USAPA President. Then he became a big company supporter and a Mike Cleary hater. He is consistent.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]He told anyone that would listen that he had "inside information from someone high in management" that a merger between United and US Airways was a 'done deal' costing many pilots many hundreds of thousands of dollars when they put their 401 K money in US Airways stock as a result.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]He has continually expressed his opinion each time USAPA has had to defend itself in court that this time USAPA would lose and give his reasons. Each time USAPA won, he would ignore the results as if he never said what he did. Many times he would just give the west pilots opinions as fact and often sites their legal teams as to why USAPA will lose the next one. There are few if any people at this airline that has as little insight into what happens at USAPA than Chip Munn.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]He has become the Joe Biden of US Airways and if you don't agree with him, you are removed from his website and become his mortal enemy. This is one of his latest "the sky is falling" on the US Airways Pilots.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]This pilot group has been through a lot. We are constantly worried that things will never get better here and having someone like Chip send out his disinformation only adds to the paranoia that has become common place here. Instead of supporting his fellow pilots, he constantly tells them that the "end is near" and when he does, it gets some play. [/SIZE]
One thing to remember when you read something by Chip. Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
[SIZE=small]Subj: Common Sense vs. "Chip" il logic[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]For many of these recent years I have found myself busy staying engaged in more worthwhile productions than writing an article such as this one. But when I see the occasional PilotAction stupidity such as this I just can’t resist the urge to SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]First off, let me lead off with just a little history. As most of you know, USAPA was founded mostly on remedying the fundamental flaws a national organization like ALPA has brought on its membership. While “LOA 93” and several other issues with ALPA festered over time, the seniority integration we are all familiar with was most certainly the proverbial “straw that broke the camel’s back.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Now, with Addington I behind us on appeal as “not ripe” in favor of USAPA, US Airways Declaratory Judgment behind us on appeal in favor of USAPA that they don’t have to use the Nicolau Award provided they have a legitimate union purpose (LUP), and then Addington II which found IN FAVOR OF USAPA in Count I that USAPA did not violate their duty of representation to the West pilot class (and therefore proving they DID have a LUP in negotiating the MOU)…..we have CHIP MUNN![/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]So, what does Chip do? He gathers his LEGAL staff headed up by West pilot Mark Doyal (and probably Jeff Koontz, who perjured himself on the stand in Judge Silvers court trial by stating that the Nicolau award was a length of service integration) and OPINES that USAPA will lose representational status in McCaskill-Bond.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Why? Well because Judge Silver put in her ORDER (title of RULING) one EXTRA paragraph, vi., that simply adds fuel to an already smoldering and soon to expire lawsuit saga. If Judge Silver had simply taken more time to reflect on the law and less time castigating USAPA for the West Class benefit we might have a lot smoother sailing. But her RULING simply states the facts: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Count I and Count IV in favor of: USAPA. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Count II (which was previously dismissed) in favor of: US Airways. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Count III: DISMISSED.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]But NOT WITH CHIP “LAW”.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Chips “false hope” approach serves the interests of NO ONE and can easily be refuted if ALL PILOTS SIMPLY READ THE LAW.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Here is Chip’s “comment”:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]On Friday, January 17, 2014 7:15 AM, Chip wrote:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]With APA emphasizing to its members that it will become our agent in about six months and then alluding to USAPA that not have a seat at the M-B arbitration table by quoting Judge Silver in yesterday's APA update I believe there should be real concern within our pilot group.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small] From my perch USAPA's problem is who enforces the Protocol Agreement and our union's behalf when USAPA is gone? There is nothing in the M-B statute regarding a Protocol Agreement. Ultimately I believe it's the AAL's and APA's obligation to administer and fair and equitable process and use reasonable means to do so. And, "reasonable means" is whatever AAL and APA decide, which to me is not too comforting. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=small] I believe attorney Mark Doyal is right when he said, "It was her ruling. USAPA 'won' the 'CBA can only attend M-B' argument, and she explained why, then stated her ruling on that would also apply to USAPA. I have no idea where you came up with it as 'dicta'. The only dicta I read was where she implored USAPA to fairly represent the west prior to USAPA being flushed with single carrier. Looks like APA agrees with this. USAPA won't have enough time to get this before the 9th (Circuit). USAPA should have paid attention to this issue when helping write the MOU, instead of trying to screw the west with paragraph 10, which didn't carry any weight in the end."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Regards,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Chip[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]However and totally in character Chip and his “West pilot legal team” they continue to “cherry pick” tidbits out of the already heated rhetoric. Just like they did in the past THREE lawsuits. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Maybe if Chip would leave his “perch” on his “high horse” he just might get a better view of the LAW and REALITY.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Never fear….lets clear up the madness.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]There are only THREE documents you need to get the FACTS straight:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]1. The MOU[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]2. The McCaskill-Bond Statute[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]3. 59 C.A.B. 45 Allegheny-Mohawk merger policy (Section 3. and Section 13)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]The nutshell version. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]1. McCaskill-bond incorporates Allegheny-Mohawk.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]2. Allegheny-Mohawk states:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Section 13 (a) In the event that any dispute or controversy (except as to matters arising under section 9) arises with respect to the protections provided herein which cannot be settle by the parties within 20 days after the controversy arises, it may be referred by any party to an arbitrator selected from a panel of seven names furnished by the National Mediation Board for consideration and determination. The parties shall select the arbitrator from such panel by alternatively striking names until only one remains, and he shall serve as arbitrator. Expedited hearings and decisions will be expected, and a decision shall be rendered within 90 days after the controversy arises, unless an extension of time it is mutually agreeable to all parties.The salary and expenses of the arbitrator shall be borne equally by the carrier and (i) the organization or organizations representing employee or employees or (ii) if unrepresented, the employee or employees or group or groups of employees. The decision of the arbitrator shall be final and binding on the parties.[/SIZE]
<>(b.) [SIZE=small]3. Section 13(b.) Incorporates the MOU.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Please read 13(b.) the MOU OUTLINES BY MUTUAL AGREEMENT PROCEDURE IN 13.(b) THAT USAPA, APA AND THE COMPANY(S) MUST ABIDE BY,THAT IS AGREED TO BY ALL PARTIES.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]USAPA will most certainly lose its representational right if and when the APA becomes the certified bargaining agent by the NMB REGARDING THE JCBA. But USAPA is still THE MERGER PARTY regarding the MOU for seniority integration regardless of what Judge Silver says. The APA and American recognizes this (or they BETTER recognize it if THEY do not want to be sued themselves for Hybrid 301/Breach of contract). [/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]What the APA says in their latest update states:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]“The APA Seniority Integration Committee will continue to pursue the negotiation of a seniority integration protocol with USAPA and American Airlines, as required by the MOU. This protocol will establish the rules of engagement for APA and USAPA going forward.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]In short, the MOU IS INCORPORATED INTO MCCASKILL-BOND BY WAY OF SECTION 13(b.) OF ALLEGHENY-MOHAWK.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Judge Silver cannot rewrite neither the law or the contract…..as she so aptly stated herself.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]You are now free to get up and move about the country.[/SIZE]
Typical of Munn to sound the alarm bells over M-B based on Judge Silver's misinformed dicta. Also typical of Munn is his lack of rigorous analysis, intellectual laziness and intellectual dishonesty. Much of the text in Judge Silver's decision was her dicta. There were 2 hands that wrote the decision. It's not difficult to determine the areas that were written by her clerk and the emotion laden dicta written by her.
It's hard to ignore a squeaky wheel. But ignore it, we must. Thanks for warning the newer pilots who are less informed about Munn's tactics.
:
[SIZE=small]For those of you new to the airline, you should know we have a pilot here named Chip that runs a website called Pilotaction. Ask around and almost any pilot you meet will tell you that if you keep score, Chip has been wrong on most issues at least 85% of the time. But that doesn't stop him from pontificating on every subject he knows little about.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]A little history: He had been a supporter of USAPA until it became evident that USAPA would replace ALPA, then he became a supporter of ALPA. Then he suggested a union job action which cost him his job, only to get his job back through the help of Mike Cleary, later USAPA President. Then he became a big company supporter and a Mike Cleary hater. He is consistent.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]He told anyone that would listen that he had "inside information from someone high in management" that a merger between United and US Airways was a 'done deal' costing many pilots many hundreds of thousands of dollars when they put their 401 K money in US Airways stock as a result.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]He has continually expressed his opinion each time USAPA has had to defend itself in court that this time USAPA would lose and give his reasons. Each time USAPA won, he would ignore the results as if he never said what he did. Many times he would just give the west pilots opinions as fact and often sites their legal teams as to why USAPA will lose the next one. There are few if any people at this airline that has as little insight into what happens at USAPA than Chip Munn.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]He has become the Joe Biden of US Airways and if you don't agree with him, you are removed from his website and become his mortal enemy. This is one of his latest "the sky is falling" on the US Airways Pilots.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]This pilot group has been through a lot. We are constantly worried that things will never get better here and having someone like Chip send out his disinformation only adds to the paranoia that has become common place here. Instead of supporting his fellow pilots, he constantly tells them that the "end is near" and when he does, it gets some play. [/SIZE]
One thing to remember when you read something by Chip. Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
[SIZE=small]Subj: Common Sense vs. "Chip" il logic[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]For many of these recent years I have found myself busy staying engaged in more worthwhile productions than writing an article such as this one. But when I see the occasional PilotAction stupidity such as this I just can’t resist the urge to SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]First off, let me lead off with just a little history. As most of you know, USAPA was founded mostly on remedying the fundamental flaws a national organization like ALPA has brought on its membership. While “LOA 93” and several other issues with ALPA festered over time, the seniority integration we are all familiar with was most certainly the proverbial “straw that broke the camel’s back.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Now, with Addington I behind us on appeal as “not ripe” in favor of USAPA, US Airways Declaratory Judgment behind us on appeal in favor of USAPA that they don’t have to use the Nicolau Award provided they have a legitimate union purpose (LUP), and then Addington II which found IN FAVOR OF USAPA in Count I that USAPA did not violate their duty of representation to the West pilot class (and therefore proving they DID have a LUP in negotiating the MOU)…..we have CHIP MUNN![/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]So, what does Chip do? He gathers his LEGAL staff headed up by West pilot Mark Doyal (and probably Jeff Koontz, who perjured himself on the stand in Judge Silvers court trial by stating that the Nicolau award was a length of service integration) and OPINES that USAPA will lose representational status in McCaskill-Bond.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Why? Well because Judge Silver put in her ORDER (title of RULING) one EXTRA paragraph, vi., that simply adds fuel to an already smoldering and soon to expire lawsuit saga. If Judge Silver had simply taken more time to reflect on the law and less time castigating USAPA for the West Class benefit we might have a lot smoother sailing. But her RULING simply states the facts: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Count I and Count IV in favor of: USAPA. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Count II (which was previously dismissed) in favor of: US Airways. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Count III: DISMISSED.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]But NOT WITH CHIP “LAW”.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Chips “false hope” approach serves the interests of NO ONE and can easily be refuted if ALL PILOTS SIMPLY READ THE LAW.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Here is Chip’s “comment”:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]On Friday, January 17, 2014 7:15 AM, Chip wrote:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]With APA emphasizing to its members that it will become our agent in about six months and then alluding to USAPA that not have a seat at the M-B arbitration table by quoting Judge Silver in yesterday's APA update I believe there should be real concern within our pilot group.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small] From my perch USAPA's problem is who enforces the Protocol Agreement and our union's behalf when USAPA is gone? There is nothing in the M-B statute regarding a Protocol Agreement. Ultimately I believe it's the AAL's and APA's obligation to administer and fair and equitable process and use reasonable means to do so. And, "reasonable means" is whatever AAL and APA decide, which to me is not too comforting. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=small] I believe attorney Mark Doyal is right when he said, "It was her ruling. USAPA 'won' the 'CBA can only attend M-B' argument, and she explained why, then stated her ruling on that would also apply to USAPA. I have no idea where you came up with it as 'dicta'. The only dicta I read was where she implored USAPA to fairly represent the west prior to USAPA being flushed with single carrier. Looks like APA agrees with this. USAPA won't have enough time to get this before the 9th (Circuit). USAPA should have paid attention to this issue when helping write the MOU, instead of trying to screw the west with paragraph 10, which didn't carry any weight in the end."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Regards,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Chip[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]However and totally in character Chip and his “West pilot legal team” they continue to “cherry pick” tidbits out of the already heated rhetoric. Just like they did in the past THREE lawsuits. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Maybe if Chip would leave his “perch” on his “high horse” he just might get a better view of the LAW and REALITY.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Never fear….lets clear up the madness.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]There are only THREE documents you need to get the FACTS straight:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]1. The MOU[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]2. The McCaskill-Bond Statute[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]3. 59 C.A.B. 45 Allegheny-Mohawk merger policy (Section 3. and Section 13)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]The nutshell version. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]1. McCaskill-bond incorporates Allegheny-Mohawk.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]2. Allegheny-Mohawk states:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Section 13 (a) In the event that any dispute or controversy (except as to matters arising under section 9) arises with respect to the protections provided herein which cannot be settle by the parties within 20 days after the controversy arises, it may be referred by any party to an arbitrator selected from a panel of seven names furnished by the National Mediation Board for consideration and determination. The parties shall select the arbitrator from such panel by alternatively striking names until only one remains, and he shall serve as arbitrator. Expedited hearings and decisions will be expected, and a decision shall be rendered within 90 days after the controversy arises, unless an extension of time it is mutually agreeable to all parties.The salary and expenses of the arbitrator shall be borne equally by the carrier and (i) the organization or organizations representing employee or employees or (ii) if unrepresented, the employee or employees or group or groups of employees. The decision of the arbitrator shall be final and binding on the parties.[/SIZE]
<>(b.) [SIZE=small]3. Section 13(b.) Incorporates the MOU.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Please read 13(b.) the MOU OUTLINES BY MUTUAL AGREEMENT PROCEDURE IN 13.(b) THAT USAPA, APA AND THE COMPANY(S) MUST ABIDE BY,THAT IS AGREED TO BY ALL PARTIES.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]USAPA will most certainly lose its representational right if and when the APA becomes the certified bargaining agent by the NMB REGARDING THE JCBA. But USAPA is still THE MERGER PARTY regarding the MOU for seniority integration regardless of what Judge Silver says. The APA and American recognizes this (or they BETTER recognize it if THEY do not want to be sued themselves for Hybrid 301/Breach of contract). [/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]What the APA says in their latest update states:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]“The APA Seniority Integration Committee will continue to pursue the negotiation of a seniority integration protocol with USAPA and American Airlines, as required by the MOU. This protocol will establish the rules of engagement for APA and USAPA going forward.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]In short, the MOU IS INCORPORATED INTO MCCASKILL-BOND BY WAY OF SECTION 13(b.) OF ALLEGHENY-MOHAWK.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]Judge Silver cannot rewrite neither the law or the contract…..as she so aptly stated herself.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=small]You are now free to get up and move about the country.[/SIZE]
electricjet98 said:
Oh hardly. Heck! I can't even imagine myself a "spartan", much less heroic "knight", "dire wolf" or even "Larry Potta", and I've no faith that wearing some T-shirt magically imbues anyone with "Integrity", so I'll leave Fantasyland to "you'se" kids. 😉
snapthis said:
Who will then? If "you'se" are counting on the APA to make all your dreams come true...well...rotsa' ruck with that fantasy, which has to rank as perhaps the most delusional yet seen on these boards, notwithstanding the vast storehouse of "spartan"-posted competition over the years.
Remember his op-ed piece in the Charlotte Observer attacking the IAM and CWA and ALPA had to put our a press release saying he has nothing to do with ALPA and had to distance themselves from his lie filled editorial.
You steal that phrase from elsewhere?prechilill said:
Your greatest work:
[SIZE=12pt]"Ripeness is a given- all parties of interest except one think so.
Injunction issued by July
POR August 31
West pilots take 330 captain bids in Fall.
USAPA gone by December
A few disgruntled AFO easties try to sue the APA and the company- case goes nowhere. Eventually, interest wanes as the AFOs retire, see the futility in their efforts and realize they need to purchase a small piece of land with a trailer on it to afford retirement.
A sad ending for such a bitter group"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]And you have the nerve to talk about anyone else?[/SIZE]
traderjake
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nycbusdriver said:
Delaying resolution of the SLI and 5 years of LOA 93 is a successful job?
You might want to raise your standards a little.
Check out this way back post:luvthe9 said:
AWA320
Posted 12 August 2007 - 12:45 PM
He claims to have enough cards!! He says that his attorneys say "we can win" He says "we will get this award over turned" If any of this is true and it's a really big if tell me something USA320, what does your attorney say about USAPA being sued by the AWA pilots?? What does your attorney say about not getting the aid of 2000 pilots on the westside and what that will do to your chances??? What does your attorney say about 2000 west pilots doing the direct opposite of EVERYTHING usapa does????
Will you have medical the ALPA aero provides??
Will you have legal services that ALPA legal provides???
Will you have the accident protection that ALPA provides???
You won't have the money to fight the company that ALPA provides so we already know that answer and without the financial support of the west pilots it will fail!!
The east MEC has over twenty meetings a year how will you afford all the FPL???
These are some tough questions and I hope he has the answers that satisify you because if not he will have hurt you AGAIN!!
Once a GAGer always one right??
Prediction, if and again that's a big if you can even get this done usapa will be broke in a year.
Great history! You can see where the original tic-toc clock came in. 🙂
http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/37430-aaa-alpa-thread-9-7-to-9-13/page-22
http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/37430-aaa-alpa-thread-9-7-to-9-13/page-22
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