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2014 Pilot Discussion

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dca319 said:
Yet now you're worried about the APA.
 
If any of "you'se" can honestly even imagine the APA to be your best friends...well...a delusional state of that magnitude begs the question of what DO you people really smoke in PHX? First it was your great-first-name-basis "friend Doug" that was going to help out, then every legal proceeding was going to result in a complete west triumph, because "everyone" naturally had to agree with, sympathize and truly care about "you'se", and now the APA's going to just love and support the "spartans" as well?....Seriously?
 
Blanche Dubois: "I have always depended on the kindness of strangers." 😉
 
USA320Pilot said:
If AAL, USAPA, and APA do not reach a Protocol Agreement because the Company and/or APA require a 3-party ISL negotiation and arbitration, if required, with the West Pilot Class having their own MC and MC Counsel, which will permit the Nicolau Award to be presented to the M-B BOA, what will USAPA do?

Acquiesce to AAL and APA's position and not reach a Protocol Agreement, which could stop the M-B process from proceeding, or something else?

What will USAPA do if no Protocol Agreement is negotiated before the NMB likely designates APA the pilot's union following SCS and then USAPA no longer represents the pre-merger US Airways pilots?
 
 
 
[SIZE=10pt]In my opinion, USAPA will not be able to do anything because they will no longer represent US Airways' pilots. With no Protocol Agreement -- APA can wait until they are certified by the NMB as the the combined pilot group's CBA and implement what they believe is a fair process per US Airways' Exhibit D (APA's Draft protocol Agreement), which is three separate union Merger Committees.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]So far there has been two Protocol Agreement extensions because the parties have not reached a deal, the company has filed their Motion to Correct, and APA's draft protocol Agreement has been leaked to the pilots by the Company.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]Furthermore, the Company "[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]is asking Judge Silver to describe the West Class using the same definition in the Court’s September 18, 2013 Order granting class certification (Doc. 194), Furthermore, AOL is right when they said, "filing of this motion is a clear indication that the Company interprets Judge Silver’s order in a way that any rational person or union would: under McCaskill-Bond the West pilot class might not be entitled to a 'seat at the table,' but the Bargaining Agent, whether USAPA or APA, at its own discretion and subject to its Duty of Fair Representation, can and should delegate authority to a separate West merger committee because of the inherent conflict between East and West pilots on the issue of seniority. This inherent conflict will not disappear when the East Pilots are folded into APA."

Meanwhile, "As a result of the Company’s Rule 60 motion, the 30-day window to file an appeal has been reset and does not restart until Judge Silver makes her final ruling to the Company’s motion.."

All of this is happening while the clock towards SCS with APA replacing USAPA as our agent rapidly approaching where we will not have USAPA representing us.

I believe this could be called "checkmate." 
[/SIZE]
 
If AAL, USAPA, and APA do not reach a Protocol Agreement because the Company and/or APA require a 3-party ISL negotiation and arbitration, if required, with the West Pilot Class having their own MC and MC Counsel, which will permit the Nicolau Award to be presented to the M-B BOA, what will USAPA do? ) CHIP, Well they magically require it? WEST CLASS ? MOU violation? NMB? It will run it's course LMFAO, the AA pilots good for them get all the growth, keep their retirement, etc, etc, hell I would do the same, our little skirmish here,(sorta like keeping a civil war goin CIA stuff over here)and guess what DUI DOUG keeps his pilot costs below industry, AA enjoys unprecedented growth , EAST keeps it's attrition while the WEST enjoys their attrition! Like I said DEC 2018! In the MOU!
 
In my opinion, USAPA will not be able to do anything because they will no longer represent US Airways' pilots. With no Protocol Agreement -- APA can wait until they are certified by the NMB as the the combined pilot group's CBA and implement what they believe is a fair process per US Airways' Exhibit D (APA's Draft protocol Agreement), which is three separate union Merger Committees.
 
So far there has been two Protocol Agreement extensions because the parties have not reached a deal, the company has filed their Motion to Correct, and APA's draft protocol Agreement has been leaked to the pilots by the Company.
 
Furthermore, the Company "is asking Judge Silver to describe the West Class using the same definition in the Court’s September 18, 2013 Order granting class certification (Doc. 194), Furthermore, AOL is right when they said, "filing of this motion is a clear indication that the Company interprets Judge Silver’s order in a way that any rational person or union would: under McCaskill-Bond the West pilot class might not be entitled to a 'seat at the table,' but the Bargaining Agent, whether USAPA or APA, at its own discretion and subject to its Duty of Fair Representation, can and should delegate authority to a separate West merger committee because of the inherent conflict between East and West pilots on the issue of seniority. This inherent conflict will not disappear when the East Pilots are folded into APA."

Meanwhile, "As a result of the Company’s Rule 60 motion, the 30-day window to file an appeal has been reset and does not restart until Judge Silver makes her final ruling to the Company’s motion.."

All of this is happening while the clock towards SCS with APA replacing USAPA as our agent rapidly approaching where we will not have USAPA representing us.

I believe this could be called "checkmate." 
Stevie WONDER could see this comin , any stock tips? BTW I will ask you, do you know who the attorneys are that actually "wrote that legislation" sponsored by MB?
 
MUTATIS MUTANDIS said:
If AAL, USAPA, and APA do not reach a Protocol Agreement because the Company and/or APA require a 3-party ISL negotiation and arbitration, if required, with the West Pilot Class having their own MC and MC Counsel, which will permit the Nicolau Award to be presented to the M-B BOA, what will USAPA do? ) CHIP, Well they magically require it? WEST CLASS ? MOU violation? NMB? It will run it's course LMFAO, the AA pilots good for them get all the growth, keep their retirement, etc, etc, hell I would do the same, our little skirmish here,(sorta like keeping a civil war goin CIA stuff over here)and guess what DUI DOUG keeps his pilot costs below industry, AA enjoys unprecedented growth , EAST keeps it's attrition while the WEST enjoys their attrition! Like I said DEC 2018! In the MOU!
Or there is a 3-way arbitration, which includes the Nicolau Award. And, the result could be widebody C&Rs, an ISL that is a 3-way relative seniority list similar in scope to the Nicolau Award, and pilots are able to freely bid each other's pre-merger(s) bases with a no bump, no flush provision that is final and binding per the M-B statute.   
 
Or there is a 3-way arbitration, which includes the Nicolau Award. And, the result could be widebody C&Rs, an ISL that is a 3-way relative seniority list similar in scope to the Nicolau Award, and pilots are able to freely bid each other's pre-merger(s) bases with a no bump, no flush provision that is final and binding per the M-B statute.
What's wrong with APA's PHX-based pilots representing them self in the M-B ISL arbitration, if held?
Funny I did not read that in the MOU, what is wrong with the, TWA, EMPIRE, PIEDMONT, TRUMP, pilots for HAIR CLUB FOR MEN, at the table?
 
MUTATIS MUTANDIS said:
If AAL, USAPA, and APA do not reach a Protocol Agreement because the Company and/or APA require a 3-party ISL negotiation and arbitration, if required, with the West Pilot Class having their own MC and MC Counsel, which will permit the Nicolau Award to be presented to the M-B BOA, what will USAPA do? ) CHIP, Well they magically require it? WEST CLASS ? MOU violation? NMB? It will run it's course LMFAO, the AA pilots good for them get all the growth, keep their retirement, etc, etc, hell I would do the same, our little skirmish here,(sorta like keeping a civil war goin CIA stuff over here)and guess what DUI DOUG keeps his pilot costs below industry, AA enjoys unprecedented growth , EAST keeps it's attrition while the WEST enjoys their attrition! Like I said DEC 2018! In the MOU!
 
Yep. The only reasonable questions amount to: What's in it for the APA? One must view things from their persepective to gain any useful insight. The PHX fantasy that they'll be warmly hugged, kissed lovingly, and helped out to the max are so astounding as to make one wonder if they actually THINK out there at all.
 
USA320Pilot said:
Or there is a 3-way arbitration, which includes the Nicolau Award.....
 
What is it about the Nic that has you so much in love with it?...Why be so clearly concerned with the fine folks in PHX versus your own people? How can you have a 3-way arbitration that includes it? Unless you really just mean the west segment could wave it in the air and hope for the best.
 
MUTATIS MUTANDIS said:
Funny I did not read that in the MOU, what is wrong with the, TWA, EMPIRE, PIEDMONT, TRUMP, pilots for HAIR CLUB FOR MEN, at the table?
Ummmmm, they've already been combined into one list after their respective mergers. Well all of them accept the hair club. 🙂 What did you think was going to happen by holding the west separate/hostage?

Bean
 
Beancounter said:
Ummmmm, they've already been combined into one list after their respective mergers. Well all of them accept the hair club. 🙂 What did you think was going to happen by holding the west separate/hostage?

Bean
 
Are you sure about that Bean? I'll have you know sir, that we've a returned-from-under-his-rock-poster here who's proudly represented the Hair Club, and who's to now even speculate on how much attention and gravity he seeks to hold? 😉
 
snapthis said:
Leonidas Update

Perseverance, Unity, Courage

These are the principles which have guided the former America West pilots over the last six years, and the developments of recent weeks have shown that we are more united and determined than ever as we enter the final phase of the East/West seniority dispute.

On Friday, February 7th, the Company filed a Motion to Correct Courts Judgment Pursuant to Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 60(a) and to modify Courts order pursuant to Rule 52-b and 59(e). You can read the Rule 60 motion here. This motion asks Judge Silver to:

1. describe the class to be bound by the judgment and

2. to remove Footnote 15 so that the Order cannot be construed to prohibit the Allied Pilots Association (APA) after it has been certified as the single collective bargaining representative for all of the US Airways/American pilots from creating and delegating authority to separate merger committees to represent the disparate seniority interests of the pre-merger US Airways and pre-merger American pilots

In the first part, the Company contends that procedural rules require that the judgment in a class action should ...describe the members of the class. According to the Company, Judge Silvers order does not comply with this requirement, because it does not include and describe those whom the court finds to be class members and that there is nothing in the Judgment indicating that this case is a class action. Therefore, the Company is asking Judge Silver to describe the West Class using the same definition in the Courts September 18, 2013 Order granting class certification (Doc. 194).

In the second part, the Company is asking Judge Silver to remove Footnote 15 which states: The MOU contemplates the need for arbitration but also requires the post-merger carrier remain neutral. Under the Courts reading of McCaskill-Bond, there will be no need for arbitration because, based on explicit language in the MOU, prior to the arbitration, there will have been an election and there will be only one certified representative for all pilots. Simply put, with the carrier having promised neutrality, there will not be two parties to go to arbitration.

According to the Company, if the US Airways/American pilots seniority-integration process is not completed before the National Mediation Board certifies the APA as the single collective bargaining representative for all of the post-merger (US Airways and American) pilots, the Courts Order instructs that US Airways/American and the APA will both be responsible for ensuring that the pilot seniority lists are integrated in a lawful manner and in accordance with a lawful procedure. In order to avoid potential confusion, to provide maximum flexibility to resolve the seniority-integration dispute in a manner consistent with McCaskill-Bond and the APAs duty of fair representation to all employees, including by means of an arbitration between merger committees, and to reduce the possibility of future legal challenges to the integrated seniority list that ultimately is generated, US Airways respectfully requests that the Court delete Footnote 15 in its Order a footnote which is not essential to the Courts holding regarding the status of the West Pilots in the McCaskill-Bond process.

As a result of the Companys Rule 60 motion, the 30-day window to file an appeal has been reset and does not restart until Judge Silver makes her final ruling to the Companys motion.

We believe that the filing of this motion is a clear indication that the Company interprets Judge Silvers order in a way that any rational person or union would: under McCaskill-Bond the West pilot class might not be entitled to a seat at the table, but the Bargaining Agent, whether USAPA or APA, at its own discretion and subject to its Duty of Fair Representation, can and should delegate authority to a separate West merger committee because of the inherent conflict between East and West pilots on the issue of seniority. This inherent conflict will not disappear when the East Pilots are folded into APA.

Once the National Mediation Board certifies the APA as the exclusive bargaining agent for both pre-merger US Airways and American Airlines pilots, the APA will owe a Duty of Fair Representation to all pilots equally. It will also be the APAs and the Companys responsibility to ensure there is a fair and equitable seniority integration process as mandated by the McCaskill-Bond legislation. Creating three separate merger committees to represent the disparate seniority interests is, in our opinion, the safest method for the APA to comply with its DFR to all New American pilots, as well as comply with the McCaskill-Bond Act.

It can hardly be disputed that during the past six years, USAPA has repeatedly demonstrated hostility towards the West pilots in terms of seniority. We anticipate that APA has no interest in taking the path chosen by USAPA. In expectation of APA honoring its duty to all New American pilots, we believe the West pilots need an SLI attorney and are pleased to announce that we have been able to retain Jeff Freund to assist us in that capacity. Please join us in welcoming back Jeff.

We know the West pilots will share our exuberance over this development; the attorney who brought us the Nicolau will now be working side by side with the tremendous litigators who stopped USAPA dead in their tracks for six years. We also surmise that the West pilots have a ton of questions for these four attorneys. Since it has been a long time since our last Meet and Greet, we figured this was the opportune time for another one. So, mark your calendars for next week: Thursday, February 20th, at 10AM, at the Crowne Plaza Hotel located at the corner of 44th St. and Washington. Marty, Andy and Jen will be there, as will Jeff. The four attorneys will be available from 10AM-2PM. As always, spouses are welcome to attend.

We at Leonidas truly believe that the seniority dispute is nearing its conclusion. We also believe that the West would have never survived the USAPA onslaught were it not for the perseverance, unity and courage of this special pilot group. The past six years have been incredibly challenging and trying, but we have stuck together and most importantly, we havent changed who we are. The West work ethic is second to none. Six years of commitment along with several million dollars have saved the West from annihilation. Now, were almost there, and with your continued support we will finish this once and for all.
 
I could write a long reply to this update, but I will just hit a few high points...
 
It starts off with the motion filed by the company and tries to spin it into the company wants the Nic! I understand that though. It's like poker, when you know you have a losing hand, bluffing is always an option (and usually easier), and sometimes that can be successful against an amateur player. We've been though many mergers though, no amateurs here. I wonder what the lawyers for the West are really thinking? (rhetorical)
 
Then they get into "The East is bad!" And we are bringing back a lawyer that stopped USAPA in it's tracks! And they also used the word "exuberance". That's a big money word! Well, the East says thanks, we can now enjoy our attrition that was ours anyway thanks to you stopping us in our tracks...
 
But hey, a meet and greet is coming up soon, and that usually means free food! 🙂
 
And the last paragraph talked about perseverance and that the West's work ethic is "second to none"! I wonder if Claxon will post that Australian video again about the West's "Work ethics"? Maybe I shouldn't have went there. Anyway... What I took away from this was we are almost gonna win, just please send in more money...    
 
USA320Pilot said:
[SIZE=10pt]I believe this could be called "checkmate." [/SIZE]
 
While I believe you would prove to be just as much a joke at a chess table as elsewhere.
 
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