2014 Pilot Discussion

[snapthis]

A common theme among "spartan" umm..."leadership" (as well as Blanche Dubois/Streetcar Named Desire) is to vainly hope for others to stand up for "you'se", since you're so woefully unable to do so. 😉

Leonidas will be the surviving entity.

USAPA? Dead and buried.

I win.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Here's a stroll down memory lane reminding everyone Wye things went wrong when the west ignored its good Freund's advice.

There's Titanium level and then there's Titanic level.
 
***************************************
 

7/23/2008 … U-Turn

 

Taking Responsibility

 

“A recession is when you have to tighten your belt; depression is when you have no belt to tighten. When you've lost your trousers - you're in the airline business.” Sir Adam Thomson

Over the past few U-Turns, we’ve noticed a change in the tone of comments we’ve received. Maybe the reality of what we are up against is finally sinking in. Some accused us of taking the quotes from the Freund rebuttal out of context. We didn’t. We’ve had requests for copies of Jeff Freund’s actual East Vs West court documents. The file is too big to be directly cut and pasted. We can forward it in a scanned PDF-ZIP/Scan format. Just email us. Remember, we have no website, no budget and receive no donations. Maybe someone will paste it as an attachment on the AWAPPA web board for all to view. We would do it ourselves, but we’ve all been banned from the AWAPPA web board since May.

We have also received additional comments on what happened at Wye River from both sides. While our initial reporting appears to be correct and consistent with the latest accounts, it was incomplete. Here’s additional information from both sides.

According to our reports, on Day One of Wye River, Jeff Freund warned the West MEC that if USAPA won, the West risked losing everything. He urged reaching an agreement. He was gone on Day Two. We won’t address his motivation for leaving.

As Jeff Freund observed in his rebuttal to the East MEC lawsuit, the NIC was not in stone. And the loss of ALPA put it in real trouble. At least ALPA had the obligation, through the ALPA Merger Policy, to attempt to get the company to use the NIC Award.

ALPA’s lawyers knew the list was negotiable, but they never told either rank and file. We attended last summer’s ALPA road shows in PHX, starring Paul Rice and a cast of ALPA attorneys. Did ALPA ever hint that the NIC was negotiable? We believe it was for fear of fanning the flames and drawing more support for USAPA that Herndon kept that from us. They did tell all the Wye River attendees the reality. One side listened, the other didn’t.

In last summer’s East Vs West lawsuit, the East used ALPA DUES MONEY and an ALPA-Approved attorney, Roland Wilder, to pursue the case. As far as we can determine, we had to use our own Merger Fund money to defend ourselves. Thanks for choosing sides, ALPA! In the likely event that the NIC will be trashed in a single contract, it will be our own voluntary contributions that will have to be raised for a DFR lawsuit. USAPA expects it, so we shouldn’t disappoint them. This could be an extremely costly effort that could drag on for years. U-Turn is not discouraging filing a DFR, and we need closure.

Jeff Freund is a top-notch lawyer. We have no doubt that he told our MEC the truth about how negotiable the NIC really was. The question is: why didn’t CJ, Bendett, et al, listen? We figure that they either didn’t believe him or after all their hairy-chested resolutions and hotlines, they were afraid to back down. What good are attorneys if you don’t take their advice?

There is one other possibility. We mentioned it in a previous U-Turn. Our union leaders believed that the USAPA vote would be close (razor’s edge, to quote one of them) and that it was worth holding out and rolling the dice, figuring that if ALPA survived, so would the NIC. Too bad ALPA didn’t explain the importance of the 30% of East pilots who refused to participate in the Wilson Polling.

We now have a better picture what the East MEC had on the table: an 8 year fence, furloughs by longevity (LOS), MDA time not counting for longevity, Dave O’Dell having 400 pilots below him, and the Nic surviving as THE LIST. Yes, the East offered the NIC. They just wanted to protect their retirement attrition, which stalled by the change in Age-60. Looking back, that offer must look like a home run to any West pilot right now, but last February the EAST MEC and ALPA couldn’t get to first base with it.

Our former MEC and our union leadership played a very high stakes game of poker by not dealing at Wye River. Freund was right, we were risking everything…..and right now, it looks like we lost. They need to take responsibility for that.

U-Turn

 

 

[end_of_alpa]

Delta Capt, Wiggy is not impressed with the ethics of U-saps...

"So, R-57, just to set things straight, let me get your own personal position on a couple of issues, such as the 3rd lister controversy, and directly related to that...whether the West's expectations should include the benefits the east has enjoyed the last 7 years...I want to know what your personal opinion is, R, not what you "think" will happen, not what the arbitrators will do...but what you think "ought" to happen...I'm calling on you to make a personal, ethical judgement on these matters, if you're capable...you too PT.

Now, since I fully expect you to evade that question, and I suspect PT doesn't have the guts to answer that question, I will appeal to any and all Easters out there to, if not disown your spokesman PT, to at least repudiate the efforts of he and R-57 to add insult to injury with this 3rd lister/West expectations controversy....Anybody?"


Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleTurtle
"Principle. Sure. You don't have a clue of the facts of what you are talking about, but you write volumes of encyclopedic posts because of your principles. Why don't you post ad nauseam about Enron, gays in Sochi, acid rain, global warming, and baby seal furs?"

WIGGY
"It is laughable that you guys seem to think this is rocket science....I know enough to have an informed opinion, and way more than enough to debate the ethical aspects with the likes of you. You see, I don't give a rat's a$$ whether you're a third lister or not, you have no scruples, and that's all I need to know....You take great amusement in repeatedly taunting fellow pilots you may have to work with one day, and "ad nauseum" goading seems to be your strong suit, your specialty, and is the sum total of what you contribute to the discussion about this controversy. You could care less about hosing a whole group of pilots you don't even know...And it's not even the Nic with you, it's your cynically motivated personal opinion that the third listers should go above the bottom west pilots. I'd wager your APC membership that you're in an extreme minority in holding that view among your peers, whomever they may be. It should give you pause to wonder why that may be the case...

In fact, I'd wager you don't express these opinions at all out on the line, it is only when you get behind a computer screen that your greed-motivated arguments come out...when you lose your grounding in ethical reality...

I gave you a chance to respond within the context of (somewhat) good-natured humor...You could have responded. "I can make a cynical technical argument that the 3rd listers should be merged by relative position with the west, but I don't really believe it, I do it to get a rise out of the west, and to make a point".

What that point would be no one knows, other than to add insult to injury..."

Sounds like "Delta Pilot" ALPA logic to me.  Enough said.
 
Just saying.  
 
Oh, and for the record, AMR denies new planes to Envoy(AMR Eagle) because the new contract voted down.  Looks like Republic going to get them.  Bye, bye Envoy/ALPA.
 
(I'm not wishing unemployment it's just business..... evidently).
 
Just saying.

 

[EastUS1]

Just add him to the list of anybody who disagrees with the East is a Westie or related to Nicolau or to Judge Wake. 😉

 
Huh? I've no reason to doubt him a Delta. I'm just not much in the way of overly awed by that, as "you'se" so clearly are, and perhaps understandably, in "you'se" case.

 

[dca319]

As we have no protocol agreement in place with the APA, what happens if the NMB rules in the next few weeks?

 

[end_of_alpa]

Here's a stroll down memory lane reminding everyone Wye things went wrong when the west ignored its good Freund's advice.

There's Titanium level and then there's Titanic level.
 
***************************************
 

7/23/2008 … U-Turn

 

Taking Responsibility

 

“A recession is when you have to tighten your belt; depression is when you have no belt to tighten. When you've lost your trousers - you're in the airline business.” Sir Adam Thomson

Over the past few U-Turns, we’ve noticed a change in the tone of comments we’ve received. Maybe the reality of what we are up against is finally sinking in. Some accused us of taking the quotes from the Freund rebuttal out of context. We didn’t. We’ve had requests for copies of Jeff Freund’s actual East Vs West court documents. The file is too big to be directly cut and pasted. We can forward it in a scanned PDF-ZIP/Scan format. Just email us. Remember, we have no website, no budget and receive no donations. Maybe someone will paste it as an attachment on the AWAPPA web board for all to view. We would do it ourselves, but we’ve all been banned from the AWAPPA web board since May.

We have also received additional comments on what happened at Wye River from both sides. While our initial reporting appears to be correct and consistent with the latest accounts, it was incomplete. Here’s additional information from both sides.

According to our reports, on Day One of Wye River, Jeff Freund warned the West MEC that if USAPA won, the West risked losing everything. He urged reaching an agreement. He was gone on Day Two. We won’t address his motivation for leaving.

As Jeff Freund observed in his rebuttal to the East MEC lawsuit, the NIC was not in stone. And the loss of ALPA put it in real trouble. At least ALPA had the obligation, through the ALPA Merger Policy, to attempt to get the company to use the NIC Award.

ALPA’s lawyers knew the list was negotiable, but they never told either rank and file. We attended last summer’s ALPA road shows in PHX, starring Paul Rice and a cast of ALPA attorneys. Did ALPA ever hint that the NIC was negotiable? We believe it was for fear of fanning the flames and drawing more support for USAPA that Herndon kept that from us. They did tell all the Wye River attendees the reality. One side listened, the other didn’t.

In last summer’s East Vs West lawsuit, the East used ALPA DUES MONEY and an ALPA-Approved attorney, Roland Wilder, to pursue the case. As far as we can determine, we had to use our own Merger Fund money to defend ourselves. Thanks for choosing sides, ALPA! In the likely event that the NIC will be trashed in a single contract, it will be our own voluntary contributions that will have to be raised for a DFR lawsuit. USAPA expects it, so we shouldn’t disappoint them. This could be an extremely costly effort that could drag on for years. U-Turn is not discouraging filing a DFR, and we need closure.

Jeff Freund is a top-notch lawyer. We have no doubt that he told our MEC the truth about how negotiable the NIC really was. The question is: why didn’t CJ, Bendett, et al, listen? We figure that they either didn’t believe him or after all their hairy-chested resolutions and hotlines, they were afraid to back down. What good are attorneys if you don’t take their advice?

There is one other possibility. We mentioned it in a previous U-Turn. Our union leaders believed that the USAPA vote would be close (razor’s edge, to quote one of them) and that it was worth holding out and rolling the dice, figuring that if ALPA survived, so would the NIC. Too bad ALPA didn’t explain the importance of the 30% of East pilots who refused to participate in the Wilson Polling.

We now have a better picture what the East MEC had on the table: an 8 year fence, furloughs by longevity (LOS), MDA time not counting for longevity, Dave O’Dell having 400 pilots below him, and the Nic surviving as THE LIST. Yes, the East offered the NIC. They just wanted to protect their retirement attrition, which stalled by the change in Age-60. Looking back, that offer must look like a home run to any West pilot right now, but last February the EAST MEC and ALPA couldn’t get to first base with it.

Our former MEC and our union leadership played a very high stakes game of poker by not dealing at Wye River. Freund was right, we were risking everything…..and right now, it looks like we lost. They need to take responsibility for that.

U-Turn

 

I know who wrote U-turn and still have him on my speed dial (although I haven't spoke with him for years).  If he were still flying in PHX today he would probably be dead from the numerous West "blanket parties" thrown upon him years ago.  (Get it.....flying today but dead years ago.  Just trying to use West logic here.)

 

[EastUS1]

As we have no protocol agreement in place with the APA, what happens if the NMB rules in the next few weeks?

 
Unquestionable catastrophe of unimaginable proportions would immediately result:
 
http://io9.com/5928274/the-universe-could-tear-itself-apart-sooner-than-anyone-believed

 

[snapthis]

I know who wrote U-turn and still have him on my speed dial (although I haven't spoke with him for years).  If he were still flying in PHX today he would probably be dead from the numerous West "blanket parties" thrown upon him years ago.  (Get it.....flying today but dead years ago.  Just trying to use West logic here.)

Blanket party? Who needs a blanket when highs have been in the 80's.....

Keep shoveling and stay warm. 😉

 

[dca319]

 
Unquestionable catastrophe of unimaginable proportions would immediately result:
 
http://io9.com/5928274/the-universe-could-tear-itself-apart-sooner-than-anyone-believed

Oblivious to the end.  History repeating itself.  Can't wait to here the question, "How'd this happen and who is to blame?"    As ALPA is gone, we'll probably go with Hummel selling us out.

 

[Bill Brasky]

Blanket party? Who needs a blanket when highs have been in the 80's.....

Keep shoveling and stay warm. 😉

Glad you like it.....you're gonna be there a while....

 

[dca319]

Glad you like it.....you're gonna be there a while....

Again, oblivious.

 

[Bill Brasky]

As we have no protocol agreement in place with the APA, what happens if the NMB rules in the next few weeks?

If this goes to arbitration without a protocol agreement, there would still be only two parties, 3 if you include the company.  They would be a group representing former US Airways pilots and a group representing APA pilots.  The west is NOT entitled to separate representation, per Judge Silver's order.
 
Get used to it.  Not having an agreement, or even getting USAPA out if the picture, won't change that.  Even if that IS the holdup, it won't matter, because the Judge already ruled that the west is NOT ENTITLED to be represented on its own.

 

[Bill Brasky]

Again, oblivious.

Not oblivious to liars, such as yourself.

 

[dca319]

If this goes to arbitration without a protocol agreement, there would still be only two parties, 3 if you include the company.  They would be a group representing former US Airways pilots and a group representing APA pilots.  The west is NOT entitled to separate representation, per Judge Silver's order.
 
Get used to it.  Not having an agreement, or even getting USAPA out if the picture, won't change that.  Even if that IS the holdup, it won't matter, because the Judge already ruled that the west is NOT ENTITLED to be represented on its own.

That's not the direction the APA seems to be taking.  They want that footnote removed to make the west's seat iron-clad, but I don't think it'll keep them from giving the west a seat if Silver doesn't change it.
 
Who wants to bet there will be another extension coming up in the near future?  What's the alternative to that?  System board?  That's take a good 3 months to come back and by then the NMB would have most assuredly rules the APA as CBA.  The APA will then put the west at the table and the mediators will make our lists with the west's input.
 
It looks as if USAPA is a couple moves from being checkmated.  They've no way to stop this and the APA will waive the 60 days and go right into arbitration.

 

[snapthis]

Again, oblivious.

Yep...Brasky is clueless.

Maybe we should let him be our special guest on the 20th so he'd have a better understanding of the law and the fact that the East/ USAPA will not be making decisions for me or any other West pilot.