2014 Pilot Discussion

[Beancounter]

 
I can't think of an arbitration that went the way anyone expected.  

Just by reading the ALPA merger policy and financial reports I knew it wasn't going to be DOH.  I also told a pilot prior to the arbitration coming out that the furloughs would most likely go to the bottom.  Not because I thought it was fair, but because of how everything was set up.  You are right in that I didn't predict 500 at the top and a 15yr guy below a 2yr guy.  That I didn't expect.
 
Well, I've got to go make dinner, wife's at a game.  I'll check back later to see how many negative points I got.   
 
Bean

 

[Claxon]

The career expectations of a pilot at a soon to liquadate company are far less than a pilot at a soon to enter bankruptcy company.  You can choose to view the past however you want, that's your choice.  It was what it was, but it's in the past now.  Neither of us, if we'd stayed on our own would be where we are now if it hadn't been for the first merger.  Oh yeah, I'll add he's wrong, I've read it.  He should stick to arbitration and not accounting 🙂
 
Bean

Beano (tm)
 
Read the link I provided.  You brought up the past, 
 
Your quote;
 
"That arbitration was based on career expectations and the east was on the verge of liquadation."  (yes you spelled it wrong)
 
You say it did matter then, but it does not now and it matters now but not then. 
 
I realize it is the end of the month but, come back when you have the ability to exert common sense to the subject matter you are trying to debate.

 

[Claxon]

Well, I've got to go make dinner, wife's at a game.  I'll check back later to see how many negative points I got.   
 
Bean

Yes of course, understand, we are all getting our wife's dinner ready now.  Beano (tm),  please make sure you wash the clothes, vacuum the floor and scrub the kitchen tile.  Make sure you wear your kneepads.  We also are up all night worrying about our negative points.  (sarcasm)
 
"You can't make this stuff up."
EastUS1

 

[Phoenix]

Just by reading the ALPA merger policy and financial reports I knew it wasn't going to be DOH.  I also told a pilot prior to the arbitration coming out that the furloughs would most likely go to the bottom.  Not because I thought it was fair, but because of how everything was set up.  You are right in that I didn't predict 500 at the top and a 15yr guy below a 2yr guy.  That I didn't expect.
 
Well, I've got to go make dinner, wife's at a game.  I'll check back later to see how many negative points I got.   
 
Bean

 
 
Yeah, the point is it never goes as expected.  

 

[usabusdriver]

. Same here, I think they could get slammed in arbitration, can't believe the APA would put their pilots in this high risk position. 

 
 

 
Uh, but why would you be concerned about them taking on risk in arbitration?

 

[Beancounter]

Beano (tm)
 
Read the link I provided.  You brought up the past, 
 
Your quote;
 
"That arbitration was based on career expectations and the east was on the verge of liquadation."  (yes you spelled it wrong)
 
You say it did matter then, but it does not now and it matters now but not then. 
 
I realize it is the end of the month but, come back when you have the ability to exert common sense to the subject matter you are trying to debate.

I don't know, I re-read it reeaaaallllllyyyyy sssslllllooowwwwlllllyyyyy and it still made sense.  Maybe you should try doing the same 🙂
 

Yes of course, understand, we are all getting our wife's dinner ready now.  Beano (tm),  please make sure you wash the clothes, vacuum the floor and scrub the kitchen tile.  Make sure you wear your kneepads.  We also are up all night worrying about our negative points.  (sarcasm)
 
"You can't make this stuff up."
EastUS1

Well, I wasn't gone too long since she had already made it and I just had to reheat it.  Try reading it again, I'm not making her dinner.  Not that I havn't made dinner in the past or would have a problem doing so again, or cleaning the house for that matter.  Did you go straight from your mom doing your clothes to your wife doing them?
 
Bean

 

[Beancounter]

 

 
 

 
Uh, but why would you be concerned about them taking on risk in arbitration?
 

Same reason that they use the threat of putting third listers above junior west pilots, to get what they want.
 
Bean

 

[Claxon]

I don't know, I re-read it reeaaaallllllyyyyy sssslllllooowwwwlllllyyyyy and it still made sense.  Maybe you should try doing the same 🙂
 
Well, I wasn't gone too long since she had already made it and I just had to reheat it.  Try reading it again, I'm not making her dinner.  Not that I havn't made dinner in the past or would have a problem doing so again, or cleaning the house for that matter.  Did you go straight from your mom doing your clothes to your wife doing them?
 
Bean

Yes, you understand.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-EZf56AfYc

 

[Beancounter]

Yes, you understand.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-EZf56AfYc

C'mon Claxon, I throw out a friendly jab and you get all personal?
 
Bean

 

[traderjake]

That will be APA's choice DOH with C&R 's and a long fence to protect their flying or roll the dice. I know which one I would chose.

 
And the rest of the world knows which APA would choose.
 
The USAPA MC knows DOH is DOA.

 

[767one]

Bob

Good thing it's not a Ukrainian tractor. Might be hard to get parts soon 🙂

'84

Yep, that Ukrainian situation is getting uglier by the day.

 

[nevergiveup]

 
And the rest of the world knows which APA would choose.
 
The USAPA MC knows DOH is DOA.

You may be right, but the AA pilots on the jump seat that want DOH are a dime a dozen. We will know in 9 days or 2 years....maybe.

 

[PullUp]

 
No,not kidding..
 
That's the argument an arbitrator heard with HP/US.
 
What do you do with a 15yr TWA guy that was hired West? Should he go behind an East pilot hired in 1999 and furloughed in 2002 who returned in 2007?

Where was he when the airline merged? You play your quarter, you takes your chances.

 

[snapthis]

Where was he when the airline merged? You play your quarter, you takes your chances.

I'm sure that some who oppose arbitration don't want to revisit previous ones. There may be an affirmation of the work of the previous arbitrator and pilot neutrals. Each merger presents it's own set of factors.
 
For example, from the Nicolau arbitration:

The Background
As in many other mergers, the airlines differ in size, with US Airways substantially larger than America West. The former, a product of previous mergers over the course of a number of years, is also much older, which consequently reflects a wide disparity in pilot dates of hire as between the two airlines. Additionally, US Airways has a substantial international presence in which planes not in America West's fleet are flown. However, in most categories, America West's pay scales are higher. Beyond this, at the time of the merger announcement, US Airways had a significant number of pilots on furlough while America West had none. Moreover, the financial future of US Airways was not comparable to or as bright as that of America West.

These factors, as could be predicted, led to great differences in the Parties' concepts of a fair and equitable merger. In basic outline, US Airways argued for a Date of Hire list, adjusted for Length of Service, subject to certain seven-year conditions and restrictions, a model that placed the most senior America West pilot far down the seniority list and merged a number of furloughed US Airways pilots above active pilots at America West. In contrast, America West, relying heavily on its view of the pre-merger financial picture at US Airways, urged a series of ratios that gave little weight to the longer service of pilots at US Air. Despite indications by the Board that both approaches created difficulties if the goal was a fair and equitable integration, those positions were not fundamentally changed.

Bottom line, each side put it's best arguments out there for the panel to weigh which includes arguments made by your side made about age and the pilot hired earlier. The West was hiring, Airways had a third of pilots on furlough.

This time around we are pairing up with an airline which is in better shape than Airways in 2005. A different set of circumstances which a future arbitration will consider.

 

[Claxon]

The list of those who steered the west onto the rocks after they did not listen to Jeff Freund:
Eric Ferguson,Robert Koontz, Mark C Doyal, Bobby Baldock.
Baldocks' personal connection to Wake misfired. The rest were in the dark about labor law.