A321 Rumors

TravelDude said:
Ok, so we all know Airbus is always trying to out do Boeing. Likewise, Boeing is usually trying to out do Airbus.

So, with the A321 why did Airbus not increase the engine and other things to make it more closely compete with the B757?

Up until this conversation I thought the A321 did compete with B757, now as I read above I was clearly mistaken.

Does Airbus have any plans to change the A321-xxx so that it could compete better with the B757?

Would those changes possibly make it so it would not be considered the same type rating as the A320/A319?

I know, a lot of what if or what about questions, but hey you all seem to be semi experts, so teach me!
I think the A321 is intended to compete with the 757. It just the A321 is out of the 757's league.

Of course, the fact that the the A321 looks to remain in production for the foreseeable future while the 757's line is closing may indicate to some that the A321 has "won." However, I believe Boeing is working on a new version of the 737-900 that is intended to compete directly with the A321; we'll see how that battle pans-out.
 
At first, US never ordered the A321 because it was very range limited.

US ordered a bunch after the initial batch of 319/320 aircraft because there was a -200 version that made it able to do the transcons, mainly by adding aux fuel tanks to get the extended range.

The 757 will always have an advantage, because while you have an upgraded engine on the 321, you are still dealing with the same wing, and if you get too radical changing things you lose the benefits of a single type rating for operations. I know when a 321 subbed on SNA-PIT flights, it took a huge performance penalty because rotation speed was something around 160kts.

Similarly, Airbus has an issue with the A318, you have a double shrink of the original airframe, as the A321 is a stretch. Look at Boeing's 767-400 experience, if you get too far from some original design, things don't always work out as intended.

From a passenger standpoint, the 321 isn't bad on the transcon, save from getting stuck in some bumpy stuff around FL310 until you can burn fuel. You may still burn less lower than the 757 due the more efficient engines, though, I am not sure.

I can tell you this, there are many parts, especially in the gear systems, which are not interchangable with the 321's smaller siblings.
 
I've flown A321's for the last 4 years, with both CFM and IAE motors. Yes, segments longer than 4 hours, the altitude capability isn't great, but it depends on the motors. The CFM powered 321's begin to dog out in the high twenties, where the IAE's work much better on up to the low thirties.

Comparing the 757 to the A321 is like comparing apples to oranges. Yes the 75 has a better range and better altitude capability, but the 321 burns less gas, has a more quite and wider cabin. Plus, the common type allows a pilot to fly a 100 seat aircraft (A318) up to a 210 seat aircraft (A321).

The European Charter companies have just as many A321's as 757...because it's a good airplane!

Hot summer day's in Denver is no diffent with a fully loaded A321 going to the East cost then a fully loaded 727 or DC8....UAL did that for years...what's the difference?? I've flown 727's, DC8's and A321's out of high altitude airports in the summer....The A321 performs just fine!

Just my two cents :D
 
From a passenger perspective, I like the A321 about as much as the 757. The plane does not have quite the tunnel tube feel of the 757. The seats are a bit wider and I have not really noticed a service difference owing to the operational ceiling of the aircraft.

OTOH, one problem that does arise with the A321 is the position of the 2L door - its quite near the wing and the engine and has spooked US to the point that they do A321 boarding from the 1L door.
 
phllax said:
The only award the A321 has won over the 757 is the piece of junk award.
I don't know if I'd go that far. In any event, I was merely referring to how you can always count on the Airbus supporters to use every scrap of evidence to support their claims that Airbus is better, just as the Boeing boys do.

Either way, as an economy-class passenger on narrowbody aircraft I prefer Airbus as I find them more comfortable. However, if I'm in the back on an international flight I don't care for anyone's airplanes; eight-plus hours in economy is awful no matter how you slice it!
 
Bear96 said:
I understand it is one type rating but I thought there was still a restriction that even with the type you can only be current on up to two variations (or whatever the technical term is)....

But maybe my overactive imagination made that up.
Bear 96,

It really depends on what the FAA allows each airline to do, and it's more of a case by case basis.

For example, when I was at TWA, for a while guys were flying the DC9-10, -30, -40, -50, and the MD80. Eventually they made the MD80 a seperate fleet, but the DC9 guys were still flying 4 types. And anyone who's flown the DC9 will tell you how different the -10 is from the others since there's no leadign edge slats on that model.

At UA we have the 757, 767-200, 767-300(pegasus), 767-300(PIP), and for a while the -300 had 2 engine variations (thrust rating not engine type) Our handbook has a chapter called "Differences." It's almost as thick as the normal manual itself. The FAA basically told us that any more differences added to the fleet and they would split the fleet on us.

So it really depends. I think the FAA would sign off on a common 318/319/320/321 fleet because the aircraft was designed more for fleet commonality than the boeing originally was. I think the Airbus has less differences between the variations on one type certificate.
 
coolflyingfool said:
I am not sure what the data says, but operating the A321 in DEN on a hot day in the simmer, may not be fun. Listening to US chatter, the A321 was not a good plane for their long haul runs. IF you kept the A321 on flights under, say 2 or 2 1/2 hours, it might do well as a replacement. But, the 757's run on some long thin routes where a 767-300 would be way too much. Just my thoughts.......
One man's opinion...no problem with the 321 here. It's been a great plane...alot like a 757. The person complaining probably hates airbus.
 
The A321-231 w/ V2533 engines has adequate perf. to accomplish the US Transcon mission.
The max tkoff wt of 205,000lbs coupled w/ the 52,500lbs fuel tank capacity, allows you to carry 170-180 pax, comfortably on a +6hr transcon mission (-80 kts headwind during January).

While the A321 may not be a "pilotsâ€￾ airplane like the B757, it surely is a more profitable one, when considering important things like fleet commonality, crew costs, and lease rates.

The B757 is good on thin B767 missions, as the range/performance is superior to the A321. However, not all rts require these two variables.

In todays current low yield environment, transporting a seat from A-B, at minimal cost is the key. I believe when you remove the nostalgic appeal of the B757 and look at pure economics, the A321 would be superior in certain markets/stage lengths.
 
As one more item, Airbus had plans for the 322. This would solve the wing and thrust problems while increasing the altitude capability into the 40ks.
 
FLYAWAY said:
As one more item, Airbus had plans for the 322. This would solve the wing and thrust problems while increasing the altitude capability into the 40ks.
Why did Airbus pull the plug on the design?
 
SO there I was sitting in my Managerial Finance class nodding off and it hit me! I almost ran upstairs to the computer lab to throw it on this site and another site I frequent...

On paper, nobody can deny how the 321 would be a great replacement for the 762. (Emphasis: ON PAPER). Here's what I propose:

1) if the 321 pilot payscale is the same as the 320/319 then it's also going to be equal to the 737 in the current contract right? HUGE savings compared with currently running the 762!

2) if the payscale is the same as the 320 then we'll be toe-to-toe with Jet Blue who have roughly the same pay for their pilots as we do for ours on a competing market.

3) with this much lower payscale, that route's CASM will drop, making competition with AA a bit easier. (I think it's safe to say AA is our number one competitor on this market.)

These three points suppose that the 321 can operationally handle long transcons. These three points also suppose we still have orders deferred with Airbus that can be transferred to 321's so less money out of pocket.

What do ya'll think???
FA4UA
 
FA4UA said:
1) if the 321 pilot payscale is the same as the 320/319 then it's also going to be equal to the 737 in the current contract right? HUGE savings compared with currently running the 762!
Sounds like good reasoning, despite it being the same fleet 321/320/319 I see ALPA trying to argue that 321 should receive higher pay because of number of passengers. However, no offense to the pilots out there reading this I like the idea of the who Airbus fleet having the same pay rate.

How does US Airways pay their Airbus pilots?
 
TravelDude said:
FA4UA said:
1) if the 321 pilot payscale is the same as the 320/319 then it's also going to be equal to the 737 in the current contract right? HUGE savings compared with currently running the 762!
Sounds like good reasoning, despite it being the same fleet 321/320/319 I see ALPA trying to argue that 321 should receive higher pay because of number of passengers. However, no offense to the pilots out there reading this I like the idea of the who Airbus fleet having the same pay rate.

How does US Airways pay their Airbus pilots?
ask, and ye shall receive.

http://www.apapdp.org/apa.contract.analysi...a.pay.rates.php