2014 Pilot Discussion
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Keroseneuser
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GG, That is how I read it also, AOL made this judgment all about the MOU constituting "the JCBA" mentioned in the 2005 T/A. Since the just finished case was based on that premise, judge Silver just ruled that the MOU did not constitute a JCBA as defined in the 2005 T/A, and by default also ruled that the MOU is valid and in effect. Which also validates the fact that it makes null and void all "bargaining positions, status quo, and previous agreements"
I am sure more lawsuits are to be filed by AOL, however I cannot see where they are going to gain any traction as long as the MOU is followed. The way I read it Judge Silver just ruled that both east and west decided to toss out the last 9 years of stalemate in favor of using the December 9th 2013 seniority lists as the starting point for merging with AA, "list" and "lists".
Considering the judgments Silver just passed down that is why if I were an AOL supporter I would do some hard research before cutting more checks to them.
But hey that's just me, People can spend their money on whatever they like as far as I am concerned.
I am sure more lawsuits are to be filed by AOL, however I cannot see where they are going to gain any traction as long as the MOU is followed. The way I read it Judge Silver just ruled that both east and west decided to toss out the last 9 years of stalemate in favor of using the December 9th 2013 seniority lists as the starting point for merging with AA, "list" and "lists".
Considering the judgments Silver just passed down that is why if I were an AOL supporter I would do some hard research before cutting more checks to them.
But hey that's just me, People can spend their money on whatever they like as far as I am concerned.
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Now this thread is really becoming entertaining!!!
"Coping with failure....."
"How to fire your lawyer......"
TOO FUNNY!
"Coping with failure....."
"How to fire your lawyer......"
TOO FUNNY!
nic4us said:
Hey nic,
You may want to re-read Silver's order......SHE MADE NO SUCH RULING, despite what you may read in the Leonidas' latest update. Wait, wasn't it Leonidas that told you the MOU constituted the JCBA required in the old TA? Well then, forgive me....if I were you, I would donate your whole retro check to Leonidas. It will be the best money you ever spent!!!
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WAIT FOR IT.........
Zone5
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Phoenix said:It's not just "denial" anymore... A guy named "CactusBoss" is hallucinating... He is claiming APA will grant the West a seat and exclude USAPA when APA becomes the new bargaining agent.
More like delusional, the mighty Spartans will no doubt fight on, much like the Black Knight from Monty Python!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4
seajay
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Now that Judge Silvers order has taken a day to sink in, lets all come back to reality.
For the West pilots in general and AOL in particular your support for the Nicolau Award amounts to nothing more than a fly on the back of a horse. It is time to move on and let the events go forward.
First, USAPA has the right to propose one SINGLE INTEGRATION LIST that they believe meets the Fair and Equitable requirements of MB. Period. It would be wise for the West members of the Merger committee (Holmes and Stravers) to encourage ALL the pilots to put the seniority differences aside. Having said that USAPA now has in it's own hands THEIR seniority list which is DOH. (Judge Silver: "USAPA then began negotiating a collective bargaining agreement with US Airways. During those negotiations, USAPA proposed a seniority list based on date-of-hire but no collective bargaining agreement was ever finalized."
USAPA could and most likely will propose an integrated SLI that recognizes the East pilots accelerated retirement attrition that allows West pilots exclusive bidding for equipment upgrades in the East domiciles for a fenced period of time. We could also provide that same protection for APA pilots over the same or similar period. Now that is my prediction and I think that would work relatively well for everyone. While West pilots wouldn't get "relative" position advancement they WOULD get "attrition" advancement faster than APA would offer. In short WE get what WE brought to the table as well.
Having said that and reading Judge Silvers order we come to a few "tidbits" of "fact" that can be averted if the proper due diligence by APA and USAPA along with the New American are worked out ahead of tie and that will be in the Protocol 10 f. Judge Silver may believe the USAPA victory is "pyrrhic" but having that advanced admonition the "three parties" (AMR, APA and USAPA) can stave off any possibility of loss of "representational" issues regarding the SLI.
First, even though Judge Silver seems to "believe" that USAPA would loose its arbitration place if and when the NMB rules single carrier status, all three "parties" could simply amend the MOU to reflect that USAPA will either NOT lose it after the election or better still renegotiate that the election will be postponed until the sli is complete, that APA has exclusive enforcement of the JCBA at the time of the SLI is issued. In short, there are many ways Judge Silvers "prediction" could easily be avoided.
In any case, even the APA legal department recognizes the process that MUST BE COMPLETED WITH USAPA as follows (letter in USAPA Merger column):
March 13, 2013
This past month, your APA General Counsel has received three letters from Marty Harper, attorney for a class of former America West pilots who have threatened legal action in the event that APA does not recognize the decision by Arbitrator George Nicolau regarding the US Airways-America West seniority integration list. Mr. Harper sent similar letters to counsel for US Airways and counsel for the US Airline Pilots Association (USAPA). These letters threaten legal action on the basis that the seniority list finalized in arbitration (Nicolau Award) between the former America West (West) and the US Airways (East) pilots was to go into effect upon the date of ratification of a single collective bargaining agreement involving the West and East pilots, all of whom are currently represented by USAPA. Mr. Harper contends that the Memorandum of Understanding/Merger Transition Agreement (MOU/MTA) that American, US Airways, USAPA and APA signed concerning the potential merger constitutes a single collective bargaining agreement between East and West, and therefore the failure to include the Nicolau Award in an integrated seniority list would constitute a breach of USAPA's duty of fair representation to the pilots it represents. During the past few years, this matter has been intensively litigated among the East and West pilots and US Airways. One aspect of the case is currently on appeal to the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit. In response to the various letters from Mr. Harper on behalf of the West pilots, USAPA has filed what is known as an Adversary Proceeding in the Bankruptcy Court seeking to enjoin the West pilots from contesting the merger. In response to this lawsuit, the West pilots filed a complaint on March 7 against USAPA and US Airways, Inc. seeking to have a court declare that the Nicolau Award be enforced. They indicated that they intend to file for expedited injunctive relief. APA takes no position on the merits of the dispute between the former East and former West pilots. However, APA has no wish to inherit this dispute in the event of a merger and will push to have it resolved between Mr. Harper's group and USAPA. Importantly, the seniority integration process in which APA will take part in the event of a merger has not even begun; this timeline is only triggered by the date of American Airlines' exit from bankruptcy (effective date), which is determined by the court's approval of the plan of reorganization (POR).
The process is as follows: within 30 days of the effective date of the merger, the timeline for the seniority integration process will begin. APA and USAPA will negotiate and approve a seniority integration protocol agreement that will establish the rules of engagement for the upcoming integration negotiations process. Within 90 days of the effective date, direct negotiations between the two unions will begin. If after 90 days of the effective date there is no agreement on an integrated seniority list, a panel of three arbitrators will be selected under the McCaskill-Bond statute to seek an arbitrated solution. Within 60 days of the arbitration panel being selected, but not before approval of a new joint collective bargaining agreement, the seniority arbitration will commence. The MOU stipulates that the conclusion of seniority integration must be completed within 24 months of the effective date. While we do not yet have an effective date regarding the bankruptcy POR, the expectation is that a POR will be submitted and approved sometime during the third quarter of this year, which will likely mean that we will not have an integrated seniority list for at least 24 to 30 months from today. Until that time, both parties will abide by the specific seniority protections specified in the MOU/MTA. In summary, due to the lengthy seniority integration timeline that hasn't yet begun, as well as the numerous factors involved in the court's approval of a POR, it is far too early for APA to comment on the effect of arbitrating the seniority integration issue based on the seniority lists put forth by USAPA and the West pilots. In the end it is our hope that this issue will be resolved to both parties satisfaction so that we can proceed to finding a mutually acceptable solution to a joint integrated seniority list."
This is ALSO the Company's interpretation as well.
Secondly (and lastly) now that the Judges order is out and done, it would behoove both USAPA and APA to come to a solution that can go out to the rank and file for ratification either before the timeline is up OR amend the MOU to reflect the timeline out to accommodate the ratification. They will all be meeting next week so maybe we will see the beginning of the end of separation.
Only time will tell.....
For the West pilots in general and AOL in particular your support for the Nicolau Award amounts to nothing more than a fly on the back of a horse. It is time to move on and let the events go forward.
First, USAPA has the right to propose one SINGLE INTEGRATION LIST that they believe meets the Fair and Equitable requirements of MB. Period. It would be wise for the West members of the Merger committee (Holmes and Stravers) to encourage ALL the pilots to put the seniority differences aside. Having said that USAPA now has in it's own hands THEIR seniority list which is DOH. (Judge Silver: "USAPA then began negotiating a collective bargaining agreement with US Airways. During those negotiations, USAPA proposed a seniority list based on date-of-hire but no collective bargaining agreement was ever finalized."
USAPA could and most likely will propose an integrated SLI that recognizes the East pilots accelerated retirement attrition that allows West pilots exclusive bidding for equipment upgrades in the East domiciles for a fenced period of time. We could also provide that same protection for APA pilots over the same or similar period. Now that is my prediction and I think that would work relatively well for everyone. While West pilots wouldn't get "relative" position advancement they WOULD get "attrition" advancement faster than APA would offer. In short WE get what WE brought to the table as well.
Having said that and reading Judge Silvers order we come to a few "tidbits" of "fact" that can be averted if the proper due diligence by APA and USAPA along with the New American are worked out ahead of tie and that will be in the Protocol 10 f. Judge Silver may believe the USAPA victory is "pyrrhic" but having that advanced admonition the "three parties" (AMR, APA and USAPA) can stave off any possibility of loss of "representational" issues regarding the SLI.
First, even though Judge Silver seems to "believe" that USAPA would loose its arbitration place if and when the NMB rules single carrier status, all three "parties" could simply amend the MOU to reflect that USAPA will either NOT lose it after the election or better still renegotiate that the election will be postponed until the sli is complete, that APA has exclusive enforcement of the JCBA at the time of the SLI is issued. In short, there are many ways Judge Silvers "prediction" could easily be avoided.
In any case, even the APA legal department recognizes the process that MUST BE COMPLETED WITH USAPA as follows (letter in USAPA Merger column):
March 13, 2013
This past month, your APA General Counsel has received three letters from Marty Harper, attorney for a class of former America West pilots who have threatened legal action in the event that APA does not recognize the decision by Arbitrator George Nicolau regarding the US Airways-America West seniority integration list. Mr. Harper sent similar letters to counsel for US Airways and counsel for the US Airline Pilots Association (USAPA). These letters threaten legal action on the basis that the seniority list finalized in arbitration (Nicolau Award) between the former America West (West) and the US Airways (East) pilots was to go into effect upon the date of ratification of a single collective bargaining agreement involving the West and East pilots, all of whom are currently represented by USAPA. Mr. Harper contends that the Memorandum of Understanding/Merger Transition Agreement (MOU/MTA) that American, US Airways, USAPA and APA signed concerning the potential merger constitutes a single collective bargaining agreement between East and West, and therefore the failure to include the Nicolau Award in an integrated seniority list would constitute a breach of USAPA's duty of fair representation to the pilots it represents. During the past few years, this matter has been intensively litigated among the East and West pilots and US Airways. One aspect of the case is currently on appeal to the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit. In response to the various letters from Mr. Harper on behalf of the West pilots, USAPA has filed what is known as an Adversary Proceeding in the Bankruptcy Court seeking to enjoin the West pilots from contesting the merger. In response to this lawsuit, the West pilots filed a complaint on March 7 against USAPA and US Airways, Inc. seeking to have a court declare that the Nicolau Award be enforced. They indicated that they intend to file for expedited injunctive relief. APA takes no position on the merits of the dispute between the former East and former West pilots. However, APA has no wish to inherit this dispute in the event of a merger and will push to have it resolved between Mr. Harper's group and USAPA. Importantly, the seniority integration process in which APA will take part in the event of a merger has not even begun; this timeline is only triggered by the date of American Airlines' exit from bankruptcy (effective date), which is determined by the court's approval of the plan of reorganization (POR).
The process is as follows: within 30 days of the effective date of the merger, the timeline for the seniority integration process will begin. APA and USAPA will negotiate and approve a seniority integration protocol agreement that will establish the rules of engagement for the upcoming integration negotiations process. Within 90 days of the effective date, direct negotiations between the two unions will begin. If after 90 days of the effective date there is no agreement on an integrated seniority list, a panel of three arbitrators will be selected under the McCaskill-Bond statute to seek an arbitrated solution. Within 60 days of the arbitration panel being selected, but not before approval of a new joint collective bargaining agreement, the seniority arbitration will commence. The MOU stipulates that the conclusion of seniority integration must be completed within 24 months of the effective date. While we do not yet have an effective date regarding the bankruptcy POR, the expectation is that a POR will be submitted and approved sometime during the third quarter of this year, which will likely mean that we will not have an integrated seniority list for at least 24 to 30 months from today. Until that time, both parties will abide by the specific seniority protections specified in the MOU/MTA. In summary, due to the lengthy seniority integration timeline that hasn't yet begun, as well as the numerous factors involved in the court's approval of a POR, it is far too early for APA to comment on the effect of arbitrating the seniority integration issue based on the seniority lists put forth by USAPA and the West pilots. In the end it is our hope that this issue will be resolved to both parties satisfaction so that we can proceed to finding a mutually acceptable solution to a joint integrated seniority list."
This is ALSO the Company's interpretation as well.
Secondly (and lastly) now that the Judges order is out and done, it would behoove both USAPA and APA to come to a solution that can go out to the rank and file for ratification either before the timeline is up OR amend the MOU to reflect the timeline out to accommodate the ratification. They will all be meeting next week so maybe we will see the beginning of the end of separation.
Only time will tell.....
nycbusdriver
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RSVP767 said:
He must have drawn the short straw among the whack-a-doodle westicles that normally post here.
Looks like the west has their own Baghdad Bob now.
traderjake
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end_of_alpa said:
USAPA can propose anything it wants (maybe) during negotiations with APA but when this goes to arbitration USAPA will present an East and a West list.
Bill Brasky
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I think that not giving the west a seat at the table greatly reduces the chance of this going to arbitration. Both of these pilot groups have been seriously bitten by it in the past.
It also greatly reduces the chance of the company stretching out the infighting, which is exactly what they don't want. Keeping everyone fighting has worked very well for these guys.
It also greatly reduces the chance of the company stretching out the infighting, which is exactly what they don't want. Keeping everyone fighting has worked very well for these guys.
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