2014 Pilot Discussion

[A320 Driver]

USAPA is now dead in the water and APA will likely have nothing to do with our dishonest union until after SCS. 

According to APA, “USAPA's abject failure to communicate these facts erodes the very foundation of trust necessary for any further negotiations. It is now apparent to us, just as it was to Judge Silver in the Addington v. USAPA DFR decision, that USAPA is using these tactics, including reneging on its bargain under the MOU and litigating the McCaskill-Bond process in court, with the express goal of delaying the NMB single-carrier finding.”

It’s now clear APA intends to wait for SCS and Judge Howell’s decision before moving forward because of USAPA’s latest dishonest actions including to attempt to violate the pilot’s contract again. And, APA’s Seniority Integration Update: The Facts, will certainly influence the NMB and District Court.

What I just don’t get is how East pilots continue to support a group of people who lack transparency, mislead others, and are dishonest. I can’t do that even if it results in personal financial loss and pain. Unfortunately, many of our colleagues do not feel the same way.

Moreover, ALPA’s advisors, legal team, E&FA Department, and professional negotiators are salaried employees. USAPA’s advisors are contractors who have a retainer and charge billable hours. USAPA’s advisors only get paid if they create a legal strategy, whether it violates judicial estoppel or not, that the BPR desires or the advisors will not get paid. Therefore, I have little faith in USAPA’s advisors who obviously have their own motive. 

Little man syndrome on crack...

 

[prechilill]

USAPA is now dead in the water and APA will likely have nothing to do with our dishonest union until after SCS. 

According to APA, “USAPA's abject failure to communicate these facts erodes the very foundation of trust necessary for any further negotiations. It is now apparent to us, just as it was to Judge Silver in the Addington v. USAPA DFR decision, that USAPA is using these tactics, including reneging on its bargain under the MOU and litigating the McCaskill-Bond process in court, with the express goal of delaying the NMB single-carrier finding.”

It’s now clear APA intends to wait for SCS and Judge Howell’s decision before moving forward because of USAPA’s latest dishonest actions including to attempt to violate the pilot’s contract again. And, APA’s Seniority Integration Update: The Facts, will certainly influence the NMB and District Court.

What I just don’t get is how East pilots continue to support a group of people who lack transparency, mislead others, and are dishonest. I can’t do that even if it results in personal financial loss and pain. Unfortunately, many of our colleagues do not feel the same way.

Moreover, ALPA’s advisors, legal team, E&FA Department, and professional negotiators are salaried employees. USAPA’s advisors are contractors who have a retainer and charge billable hours. USAPA’s advisors only get paid if they create a legal strategy, whether it violates judicial estoppel or not, that the BPR desires or the advisors will not get paid. Therefore, I have little faith in USAPA’s advisors who obviously have their own motive. 

Great points, Chip.  You clearly have a level of understanding far greater than your east peers.

 

[luvthe9]

Little man syndrome on crack...

Little man with bad hair plugs syndrome on crack.

 

[luvthe9]

Great points, Chip.  You clearly have a level of understanding far greater than your east peers.

You are really making yourself look stupid..........enjoy the "island" you will be on it for quite awhile.


" We have learned that when Captain Munn is involved, be very afraid, if he’s on your side of the issue. "

 

[mrbreeze]

 
 
 
Note to self: In any alternate universe where USA320's part of any mission; ensure that he's placed at least 10 miles in front of the rest of the flight, so's to allow him the chance to "catch up",...or at least productively serve as a decoy/target....

10 miles???
 
Isn't that a little to close to a pilot who has a problem figuring out his current position?
breeze

 

[algflyr]

 Guys throwing out stuff like 5-10 year fences, DOH, ect, (including me) should consider the numbers effects. Does it screw you guys? Does it screw us? I pointed out one problem with delaying. . The facts are that it could screw the AA pilots with one tactic I mentioned. I don't know the exact numbers, but I'd bet that a 5 year fence with DOH screws the AA guys. If someone disagrees, please correct me.

 
Mach85,
 
While I certainly don't have the numbers for AA, I do have them for US. The numbers posted on APC seem to reflect a close approximation for US, so I'm assuming they are somewhere in the ballpark for AA.
 
The question becomes what will the list look like in 5-10 years once the retirements are removed. I'm sure they will very diligently dissect this aspect and see exactly what effect something like a DOH merge would have on the list after the fences come down.
 
Without having the EXACT numbers, I will use the numbers available and can certainly give it an educated guess... And I will use a 8 year fence (starting in Jan. 2014, ending in Dec. 2021) as an example using the retirement numbers found on APC for AA.
 
US currently has 4,203 pilots flying the line. Of those 1,902 are Captain positions.
 
I'm estimating AA has around 9,000 line pilots with around 4,000 Captain positions. Probably less than 4,000 due to the large number of widebodies requiring an IRO. But I'll stick with nice round numbers.
 
APC lists US retirements from 2014 through 2021 as 1,831. That's almost 50% of our group. 
 
AA retirements for the same period is listed as 2,353. 
 
So in 2021 when the fence comes down, Basically all our current FO's will be a Captain already. And most of our FO's in 2021 will have be hired after the fence went up, meaning they will all be junior to ALL your current pilots at AA. They pose no threat to current seniority on your property.
 
For AA in 2021, the better part of half of your Captain positions will have been filled with current AA FO's. And your remaining FO's will most likely be senior to all our FO's at that time. So the rest of your Captain positions will mostly go to current AA FO's anyway.
 
After the fence falls, there will be some that will bid to other bases to be close to their home, but that will go for both sides. And with no bump, no flush, no Captain should be worried about being displaced.
 
Anyway, I realize this isn't exact, but my bet it's a guess within the ballpark. The bottom line is we do have some very senior pilots on our side, but by the time the fence will fall, they will mostly be gone leaving more junior pilots in their place. I would bet the most senior pilots of the combined airline will heavily weigh towards the pre-merger AA side after the fence falls...
 
And of course this isn't even considering the effect of bringing all the 787's and A350's on line...

 

[end_of_alpa]

How much are you going to have left when the APA comes knocking?

You mean like suing USAPA? How does that work?

 

[luvthe9]

Mach85,
 
While I certainly don't have the numbers for AA, I do have them for US. The numbers posted on APC seem to reflect a close approximation for US, so I'm assuming they are somewhere in the ballpark for AA.
 
The question becomes what will the list look like in 5-10 years once the retirements are removed. I'm sure they will very diligently dissect this aspect and see exactly what effect something like a DOH merge would have on the list after the fences come down.
 
Without having the EXACT numbers, I will use the numbers available and can certainly give it an educated guess... And I will use a 8 year fence (starting in Jan. 2014, ending in Dec. 2021) as an example using the retirement numbers found on APC for AA.
 
US currently has 4,203 pilots flying the line. Of those 1,902 are Captain positions.
 
I'm estimating AA has around 9,000 line pilots with around 4,000 Captain positions. Probably less than 4,000 due to the large number of widebodies requiring an IRO. But I'll stick with nice round numbers.
 
APC lists US retirements from 2014 through 2021 as 1,831. That's almost 50% of our group. 
 
AA retirements for the same period is listed as 2,353. 
 
So in 2021 when the fence comes down, Basically all our current FO's will be a Captain already. And most of our FO's in 2021 will have be hired after the fence went up, meaning they will all be junior to ALL your current pilots at AA. They pose no threat to current seniority on your property.
 
For AA in 2021, the better part of half of your Captain positions will have been filled with current AA FO's. And your remaining FO's will most likely be senior to all our FO's at that time. So the rest of your Captain positions will mostly go to current AA FO's anyway.
 
After the fence falls, there will be some that will bid to other bases to be close to their home, but that will go for both sides. And with no bump, no flush, no Captain should be worried about being displaced.
 
Anyway, I realize this isn't exact, but my bet it's a guess within the ballpark. The bottom line is we do have some very senior pilots on our side, but by the time the fence will fall, they will mostly be gone leaving more junior pilots in their place. I would bet the most senior pilots of the combined airline will heavily weigh towards the pre-merger AA side after the fence falls...
 
And of course this isn't even considering the effect of bringing all the 787's and A350's on line...

If the APA does not want or feel the need protect their wide body flying I guess that would be alright by quite a few of us. I can not believe the AA pilots are not calling every day to Wilson to secure a deal that would ensure all their pilots get to stay in all those big planes for years to come.

 

[snapthis]

You mean like suing USAPA? How does that work?

If you haven't figured it out by now, there is not much I can do for you.

 

[luvthe9]

If you haven't figured it out by now, there is not much I can do for you.

Yea, keep suing we love it you have helped this stay apart for years, enjoy the many summers to come on the "island". And don't forget attrition at AA that's why your buddy Horner ditched you scabs, he is going where the movement is, attrition and lots of it here on the east. Now run along and go buy a spare tie!!


And remember those big planes at AA don't belong to us, we have no rights to them, get that threw your head. Fences and C & R will need to be in place.

 

[snapthis]

Yea, keep suing we love it you have helped this stay apart for years, enjoy the many summers to come on the "island". And don't forget attrition at AA that's why your buddy Horner ditched you scabs, he is going where the movement is, attrition and lots of it here on the east. Now run along and go buy a spare tie!!
And remember those big planes at AA don't belong to us, we have no rights to them, get that threw your head. Fences and C & R will need to be in place.

There is a lot in your post you should have thought about years ago knowing there could be another merger.

 

[luvthe9]

There is a lot in your post you should have thought about years ago knowing there could be another merger.

it must kill you scabs that you did not take the NIC when it was offered, should have some foresight I guess and now with your top few hundred able to hold wide body slots right now and all the F/ Os that could be upgrading, call your reps tell them you want off the "island".


PS. You are the ones that should have been thinking of the next merger, Ferguson and Koontz screwed all you kids. FACT!

 

[snapthis]

it must kill you scabs that you did not take the NIC when it was offered, should have some foresight I guess and now with your top few hundred able to hold wide body slots right now and all the F/ Os that could be upgrading, call your reps tell them you want off the "island".
PS. You are the ones that should have been thinking of the next merger, Ferguson and Koontz screwed all you kids.

Yawn.

I'm doing just fine. The APA is doing just fine. You probably need to head downstairs and hop on the treadmill. Work off some of that stress.

 

[EastUS1]

10 miles???
 
Isn't that a little to close to a pilot who has a problem figuring out his current position?
breeze

 
Not-so-much Breeze...I did mention his potential value as a decoy/target...and well, frankly speaking...bait. 😉 I'd keep those far less in love with eagerly waving White Flags (in even frikkin' non-lethal labor disputes) for the attack.

 

[EastUS1]

 
APA said, ....

 
Oh No! Now I'm sure to have a either a sleepless night or at least horrible nightmares...? 😉