2014 Pilot Discussion

[Mach85ER]

Observations from the AA side.
 
The Director of Flight position came out about 10 years ago. Used to be Chief and Assistant Chief positions. Rumor/Recollection is it was done to get head Chiefs on equal footing with other corporate groups who had "Directors" of potted plants running around. To me and every other pilot, it's still a Chief and Assistant Chief position. No big deal to the cockpit.
 
I have zero personal knowledge of your new PHL Chief from AA. I will say that our LGA (LGA/JFK/EWR flying) guys are unaminous is saying that it is a loss for the AA pilots and a gain for the USAirways pilots in PHL. I haven't heard one negative statement regarding him.
 
Although not perfect, and they are still management, there seems to be a general opinion the the AA Directors of Flight and Chiefs are pretty decent. There are always exceptions, but anyone in that group or the Check Airman group seems to get exiled back to the line if they get a overzealous rep or considered a problem child by the pilots. I personally can't complain, they could have been 1000% worse during the last very contentious 10 years. They stayed out of most fights and focused on running a safe operation.
 
I think you'll like the head Chief (VP) Hale. Although he had to spit out the company line as a Corporate Officer, he has helped many guys when they need it and led the other Chiefs in doing so. Very personable guy. Last VP was a total empty suit. If you need help, tough "mierda".
 
We'll all still get the brochures and motivational pep talks to work more for less, but if you needed help in some form, especially with family, my guess is you'll get it.

 

[algflyr]

January 24, 2014

Leonidas Update

The attorneys for the West Class and Leonidas LLC have spent the last two weeks reviewing Judge Silvers decision. While we do not agree with her decision for the reasons stated in our numerous briefings and during trial, we are left to work with her decision while any appeal winds its way through the system.

What does Judge Silvers ruling on McCaskill-Bond mean for the West Pilots, East Pilots and USAPA?

It is important to note that McCaskill-Bond is a new federal statute that has not been reviewed by any courts (other than now Judge Silver). As we have been for much of our struggle against USAPA, we are once again on the legal vanguard. We must stress that although we did not obtain the relief we requested on McCaskill-Bond, we do not believe that Judge Silvers ruling forecloses the West Pilots participation in the McCaskill-Bond seniority integration process. Although Judge Silver ruled that the West pilots dont have the right to participate in the McCaskill-Bond process, she did not rule that West Pilots could not participate; rather she determined that it is up to the collective bargaining agent to determine what groups of employees must participate in the process in order to make it fair and equitable. Conversely, Judge Silver unequivocally held that USAPA cannot participate once it is no longer the certified bargaining agent.

Judge Silver called USAPAs victory on McCakill-Bond Pyrrhic because USAPA, once again driven by its single-minded need to oppress West Pilots, has been the mastermind of its own march towards irrelevance. USAPA took the position that only the certified bargaining agent can determine who can participate in McCaskill-Bond in an effort to prevent West participation. Once again, USAPA did not think through its legal strategy because Judge Silvers acceptance of that argument means that once USAPA ceases to be a collective bargaining agent it cannot participate in McCakill-Bond or seniority integration. Judge Silver was unequivocal on this point: when USAPA is no longer the certified representative, it must immediately stop participating in the seniority integration. Doc. 298 at pg. 21:11-12. We will enforce the Courts ruling that USAPA cannot be involved in seniority integration at the earliest practicable date.

As you all know, APA filed with the NMB to become the certified bargaining agent for New American pilots on January 14th. From the recent APA updates, the leadership at APA anticipates that APA will become the representative organization for the combined pilot group and that the NMB will likely render its decision within the next six months. (Note: When USAPA filed for single carrier status, it took the NMB 72 days rule.) According to APA, the completion of an integrated seniority list is not a mandatory pre-condition for a single-carrier finding by the NMB. In fact, in the vast majority of significant airline mergers, the NMB has found a single carrier before the completion of seniority integration. (In 2007, ALPA opposed USAPA for similar reasons to no avail.) It is increasingly obvious that USAPAs plan to stay relevant is to oppose APAs Application to the NMB and urge no decision until the integration process is done.

Under our interpretation of Judge Silvers ruling, when APA becomes the certified bargaining agent for all New American pilots, APA will be responsible for determining which groups of employees are required to have separate representation for purposes of McCaskill-Bond. We believe that in line with their DFR obligations, APA will make the determination that the West Pilots should be afforded their own representation.

What is the status of the Nicolau Award?

Judge Silver did not rule against the Nicolau Award or that USAPA is free to proceed with date of hire. Rather, her narrow ruling found that USAPA had a legitimate union purpose for entering into the MOU. We believe this ruling was incorrect on both procedural and substantive grounds, but if the West Pilots are granted, as we believe they will be, their own representation in McCaskill-Bond, we still have the right to ask the Panel that the relative order of the US Airways pilots in any integration with American should be that found in the Arbitrated Nicolau Award.

What happens now?

In her ruling, Judge Silver stated that USAPAs current position of denying the West Pilots their own representation in McCaskill-Bond was unwise and that USAPA still has an obligation under McCaskill-Bond, as long as it is the certified bargaining representative for West Pilots, to give extensive consideration to the interests of the West Pilots and to make every effort to see that the West Pilots interest are fully and fairly represented during seniority integration. Order at pg. 21:8-11.

Earlier this week, the attorneys for the West Pilots sent a letter to Brian ODwyer, general counsel of USAPA, urging them to set up separate East and West committees, as chosen by the East and West BPR representatives for purposes of seniority integration. We also proposed that the issue of East and West seniority be finally decided by a single arbitrator. We have not heard back from Mr. ODwyer and given USAPAs past conduct are not exceedingly hopeful for a positive response; however, our proposal is undoubtedly the solution to the issue of East/West seniority that has plagued us for so long. It is also the only option to solve this issue before APA is forced to inherit it. You can read this letter in its entirety (here).

What can you do?

Our fight is not over. It is critical in the next few months that we continue to have representation and funding.

Sincerely,

Leonidas, LLC

www.cactuspilot.com

 
 
I read that update and can only laugh. There are so many things I can see that are wrong and really grasping for straws. I'm certainly not a lawyer, I can only imagine how a real lawyer, such as one that actually WROTE the M-B amendment, would respond to that update. It really feels like this is a big advertisement for the West pilots to send more money...
 
So a few things I can see (And I bet any West pilot see as well) at first glance... 
 
First, they talk about appeals. I believe the deadline to file an appeal has past. Did they actually file an appeal? Did the company? I have't seen anything, but it may have happened.
 
Second, the update states:
 
"It is important to note that McCaskill-Bond is a new federal statute that has not been reviewed by any courts (other than now Judge Silver)."
 
This is completely false. It has in fact seen the courtroom during the integration of crewmembers at Republic/Midwest integration in 2010. It also came up in court during the Delta/Northwest integration of Flight Attendants. You can read about the M-B challenges in court here:  http://www.mondaq.com/unitedstates/x/164186/Aviation/Seniority+Integration+And+The+MccaskillBond+Statute
 
Third, the update says the judge said the West has no right to participate, but didn't say we couldn't participate. This made me laugh. And then it immediately say USAPA CANNOT participate. So... it's gonna be the company, APA and the West? Really? They want you to believe that?
 
Then the next paragraph uses words like Pyrrhic, single-minded, oppress the West, mastermind, march towards irrelevance... They are good key words to get someone riled up... 🙂 They said: " USAPA took the position that only the certified bargaining agent can determine who can participate in McCaskill-Bond in an effort to prevent West participation". Maybe because that's the law? They really hang on the judges opinion that USAPA cannot participate in SLI once the APA takes over. One of USAPA's lawyers, Bill Wilder, thinks otherwise. And he is one of the actual AUTHORS of the M-B law... That means a lot in my opinion, and I'm not a lawyer. But he IS one that helped write M-B...
 
Then there are a couple of more paragraph basically re-hashing what was already said. Then they end with a question. What can you do? Answer? Send more money... And that is the bottom line behind that update... IMO
 

 

[algflyr]

Observations from the AA side.
 
The Director of Flight position came out about 10 years ago. Used to be Chief and Assistant Chief positions. Rumor/Recollection is it was done to get head Chiefs on equal footing with other corporate groups who had "Directors" of potted plants running around. To me and every other pilot, it's still a Chief and Assistant Chief position. No big deal to the cockpit.
 
I have zero personal knowledge of your new PHL Chief from AA. I will say that our LGA (LGA/JFK/EWR flying) guys are unaminous is saying that it is a loss for the AA pilots and a gain for the USAirways pilots in PHL. I haven't heard one negative statement regarding him.
 
Although not perfect, and they are still management, there seems to be a general opinion the the AA Directors of Flight and Chiefs are pretty decent. There are always exceptions, but anyone in that group or the Check Airman group seems to get exiled back to the line if they get a overzealous rep or considered a problem child by the pilots. I personally can't complain, they could have been 1000% worse during the last very contentious 10 years. They stayed out of most fights and focused on running a safe operation.
 
I think you'll like the head Chief (VP) Hale. Although he had to spit out the company line as a Corporate Officer, he has helped many guys when they need it and led the other Chiefs in doing so. Very personable guy. Last VP was a total empty suit. If you need help, tough "mierda".
 
We'll all still get the brochures and motivational pep talks to work more for less, but if you needed help in some form, especially with family, my guess is you'll get it.

 
Thanks for the input! 🙂 I also think most of our Chief pilots have usually been very helpful when it came to personal matters pilots had to deal with. It's been my experience anyway. Of course they are management and have to carry the company line, that's just the nature of the job...

 

[snapthis]

Did your lawyers go to law school?  Do they understand the difference between a court ruling and a judge's dicta?
 
I will answer for you.  Yes, they do indeed know the difference, and they certainly have their law degrees.  But they also know a good meal ticket when they see one.  And AOL is it.
 
Punch that "Donate" button and send more of your money down the toilet.
 
USAPA will continue to represent the US Airways pilots during the SLI until it is complete.  Much to the chagrin of Judge Silver, to be sure.  AOL will file for injunctive relief, and Judge Silver may actually issue that.  She will then be spanked by the Ninth Circuit and ridiculed over her total lack of knowledge of McCaskill-Bond and the RLA.  Very similar to Judge Wake.  
 
Just because USAPA loses the status of CBA does not mean it disappears from existence.  It will remain in existence until no longer needed by those it represents.  They will lose dues money, of course.  But they can certainly set up their own "Donate" button, and it will be well visited, if necessary.

I realize that Usapians think they are smarter than lawyers and arbitrators.

I also know that USAPA will no longer have anyone to represent.

Where does that leave you?

Pay your own legal bills.

Click here to donate.

 

[nevergiveup]

I realize that Usapians think they are smarter than lawyers and arbitrators.

I also know that USAPA will no longer have anyone to represent.

Where does that leave you?

Pay your own legal bills.

Click here to donate.

Are you smarter the lawyers and arbitrators? I indeed hope so! 

 

[Claxon]

I realize that Usapians think they are smarter than lawyers and arbitrators.
I also know that USAPA will no longer have anyone to represent.
Where does that leave you?
Pay your own legal bills.
Click here to donate.

Not think. Are.

 

[end_of_alpa]

 
 
I read that update and can only laugh. There are so many things I can see that are wrong and really grasping for straws. I'm certainly not a lawyer, I can only imagine how a real lawyer, such as one that actually WROTE the M-B amendment, would respond to that update. It really feels like this is a big advertisement for the West pilots to send more money...
 
So a few things I can see (And I bet any West pilot see as well) at first glance... 
 
First, they talk about appeals. I believe the deadline to file an appeal has past. Did they actually file an appeal? Did the company? I have't seen anything, but it may have happened.
 
Second, the update states:
 
"It is important to note that McCaskill-Bond is a new federal statute that has not been reviewed by any courts (other than now Judge Silver)."
 
This is completely false. It has in fact seen the courtroom during the integration of crewmembers at Republic/Midwest integration in 2010. It also came up in court during the Delta/Northwest integration of Flight Attendants. You can read about the M-B challenges in court here:  http://www.mondaq.com/unitedstates/x/164186/Aviation/Seniority+Integration+And+The+MccaskillBond+Statute
 
Third, the update says the judge said the West has no right to participate, but didn't say we couldn't participate. This made me laugh. And then it immediately say USAPA CANNOT participate. So... it's gonna be the company, APA and the West? Really? They want you to believe that?
 
Then the next paragraph uses words like Pyrrhic, single-minded, oppress the West, mastermind, march towards irrelevance... They are good key words to get someone riled up... 🙂 They said: " USAPA took the position that only the certified bargaining agent can determine who can participate in McCaskill-Bond in an effort to prevent West participation". Maybe because that's the law? They really hang on the judges opinion that USAPA cannot participate in SLI once the APA takes over. One of USAPA's lawyers, Bill Wilder, thinks otherwise. And he is one of the actual AUTHORS of the M-B law... That means a lot in my opinion, and I'm not a lawyer. But he IS one that helped write M-B...
 
Then there are a couple of more paragraph basically re-hashing what was already said. Then they end with a question. What can you do? Answer? Send more money... And that is the bottom line behind that update... IMO
 

They have 30 days after the Judges Final Order to appeal.  FRAP 4 if I remember.  
 
You re correct that there has been a few cases (that Judge Silver even referred to) that have come up...the Midwest FAs and the Frontier Pilots come to mind.
 
You are also correct about Bill Wilder.  Keep this in mind....the West pilots on here are just poking fun trying to jerk our chains at this point.  Waste of time to convince them.
 
The Judge CAN'T order us not to participate.

 

[autofixer]

They have 30 days after the Judges Final Order to appeal.  FRAP 4 if I remember.  
 
You re correct that there has been a few cases (that Judge Silver even referred to) that have come up...the Midwest FAs and the Frontier Pilots come to mind.
 
You are also correct about Bill Wilder.  Keep this in mind....the West pilots on here are just poking fun trying to jerk our chains at this point.  Waste of time to convince them.
 
The Judge CAN'T order us not to participate.

Sure one can!  They ordered us to buy health insurance. 

 

[traderjake]

Everyone knows that's not true.

 
Charlotte Domicile Update
 
Created on Friday, 22 February 2013 20:14
 
We are frustrated and tired of the two battlefronts we continually face. The management that just convinced us to give up our scope for pennies on the dollar is a worthy enough opponent alone, but we must also defend our pilots from current union leadership that has assisted management in accomplishing their goals of devaluing the provisions of our contract without nearly adequate returns. We believe the leadership of our union has effectively stonewalled our efforts and prevented the use of appropriate resources while assuring at every turn, that our leverage was undermined and ultimately squandered. We failed to attain anything close to the maximum returns for our pilots, yet we enhanced and enriched this merger deal for many others. We are not so much complaining, but just explaining what is and has been occurring behind the scenes and expressing our frustration to you. The PHL pilots seem to understand who the players were in undermining our leverage when they overwhelmingly voted out the incumbent Vice Chair just a couple weeks ago. We can also report that the CLT recall attempt was extremely harmful in our effort to get you adequate returns. It couldn’t have happened at a worse time, and we are sure that management is delighted with the actions of the pilots who were behind it.
 
We accept the fact that we will be moving forward from this point. Your 72% vote has clearly stated the will of the Charlotte pilots, but we must recognize our failures in order to not repeat these mistakes in the next steps of this merger.
 
 
Captain Bill McKee Chairman (980) 875-7644
First Officer Steve Crimi Vice Chairman (980) 875-7645
First Officer DeWitt Ingram Vice Chairman (704) 497-7246

 

[luvthe9]

Charlotte Domicile Update
 
Created on Friday, 22 February 2013 20:14
 
We are frustrated and tired of the two battlefronts we continually face. The management that just convinced us to give up our scope for pennies on the dollar is a worthy enough opponent alone, but we must also defend our pilots from current union leadership that has assisted management in accomplishing their goals of devaluing the provisions of our contract without nearly adequate returns. We believe the leadership of our union has effectively stonewalled our efforts and prevented the use of appropriate resources while assuring at every turn, that our leverage was undermined and ultimately squandered. We failed to attain anything close to the maximum returns for our pilots, yet we enhanced and enriched this merger deal for many others. We are not so much complaining, but just explaining what is and has been occurring behind the scenes and expressing our frustration to you. The PHL pilots seem to understand who the players were in undermining our leverage when they overwhelmingly voted out the incumbent Vice Chair just a couple weeks ago. We can also report that the CLT recall attempt was extremely harmful in our effort to get you adequate returns. It couldn’t have happened at a worse time, and we are sure that management is delighted with the actions of the pilots who were behind it.
 
We accept the fact that we will be moving forward from this point. Your 72% vote has clearly stated the will of the Charlotte pilots, but we must recognize our failures in order to not repeat these mistakes in the next steps of this merger.
 
 
Captain Bill McKee Chairman (980) 875-7644
First Officer Steve Crimi Vice Chairman (980) 875-7645
First Officer DeWitt Ingram Vice Chairman (704) 497-7246

. Yes, your recall attempt cost us.

 

[Piedmont1984]

I understand the reasons they gave themselves a 30 day extension since nothing gets done over the Christmas holidays.
 
But here's a thought:  Just because the new deadline is February 9th, does that mean the parties must use the entire time to be ready to begin?  Why not be ready a week early and get started?  What a concept!  I know I am the world's best procrastinator, but do the Merger Committees have to follow my example?

Send the committee a note - I did.

 

[traderjake]

. Yes, your recall attempt cost us.

 
Without the Recall you'd be going into the SLI arbitration on LOA 93 while the CLT boys fought over the $396 million they think was our money but went to AA common shareholders.
 
Thank the Recall Committee for your MOU payraise. 
 
Charlotte Domicile Update
 
Created on Friday, 22 February 2013 20:14
 
 
There have been several news articles that state how American Airlines common shareholders will get 3.6% of the new American Airlines and how that is “Unprecedented”. Normally the common shareholders are “Wiped Out” (Horton and Parkers own words). Their 3.6% equity stake came from the US Airways shareholders; the same shareholders this pilot group delivered over $10 billion worth of concessions to over 10 years. That is very telling of the amount of money left on the table. 3.6% of an $11 billion dollar deal equates to $396,000,000 that could have been returned to the US Airways pilots who were tossed a measly $40 million because that is what your leadership accepted prior to BPR input. By the way, 3.6 % equates to approximately $93,176 for each US Airways pilot. It is our belief, that is money that we could have attained if we had properly managed our leverage in negotiations and had our officers not decided to be the cheer leaders, leading the charge for Doug Parker’s merger.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

The Leonidas update is the good, bad and ugly.

I realize M&M's prefer polished turds.

I'm sure USAPA will satisfy your craving soon.

Sit tight. 😉

Hey smart guy, no real answer to my question, What attorneys actually wrote the MB sponsored legislation? Dig deep now they are closer than you know!

 

[A320 Driver]

Observations from the AA side.
 
The Director of Flight position came out about 10 years ago. Used to be Chief and Assistant Chief positions. Rumor/Recollection is it was done to get head Chiefs on equal footing with other corporate groups who had "Directors" of potted plants running around. To me and every other pilot, it's still a Chief and Assistant Chief position. No big deal to the cockpit.
 
I have zero personal knowledge of your new PHL Chief from AA. I will say that our LGA (LGA/JFK/EWR flying) guys are unaminous is saying that it is a loss for the AA pilots and a gain for the USAirways pilots in PHL. I haven't heard one negative statement regarding him.
 
Although not perfect, and they are still management, there seems to be a general opinion the the AA Directors of Flight and Chiefs are pretty decent. There are always exceptions, but anyone in that group or the Check Airman group seems to get exiled back to the line if they get a overzealous rep or considered a problem child by the pilots. I personally can't complain, they could have been 1000% worse during the last very contentious 10 years. They stayed out of most fights and focused on running a safe operation.
 
I think you'll like the head Chief (VP) Hale. Although he had to spit out the company line as a Corporate Officer, he has helped many guys when they need it and led the other Chiefs in doing so. Very personable guy. Last VP was a total empty suit. If you need help, tough "mierda".
 
We'll all still get the brochures and motivational pep talks to work more for less, but if you needed help in some form, especially with family, my guess is you'll get it.

You mean your ops guys don't hide out in bag rooms and eavesdrop on private conversations to gather dirt on the pilot group? What kind of management is that??  🙂

 

[snapthis]

 

Hey smart guy, no real answer to my question, What attorneys actually wrote the MB sponsored legislation? Dig deep now they are closer than you know!

You obviously think you have all the answers so why bother?