2014 Pilot Discussion

[Keroseneuser]

Snapthis,
 
Putting all our east and west crap aside,  you do realize that the APA's sole job right now is to put as many Usairways pilots below their pilots as they possibly can (east and west).    If you have not figured out that basic item of merger 101 yet then you are in for a rude awakening in the near future. 
 
Mergers are what they are,  always have been, always will be.
 
EVERYTHING the APA does until the SLI is decided is geared to that one goal.   Contract and all other considerations are secondary to them obtaining the best possible positioning of their pilots.
 
The east guys have seen this several times and are used to it.  If you are expecting APA to be your savior in this process you are not looking at reality.
 
Pilots are pilots and unions are unions.      

 

[Phoenix]

..... She can only ALLOW OR DENY THE FOUR CLAIMS AS PART OF THE COMPLAINT!....

 
 
Bingo.  And that is what she did ORDER, nothing more.   Her dicta predicting the future about USAPA's rights was merely a consolation kazoo to make noise from the peanut gallery... for herself and the losing litigant.    If Marty appeals to the 9th to get his plastic kazoo confirmed, the 9th will confirm it is made of plastic.... a very expensive plastic kazoo, indeed.  
 
The $675 tie is a much more economical faux party favor.  

 

[Phoenix]

Snapthis,
 
Putting all our east and west crap aside,  you do realize that the APA's sole job right now is to put as many Usairways pilots below their pilots as they possibly can (east and west).    If you have not figured out that basic item of merger 101 yet then you are in for a rude awakening in the near future. 
 
Mergers are what they are,  always have been, always will be.
 
EVERYTHING the APA does until the SLI is decided is geared to that one goal.   Contract and all other considerations are secondary to them obtaining the best possible positioning of their pilots.
 
The east guys have seen this several times and are used to it.  If you are expecting APA to be your savior in this process you are not looking at reality.
 
Pilots are pilots and unions are unions.      

 
 
He knows he will never get to enjoy the lottery he thinks he won, and as a consolation he would gladly be furloughed for ten years if he could just see the East pilots suffer the harm he thinks was perpetrated against him.  
 
Snap is the proverbial "Nose" that taunts his "Face" to spite itself.  

 

[snapthis]

He knows he will never get to enjoy the lottery he thinks he won, and as a consolation he would gladly be furloughed for ten years if he could just see the East pilots suffer the harm he thinks was perpetrated against him.  
 
Snap is the proverbial "Nose" that taunts his "Face" to spite itself.

Was his question for you or me? If I need your help....strike that. I don't.

 

[traderjake]

The "Chip" on Dan's shoulder (both figuratively and literally) explain the pressure he feels on loss of dignity and his ALPA history.  His father got to wear his ALPA pin to the end.  Not so Chip or Dan.  The burden of the loss is too great to BARE!  (This was and is mean't as a play on words for the visually impaired.)

 
You could not be more wrong.
 
I never liked ALPA. 
 
USAPA is worse.

 

[algflyr]

My bet is that they are still trying to figure this whole thing out internally. I wouldn't be surprised for them to come out shortly with a protocol agreement and a combined seniority list that they almost agree on. Lawsuits are dropped and we move forward. Maybe the APA and USAPA have a combined list that only has a few minor disagreements contained within. Then they go to arbitration saying we both agree on 99% of the list, we just need you to decide these last few items. The arbitrators decide those and put out a list. Since the list was the product of arbitration, no side can really appeal anything and no DFR anywhere... Just my guess...

 

[snapthis]

Snapthis,
 
Putting all our east and west crap aside,  you do realize that the APA's sole job right now is to put as many Usairways pilots below their pilots as they possibly can (east and west).    If you have not figured out that basic item of merger 101 yet then you are in for a rude awakening in the near future. 
 
Mergers are what they are,  always have been, always will be.
 
EVERYTHING the APA does until the SLI is decided is geared to that one goal.   Contract and all other considerations are secondary to them obtaining the best possible positioning of their pilots.
 
The east guys have seen this several times and are used to it.  If you are expecting APA to be your savior in this process you are not looking at reality.
 
Pilots are pilots and unions are unions.

Good ol Phoenix thinks that I am holding a lottery ticket. Ask any West pilot if they think they won the lottery with the disaster in 2005. It's more like a reversal of circumstances. We go from hiring and growth to what the East brought........ Furloughs and stagnation.

USAPA has done exactly to the West pilots what you fear the APA will do to all of us. You talk with any West pilot and you'll get an answer along the lines of it can't get any worse.

 

[algflyr]

Hopefully, we won't need any. If the brain trust at USAPA has any sense, they will show up with the two seniority lists that are currently in use...one East, one West. There is no NIC list to present. It has no basis in fact and no contract to perpetuate it's use. Judge Silver has stated repeatedly that is does not have to be used. Let the arbitrators sort it out. If my information is correct, that is all they really need. It is likely they will slot by equipment so expect the 777 and A330s slotted together, then the 767s, then the 757s, so on and so forth.
 
And we will ALL live unhappily ever after (the sign of a "good" SLI) B)

 
The part I underlined above is the plain fact that they want to ignore...
 
As far as slotting by equipment, that may prove to be difficult. I think you will find due to AA's "qualify in turn" policy, the lists will be a little mixed up. There are a lot of our FO's on all equipment that could easily be a very senior Captain, but choose to remain an FO for quality of life. I don't think you will find that on the AA side. So we have  FO's on the A-320, that could easily hold 767 Captain. How do you slot that pilot? 

 

[nevergiveup]

Good ol Phoenix thinks that I am holding a lottery ticket. Ask any West pilot if they think they won the lottery with the disaster in 2005. It's more like a reversal of circumstances. We go from hiring and growth to what the East brought........ Furloughs and stagnation.

USAPA has done exactly to the West pilots what you fear the APA will do to all of us. You talk with any West pilot and you'll get an answer along the lines of it can't get any worse.

Every airline has hiring and growth at some point. It also stops and some point, then hopefully picks up again. Doug was your boss and still is today. I believe he is the one that decides on growth, not USAPA. 

 

[traderjake]

How do you slot that pilot? 

 
The positions are slotted, not the actual pilots holding those positions.
 
If American had 100 747 Captain positions the top 100 pilots on the Amercan seniority list would go to the top of the combined list regardless of the actual position those 100 pilots hold.

 

[A320 Driver]

 
The part I underlined above is the plain fact that they want to ignore...
 
As far as slotting by equipment, that may prove to be difficult. I think you will find due to AA's "qualify in turn" policy, the lists will be a little mixed up. There are a lot of our FO's on all equipment that could easily be a very senior Captain, but choose to remain an FO for quality of life. I don't think you will find that on the AA side. So we have  FO's on the A-320, that could easily hold 767 Captain. How do you slot that pilot? 

This pains me, but what I read was something similar to what Jake said. Take the total pilot staff of the AA 777s and the total pilot staff of the A330s and slot them in. Then go to the 767s and do the same thing. West guys start to come in with the 757s (what they brought to the party and I KNOW I will get arguments on that). It is heavily weighted to economics.

 

[snapthis]

Every airline has hiring and growth at some point. It also stops and some point, then hopefully picks up again. Doug was your boss and still is today. I believe he is the one that decides on growth, not USAPA.

It looks like it's headed that way:

Silver Airways offers $12,000 bonus to new first officers
By Terry Maxon
tmaxon@dallasnews.com
12:47 pm on April 3, 2014
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2014/04/silver-airways-offers-12000-bonus-to-new-first-officers.html/

Parker most likely was warned by Bulhogg that the East would burn this place down if not pacified.

Doug can create the world's largest airline but history shows he's lacking merging skills due to certain weaknesses.
 
Mainly leadership.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Good ol Phoenix thinks that I am holding a lottery ticket. Ask any West pilot if they think they won the lottery with the disaster in 2005. It's more like a reversal of circumstances. We go from hiring and growth to what the East brought........ Furloughs and stagnation.

USAPA has done exactly to the West pilots what you fear the APA will do to all of us. You talk with any West pilot and you'll get an answer along the lines of it can't get any worse.

You would have gotten the appropriate advancement recognizing our time in service has the same value as yours.  You lost that AWA pilots time is more valuable.  Looking forward to watching you Westicles rot in PHX.  Three losses in PHX courts and still trying to be something you'll never be.  
 
Just wait until the NMB and the DC circuit weigh in.  Case law doesn't favor the APA and the company.  I'm waiting for my next gloating event!

 

[end_of_alpa]

It looks like it's headed that way:

Silver Airways offers $12,000 bonus to new first officers
By Terry Maxon
tmaxon@dallasnews.com
12:47 pm on April 3, 2014
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2014/04/silver-airways-offers-12000-bonus-to-new-first-officers.html/

Parker most likely was warned by Bulhogg that the East would burn this place down if not pacified.

Doug can create the world's largest airline but history shows he's lacking merging skills due to certain weaknesses.
 
Mainly leadership.

Sounds like West pilots.... lack leadership.  You are peas in a pod.

 

[Keroseneuser]

Snap,
 
I agree,  you guys are in a bad spot.   I think the major mistake the west made was years ago as one of your former reps spoke about in that letter.    Had the west accepted the 8 year fence, which would have been basically meaningless once the age 65 changed,  but that was not known at the time,  the west would currently be fence free and bidding via the NIC with widebody positions and no base restrictions.
 
As it stands now,  I am not surprised that the APA seems to be leaning toward wanting the west as their own entity in this process.    That would greatly increase the probability that they could exclude the west from any widebody positions for the forseeable future.  After all the west has none.   It could also give them more traction on base fences as well.    Remember everything the APA is doing now is designed for only one purpose, further the goals of placing AA pilots above as many Airways pilots as possible.
 
So yes, I agree you are in a bad spot right now.  Where we disagree is the fact that you think it cannot get any worse.    My personal feeling is that you were royally screwed by AOL very early on.   You were sold a bill of goods about the NIC that the T/A as it was written did not back up.   If you could have forced the NIC it would be in place today after 9 years of legal battles.  It is not and now with this merger I have a feeling that the APA has plans to exploit the mistakes made by the AOL leadership so many years ago.    For what its worth, the APA is going to attempt to exploit every mistake that usapa made over the years too.
 
My feeling is the best the west can hope for now is 3 lists using the bases and equipment that we all had in December 2013 as the starting point.   That is probably going to mean no widebodys and limited bases for the west.     Time will tell if my feeling is correct.
 
Also I think that usapa coming to the table with anything other than a separate east and west list as it appeared dec 2013 would be a mistake,  that would open them up to all kinds of MOU issues in my opinion and leave usairways (east and west) in a much worse position SLI wise when the smoke clears.    But I am one vote and other than meaningless posts on a webboard such as this I have next to zero effect on what is occurring in the union politics.
 
Guess we will have all these answers in 18 to 36 months or so.