A Living Company Can Rise Again
- Thread starter USA320Pilot
- Start date
USA320Pilot said:
I hate to admit it, but this article makes sense, unlike the "full pay to the last day" mantra some people are still chanting. With that attitude, when the place folds up, what will you have to say??? ---> We won!!!
No one win's in that situation! The logical thing to do would be to go along with their plan, and if it's too much for you to stomach, start sending out resumes. It's not likely this ship will sail back out of bankruptcy! Just one man's opinion! FWIW
Dea Certe
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 889
- 0
An interesting article, worth reading several times as it has so many layers.
Posters more articulate than I can probably say it better, but here's my take:
US Airways is about become a cautionary tale to be told in business schools. The Gordon Grecko quote of "Greed is Good" is shown be not only a lie, but an extremely expensive one not only in terms of a corporate balance sheet, but in local and national economies. Reputations will be ruined at a career level that will haunt the resume like Marley's ghost. The links in the chain will be lost homes, divorces, emotional scars and suicides.
This is what happens when one makes a career out of destroying the livilihoods of others. When trust is lost, it can take a lifetime to rebuild it. US Airways lost the trust of its employees and vendors and the communities it serves.
I'm too emotional at this time to do a dispassionate analysis now. I want to see US Airways survive. I believe it has the tools to do so. What's lacking is the faith in the executives.
I don't believe any union is at fault here. Labor has given its share, several times. All of us have struggled with the decisions to vote "Yes" or "No." Most of us have given considerable thought to life post-US Airways, even post aviation. I believe we've done our best. I'm proud of most of the employees I've known and worked with over the years.
I'm hoping some good will come of this lesson. Labor relations are human relations. One can't go blithely through a company roster of employees and discard or devalue at will. There has to be Corporate Responsibilty. We can't go on rewarding the failures of a management team or a Board of Directors when they have failed so miserably. The seeds of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt bear bitter fruit. There needs to be accountability.
Most of us will pick up the pieces of our lives and carry on. Some of us won't be able to, either through age or emotional bent. With pensions lost, meaningful employment in this economy scarce, some will become dependent on Social Security. A major drain on society already struggling with record deficiets. (bad spelling, sorry)
Yep, it's a cautionary tale and let's all hope Ethics and Morality will become more important in Corporate America than obscene, undeserved wealth.
Dea
Posters more articulate than I can probably say it better, but here's my take:
US Airways is about become a cautionary tale to be told in business schools. The Gordon Grecko quote of "Greed is Good" is shown be not only a lie, but an extremely expensive one not only in terms of a corporate balance sheet, but in local and national economies. Reputations will be ruined at a career level that will haunt the resume like Marley's ghost. The links in the chain will be lost homes, divorces, emotional scars and suicides.
This is what happens when one makes a career out of destroying the livilihoods of others. When trust is lost, it can take a lifetime to rebuild it. US Airways lost the trust of its employees and vendors and the communities it serves.
I'm too emotional at this time to do a dispassionate analysis now. I want to see US Airways survive. I believe it has the tools to do so. What's lacking is the faith in the executives.
I don't believe any union is at fault here. Labor has given its share, several times. All of us have struggled with the decisions to vote "Yes" or "No." Most of us have given considerable thought to life post-US Airways, even post aviation. I believe we've done our best. I'm proud of most of the employees I've known and worked with over the years.
I'm hoping some good will come of this lesson. Labor relations are human relations. One can't go blithely through a company roster of employees and discard or devalue at will. There has to be Corporate Responsibilty. We can't go on rewarding the failures of a management team or a Board of Directors when they have failed so miserably. The seeds of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt bear bitter fruit. There needs to be accountability.
Most of us will pick up the pieces of our lives and carry on. Some of us won't be able to, either through age or emotional bent. With pensions lost, meaningful employment in this economy scarce, some will become dependent on Social Security. A major drain on society already struggling with record deficiets. (bad spelling, sorry)
Yep, it's a cautionary tale and let's all hope Ethics and Morality will become more important in Corporate America than obscene, undeserved wealth.
Dea
High Iron
Senior
- Aug 20, 2002
- 495
- 0
'GeezLouise' in bold
unlike the "full pay to the last day" mantra some people are still chanting. With that attitude, when the place folds up, what will you have to say??? ---> We won!!!
No one win's in that situation!
But if you're gone anyway, you sure don't lose any more than you did, although there may be some measure of satisfaction that you didn't bankroll the hiring of your own firing squad.
The logical thing to do would be to go along with their plan, and if it's too much for you to stomach, start sending out resumes
No not really. You see, "their plan" is to hack large percentages of personnel, that is the dirty little secret that isn't leaked to the media or corporate pundits/shills...who've oversimplified and distorted the message to "live on a little less to live and fight another day". "The company survives". What company? The virtual one? If you know you're going to be furloughed WITH the plan ( as part of the plan ) then there's not much incentive to go along with said plan now, is there? Get it? In a broad sense, To ask others to fall so you may remain is beyond comprehension. In this manner, the most logical thing to do is ride it to the end and hold on to what you've got. It simply makes more economic sense. As the korporate kapitans say "it's just business".
It's not likely this ship will sail back out of bankruptcy! Just one man's opinion!
One would have to be incredibly naive to believe that BK is not reality regardless of any "deals" made. Whether this ship sails out of it or not is beyond our control. In any event, there's the ugly fact again of the wide swath of the headcount pole-axe. To those large numbers of people cut, I really doubt they are in a rah-rah mood for"the company". -- This is what you get when you back people into a lose-lose situation. You can't frighten them....they're already dead. Get it?
Oh, and Dea; What a reasoned and eloquent post. Excellent.
unlike the "full pay to the last day" mantra some people are still chanting. With that attitude, when the place folds up, what will you have to say??? ---> We won!!!
No one win's in that situation!
But if you're gone anyway, you sure don't lose any more than you did, although there may be some measure of satisfaction that you didn't bankroll the hiring of your own firing squad.
The logical thing to do would be to go along with their plan, and if it's too much for you to stomach, start sending out resumes
No not really. You see, "their plan" is to hack large percentages of personnel, that is the dirty little secret that isn't leaked to the media or corporate pundits/shills...who've oversimplified and distorted the message to "live on a little less to live and fight another day". "The company survives". What company? The virtual one? If you know you're going to be furloughed WITH the plan ( as part of the plan ) then there's not much incentive to go along with said plan now, is there? Get it? In a broad sense, To ask others to fall so you may remain is beyond comprehension. In this manner, the most logical thing to do is ride it to the end and hold on to what you've got. It simply makes more economic sense. As the korporate kapitans say "it's just business".
It's not likely this ship will sail back out of bankruptcy! Just one man's opinion!
One would have to be incredibly naive to believe that BK is not reality regardless of any "deals" made. Whether this ship sails out of it or not is beyond our control. In any event, there's the ugly fact again of the wide swath of the headcount pole-axe. To those large numbers of people cut, I really doubt they are in a rah-rah mood for"the company". -- This is what you get when you back people into a lose-lose situation. You can't frighten them....they're already dead. Get it?
Oh, and Dea; What a reasoned and eloquent post. Excellent.
wings396
Veteran
- Aug 20, 2002
- 3,672
- 1,122
The Airline may rise again, but they have no plans to take our wages along. This is very aparet with the 2012 term tossed at the CWA. I would imagine that this is the same offer handed to the others. How many here can afford to take a third wage reduction, and live with it for another 8 long years? Medical costs are rising, my Taxes are going up every year, and so on. With the cost of living rising each year, and our wages at a stalemate, what are we to do? Maybe it is time to move on and get into another job that will actually give us a raise from time to time. When things turn around...if they do, will the company open up the contracts prior to 2012 and lift our wages??? We all know that is nothing more than a pipe dream.
These Jokers will once again line thier pockets, while they laugh at us for being a bunch of suckers 3 times over. Maybe a Pilots job is worth saving, but the rest may not be. Other than the Pilot group, and maybe some in the MTC group, everyone left will be lucky to earn $25k a year. How far will that get you in 2010?
I disagree with many posters here, that say that is better than nothing, or you can't earn that elsewhere. There are sevral jobs that will start near that amount, with a chance of advancement. In the next 5-6 years JB and WN employees will earn $20+ an hour, with us stuck at $13 if we are lucky. Can we cry to the company to bring us up to the LCC's rate then?
These Jokers will once again line thier pockets, while they laugh at us for being a bunch of suckers 3 times over. Maybe a Pilots job is worth saving, but the rest may not be. Other than the Pilot group, and maybe some in the MTC group, everyone left will be lucky to earn $25k a year. How far will that get you in 2010?
I disagree with many posters here, that say that is better than nothing, or you can't earn that elsewhere. There are sevral jobs that will start near that amount, with a chance of advancement. In the next 5-6 years JB and WN employees will earn $20+ an hour, with us stuck at $13 if we are lucky. Can we cry to the company to bring us up to the LCC's rate then?
delldude
Veteran
geezlouise
THIS SAYS IT ALL FOR ME DUDE
cavalier
Veteran
This is a feel good story, nothing more.
The author is first and foremost pro business.
He is nuts saying this is like the steel mills because the mills had more people by far, food banks, entire towns destroyed resulted when the mills shut down, this will not happen this time around.
The employees by and large are more skilled than they were when the mills went away and they are better equipped to make the needed transition to other employment.
This airline not only destroyed any trust in the employees but all of government as well, from top to bottom.
This airline was in trouble post 9/11 and all 9/11 did was accelerate the resulting failures that were coming simply pushing up the date.
This airline has been a cash cow for the top level executives only.
This airline has ex Eastern personnel here telling us to please listen to them and still blaming the unions for Eastern’s failure, when I know better and so does everyone else.
This airline has a known union breaker on board telling everyone to just listen to me and everything will be ok.
This airline is a mixture of many mergers with different people and cultures.
This airline tried paying everyone many times what they were earning previous to the mergers, they paid pilots to sit home, they talked the pilots into selling out the IAM in 92. We have all this and many more lies and deception coupled with union breakers and Eastern personnel on board making for a perfect formula for total and absolute failure.
You have employees who believe that making the kind of money they do is an entitlement because they are like children, spoiled, this includes pilots who still believe they somehow earned the right to be millionaires and they are and are no different then the greedy top executives who raped this company again and again.
It’s a miracle it has taken this long to succumb and why some people, incredibly, still think this is a cash cow. This might have been a cash cow at one time but things change and this airline’s time like the mills has come and gone.
All that is left to do now is to move on and keep one’s sanity by not being bitter. If you have your health and sound mind, no one can stop you, not even this place that was once called a great airline.
This place is like the couple that were married three different times trying to work it out, but too much has happened, too many lies, too many scars.
This company is not a living company but a mirage of a company, it’s only living off the back of everyone like a parasite.
I really feel bad for the ones still hoping against hope that everything will be ok because everything hasn’t been ok since I was on my probation and they were furloughing people like there was no tomorrow. I knew way back then that this airline was going to be a stepping stone in my life’s path. I am thankful I stepped over the stream without getting wet and hope all the others are as lucky.
The author is first and foremost pro business.
He is nuts saying this is like the steel mills because the mills had more people by far, food banks, entire towns destroyed resulted when the mills shut down, this will not happen this time around.
The employees by and large are more skilled than they were when the mills went away and they are better equipped to make the needed transition to other employment.
This airline not only destroyed any trust in the employees but all of government as well, from top to bottom.
This airline was in trouble post 9/11 and all 9/11 did was accelerate the resulting failures that were coming simply pushing up the date.
This airline has been a cash cow for the top level executives only.
This airline has ex Eastern personnel here telling us to please listen to them and still blaming the unions for Eastern’s failure, when I know better and so does everyone else.
This airline has a known union breaker on board telling everyone to just listen to me and everything will be ok.
This airline is a mixture of many mergers with different people and cultures.
This airline tried paying everyone many times what they were earning previous to the mergers, they paid pilots to sit home, they talked the pilots into selling out the IAM in 92. We have all this and many more lies and deception coupled with union breakers and Eastern personnel on board making for a perfect formula for total and absolute failure.
You have employees who believe that making the kind of money they do is an entitlement because they are like children, spoiled, this includes pilots who still believe they somehow earned the right to be millionaires and they are and are no different then the greedy top executives who raped this company again and again.
It’s a miracle it has taken this long to succumb and why some people, incredibly, still think this is a cash cow. This might have been a cash cow at one time but things change and this airline’s time like the mills has come and gone.
All that is left to do now is to move on and keep one’s sanity by not being bitter. If you have your health and sound mind, no one can stop you, not even this place that was once called a great airline.
This place is like the couple that were married three different times trying to work it out, but too much has happened, too many lies, too many scars.
This company is not a living company but a mirage of a company, it’s only living off the back of everyone like a parasite.
I really feel bad for the ones still hoping against hope that everything will be ok because everything hasn’t been ok since I was on my probation and they were furloughing people like there was no tomorrow. I knew way back then that this airline was going to be a stepping stone in my life’s path. I am thankful I stepped over the stream without getting wet and hope all the others are as lucky.
OldGuyinPA
Veteran
I feel so much better now....
I'm off to church......
I'm off to church......
delldude
Veteran
CAV
this airline reminds me of one of those failed social programs of days gone by that the government FIXED for our benefit because we can't make these decisions on our own.
this airline reminds me of one of those failed social programs of days gone by that the government FIXED for our benefit because we can't make these decisions on our own.
As time ticks on policies, procedures and technology are changing rapidly at US and other airlines. The longer the negotiations go on the clearer it is becoming to CWA members that their positions with the company are very soon to be OBSOLETE!
The majority want it over with as soon as possible. They are ready to move on to the next chapter in their lives. Whether it be another job, unemployment benefits for awhile, school, retirement whatever. A major paycut IS NOT in the picture because their fate is known. There are very very few willing to go along with "the plan". The only ones willing are, a small percentage, of the ones that are on the verge of retirement and the ones that have family in other countries or spread throughout the US and need the flying benefits.
The CWA has absolutely nothing to lose but a major decrease in unemployment benefits if they have to work for any period of time at lower wages before their job is eliminated.
Management is doing everything in their power to get rid of Res agents and airport personel. Agents see it and know it's coming. It's just a matter of when and the majority hope that it is much sooner than later!
I can guarantee unless the proposed pay cut is drastically reduced, the NO votes will prevail for the CWA. No other choice makes sense.
The majority want it over with as soon as possible. They are ready to move on to the next chapter in their lives. Whether it be another job, unemployment benefits for awhile, school, retirement whatever. A major paycut IS NOT in the picture because their fate is known. There are very very few willing to go along with "the plan". The only ones willing are, a small percentage, of the ones that are on the verge of retirement and the ones that have family in other countries or spread throughout the US and need the flying benefits.
The CWA has absolutely nothing to lose but a major decrease in unemployment benefits if they have to work for any period of time at lower wages before their job is eliminated.
Management is doing everything in their power to get rid of Res agents and airport personel. Agents see it and know it's coming. It's just a matter of when and the majority hope that it is much sooner than later!
I can guarantee unless the proposed pay cut is drastically reduced, the NO votes will prevail for the CWA. No other choice makes sense.
delldude
Veteran
BOBCAT
i hope that when it comes down to it you and your members walk with the IAM .
i hope that when it comes down to it you and your members walk with the IAM .
Oliver Twist
Advanced
There is life after USAirways! I and many others are proof of that. Here's a show stopper for you. I got a RAISE at my new job after only 6 months. A cost of living raise no less! I can tell you for certain, life is better on the other side of the terminal for me.
Pleae make no mistake in reading my post. I DO NOT ADVOCATE VOTING NO ON YOUR CONTRACT OFFERS. I DO advocate looking for a new job WITH a paycheck (reduced for sure) in hand. It's far better than unemployment checks I assure you.
Network, look around, send out resumes, do whatever it takes to find something else, just don't allow THEM to close the doors on you so you end up with nothing and still have to look for another job. Make decisions for yourself and do it quickly.
Allowing others to determine if you get to keep your house is shameful and lazy. Plan, plan plan in advance while you can and take your paycheck as you look. It sucks for sure taking a reduced paycheck, BUT it's better than the unemployment line!
Just my 2 cents worth, let the "ripping" begin.
Pleae make no mistake in reading my post. I DO NOT ADVOCATE VOTING NO ON YOUR CONTRACT OFFERS. I DO advocate looking for a new job WITH a paycheck (reduced for sure) in hand. It's far better than unemployment checks I assure you.
Network, look around, send out resumes, do whatever it takes to find something else, just don't allow THEM to close the doors on you so you end up with nothing and still have to look for another job. Make decisions for yourself and do it quickly.
Allowing others to determine if you get to keep your house is shameful and lazy. Plan, plan plan in advance while you can and take your paycheck as you look. It sucks for sure taking a reduced paycheck, BUT it's better than the unemployment line!
Just my 2 cents worth, let the "ripping" begin.
High Iron
Senior
- Aug 20, 2002
- 495
- 0
OT:
Allowing others to determine if you get to keep your house is shameful and lazy. Plan, plan plan in advance while you can and take your paycheck as you look. It sucks for sure taking a reduced paycheck, BUT it's better than the unemployment line!
Don't worry about me buddy, I've been expecting to be being kicked through the unemployment goalposts for some time now, and have been making plans accordingly...but I am not implementing them till that day comes. Nothing shameful and lazy there. Just makes more financial sense. Since it really isn't a matter of "taking a reduced paycheck" as much as it is voting ones' self out of a job, that whole argument is meaningless for thousands of employees.
Pleae make no mistake in reading my post. I DO NOT ADVOCATE VOTING NO ON YOUR CONTRACT OFFERS. I DO advocate looking for a new job WITH a paycheck (reduced for sure) in hand. It's far better than unemployment checks I assure you
Nah, because unemployment checks are what you'll get anyhow. What makes you think people aren't already looking to employment elsewhere? May as well stay if it is possible to delay plan B. At least this way they're not adding to the inertia of corporate plunder.
Just my 2 cents worth, let the "ripping" begin.
If you call responding to an argument "ripping", then wouldn't logic dictate the the argument itself could be "ripping"? Coulda' kept the 2 cents and spent it on a bowl of gruel.....................
Allowing others to determine if you get to keep your house is shameful and lazy. Plan, plan plan in advance while you can and take your paycheck as you look. It sucks for sure taking a reduced paycheck, BUT it's better than the unemployment line!
Don't worry about me buddy, I've been expecting to be being kicked through the unemployment goalposts for some time now, and have been making plans accordingly...but I am not implementing them till that day comes. Nothing shameful and lazy there. Just makes more financial sense. Since it really isn't a matter of "taking a reduced paycheck" as much as it is voting ones' self out of a job, that whole argument is meaningless for thousands of employees.
Pleae make no mistake in reading my post. I DO NOT ADVOCATE VOTING NO ON YOUR CONTRACT OFFERS. I DO advocate looking for a new job WITH a paycheck (reduced for sure) in hand. It's far better than unemployment checks I assure you
Nah, because unemployment checks are what you'll get anyhow. What makes you think people aren't already looking to employment elsewhere? May as well stay if it is possible to delay plan B. At least this way they're not adding to the inertia of corporate plunder.
Just my 2 cents worth, let the "ripping" begin.
If you call responding to an argument "ripping", then wouldn't logic dictate the the argument itself could be "ripping"? Coulda' kept the 2 cents and spent it on a bowl of gruel.....................
Olliver Twist,
AMen to that..
I went for an interview last week,and got hired on...
I was sooo thrilled when the owner said when can you start,I forgot to ask if I'll get paid while in trng..
Go figure..
I'm getting swaps in order,and only plan to be at work 2-3x Per week..Less if it works out...
Better to look while you're gainfully employed then not...
No more airline for me..
This is a 9-5..Yes I'll miss the afternoon free time for appts,but I'll enjoy the large checks..
Something I never did with US..Except of course your on the BOD.or davey or db....
AMen to that..
I went for an interview last week,and got hired on...
I was sooo thrilled when the owner said when can you start,I forgot to ask if I'll get paid while in trng..
Go figure..
I'm getting swaps in order,and only plan to be at work 2-3x Per week..Less if it works out...
Better to look while you're gainfully employed then not...
No more airline for me..
This is a 9-5..Yes I'll miss the afternoon free time for appts,but I'll enjoy the large checks..
Something I never did with US..Except of course your on the BOD.or davey or db....
