What worked the best for us was not a punitive policy but a reward system. We got points for each month of perfect attendance, points for holidays (including Halloween which was one of our largest 'sick" days), and every May using a "magic" formula, based on the savings of increased attendance, bonus payments were made.. It could be as much as $1500, I think more in some years. IODs and time off for family deaths were not counted against you. There were even payments for 1 time sick. There could be no late sign ins or missed trips. The down side was that people flew sick. There is a valid issue about how management can use comp time, personal days, vacation days and just about anything else so that they show "perfect attendance". It hurts the credibility of any attendance program. I ALWAYS had perfect attendance when I worked in the office. Broken ankle, I could work at the training center but I wouldn't have been able to fly. Bad cold, I could come to work, close my office door and nap if needed, but not fly. Pregnant, I could teach up to the actual delivery if I wanted, but not fly. It is easy to question f/as off duty when you're on the ground vs flying. On certain medications, ok for the office but not flying. Its a different world.
AA/APFA Attendance Agreement
- Thread starter AAStew
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What worked the best for us was not a punitive policy but a reward system. We got points for each month of perfect attendance, points for holidays (including Halloween which was one of our largest 'sick" days), and every May using a "magic" formula, based on the savings of increased attendance, bonus payments were made.. It could be as much as $1500, I think more in some years. IODs and time off for family deaths were not counted against you. There were even payments for 1 time sick. There could be no late sign ins or missed trips. The down side was that people flew sick. There is a valid issue about how management can use comp time, personal days, vacation days and just about anything else so that they show "perfect attendance". It hurts the credibility of any attendance program. I ALWAYS had perfect attendance when I worked in the office. Broken ankle, I could work at the training center but I wouldn't have been able to fly. Bad cold, I could come to work, close my office door and nap if needed, but not fly. Pregnant, I could teach up to the actual delivery if I wanted, but not fly. It is easy to question f/as off duty when you're on the ground vs flying. On certain medications, ok for the office but not flying. Its a different world.
eolesen
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AA's attendance control policies have needed an overhaul for a long, long time. It's time to get rid of the micromanagement "gotta see the attendance supervisor before returning to work" and treat people like adults. It's also time to start firing the people who view SK as additional VC time. The current process of issuing Dr. slips, warning letters, etc. is just giving the abusers more time to game the system. As already noted, there are plenty of people on recall lists who WANT to work.
Personally, I don't think you shouldn't need attendance reward programs for management.
That said, while all the points you've mentioned are valid reasons why it hurts the credibility, you overlooked the very reason that comp-time exists -- management doesn't get paid for anything above and beyond the 40 hours they're paid for.
Going to a meeting in DFW which requires leaving home at 0500 and getting back at 2330? Got a mandatory staff meeting on your day off? Someone else is on VC or legitimately sick? Too damn bad. You're expected to be there, paid or not.
I used to keep track of my comp time, but stopped in 1995 or so when it reached 400 hours, since I knew there was never a chance of being able to use all of it. The one or two times I discussed it, I was basically told that when you're on salary, you're being paid by the month, not the hour. However long it takes to get the job done is how long it takes. Make perfect sense to me, and I take that same attitude now when dealing with my employees. If you work a little over this month, be sure to balance it out next month.
Personally, I don't think you shouldn't need attendance reward programs for management.
That said, while all the points you've mentioned are valid reasons why it hurts the credibility, you overlooked the very reason that comp-time exists -- management doesn't get paid for anything above and beyond the 40 hours they're paid for.
Going to a meeting in DFW which requires leaving home at 0500 and getting back at 2330? Got a mandatory staff meeting on your day off? Someone else is on VC or legitimately sick? Too damn bad. You're expected to be there, paid or not.
I used to keep track of my comp time, but stopped in 1995 or so when it reached 400 hours, since I knew there was never a chance of being able to use all of it. The one or two times I discussed it, I was basically told that when you're on salary, you're being paid by the month, not the hour. However long it takes to get the job done is how long it takes. Make perfect sense to me, and I take that same attitude now when dealing with my employees. If you work a little over this month, be sure to balance it out next month.
The agreement seems much the same. A point system with the same triggers for written warnings and termination. Difference is using call a nurse and getting a DR note being sick Dec 21 - Jan 5. Also MT over holiday is 2 points with no exceptions.
sick = 1 point
sick over 7 days 2 points
sick over 7 days using call a nurse 1 point
sick over holiday 2 points
sick over holiday with DR note 1 point
sick = 1 point
sick over 7 days 2 points
sick over 7 days using call a nurse 1 point
sick over holiday 2 points
sick over holiday with DR note 1 point
jimntx
Veteran
Amen! I get so very tired of hearing f/as say, "I earned that sick leave. It's mine to use whenever and for whatever reason I choose."
Well, no. If it ever gets to that point, sick leave is not supplemental vacation. And, you will not convince any court in the U.S. that it is. Just as you can not use your vacation any time you choose, you can not legally use sick leave for any reason other than personal or immediate family illness.
If the company were smart, they would put some money into terminating the sick leave abusers, and fight the union all the way to court on it. It wouldn't take more than a few successful terminations, and the union would start letting f/as know that they do have to show up to work on weekends and holidays whether they feel like or not, whether or not they have a hot date, and whether or not they like who they're scheduled to fly with.
There is legal precedent for terminating people for "patterns of behavior"--union member or not. Trust me, you will not convince any court that it is just coincidence that you happen to be sick every Christmas, and every July 4th, and every Easter. And, another thing you won't find happening is that Dr. who will write you an excuse for anything, any time showing up in court to back up those excuses with "under oath" testimony. He/she could lose their license to practice medicine. And, no matter how much you think your Dr. likes you, they don't like you that much.
Now, flame on. Tell me about how you can't be fired for calling in sick no matter how often or when.
I think every sane person will agree with you here Jim.
The union certainly is not in the business of fighting for the scum, unfortunately for us, yet fortunately for them. They get fired on presidents the union must chooses to fight. Until the company has a fully implemented fair sick policy, and forces FSM's to follow as written and not jump the gun on one person and not another. We will continue to have problems and habitual abusers winning there jobs back for termination not correctly documented or followed by the FSM's.
The union certainly is not in the business of fighting for the scum, unfortunately for us, yet fortunately for them. They get fired on presidents the union must chooses to fight. Until the company has a fully implemented fair sick policy, and forces FSM's to follow as written and not jump the gun on one person and not another. We will continue to have problems and habitual abusers winning there jobs back for termination not correctly documented or followed by the FSM's.
the difference is positive points vs negative points...the nurse line is an added expense that should be discontinued. either you are sick or you're not. don't call the nurse nd be charged with 2 times...totally ridiculous
jimntx
Veteran
Well, Nancy note the dates, 21DEC-05JAN. There are some people who will call the automated system, but will think twice if they have to talk to a live person.
Yes, the need for it is ridiculous and childish, but when you hear the schedulers talk about f/as who have been sick every Christmas for 4 or 5 straight years, you realize that there are f/as who are not acting like adults.
Having been a union rep and had to work the grievances I would challenge with: if you're junior and are scheduled to fly every Christmas, then that is when you'll be sick. If is abuse is suspected then charge the person. Anyone calling off over the holidays should be proactive and submit a Drs note whether required or not. We had 12 day reserve spreads and those went very senior. Sometimes bidding reserve even when you're not required is the best way to get time off. I was surprised that none of the spreads encompassed both Christmas and New Years Eve. A little more creativity in building spreads might shake things up.
AC AA LA FA
Veteran
Although at first the policy looks pretty much the same,it really is not. There is now a rolling 12 month calender, points fall off. A f/a on corrective action (1ww 2ww) can have up to 2 points in the rolling 12 and still go back to base. The look back is expanded to 18mo at pre term. PO/PUs are now non chargeable. Critical period restrictions only really apply to "chronic offenders" of the X-mas Holiday. I hope with a closer look and you will agree. At the end of the day nobody likes any attendance policy.
Garfield1966
Veteran
Last time I checked you (and us) bid on seniority. If they wanted to have holidays off, perhaps they should have looked into a desk job. I have nearly 20 years and still cannot hold the holidays off. I have not spent the actually holiday with my family for as long as I have been with AA. It is part of the deal. I have the option of getting a desk job like everyone else. I guess the difference is I don't have the entitlement mentality that some others do.
garfield, In all fairness though you get part of the day off with your family. Crew members are many times gone before and return after the holiday.
jimntx
Veteran
Mikey, I don't think it's a fairness issue at all. On this one I have to agree with Gar. I was told in my interview with AA that I would probably have to work weekends and holidays for most if not all of my career (after all I was 55 when I interviewed; so, no one was expecting more than 10 years or so which is still VERY junior at AA).
I was asked if I understood that and was I willing to do that. My answer was yes. I may be wrong but I don't think so...if my answer had been other than yes, I don't think I would be at AA today.
I was asked if I understood that and was I willing to do that. My answer was yes. I may be wrong but I don't think so...if my answer had been other than yes, I don't think I would be at AA today.
operaations
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I think what bothers people most about the Holiday sick abuse, is the apparent lack of regard for fellow co-workers. The do not care attitude and frequent posting every year about the Blue Flu...or the bragging about calling in sick to punish the company. When in actuality very few flights if any get cancelled to the sick outs over the holidays. They may get delayed a little. But the people that are hurt most are your fellow co-workers that get re assigned get extended or have to work with a minimal crew on a very crowded flight.
I am not surewho posted the comment before about being sick with a broken ankle or a little cold or a something like that can be done on the ground behind a desk...but can not be done while on the plane...is a great reference that I have not hear. I agree I have never thought about it that way. It is true soo true......
I am not surewho posted the comment before about being sick with a broken ankle or a little cold or a something like that can be done on the ground behind a desk...but can not be done while on the plane...is a great reference that I have not hear. I agree I have never thought about it that way. It is true soo true......
My two bits - some people have family that don't live near where we work. My family is over 300 miles away, unless I have a day off, I don't have time to drive up to see them and drive back.
I agree, my point was though in his assertion he still has to work the holidays. Its an unfair comparison when you are point out you have to work the holiday yet you are also off and home for close to 2/3rds of the holiday day.Mikey, I don't think it's a fairness issue at all. On this one I have to agree with Gar. I was told in my interview with AA that I would probably have to work weekends and holidays for most if not all of my career (after all I was 55 when I interviewed; so, no one was expecting more than 10 years or so which is still VERY junior at AA).
I was asked if I understood that and was I willing to do that. My answer was yes. I may be wrong but I don't think so...if my answer had been other than yes, I don't think I would be at AA today.
I am not making excuses for anyone who is calling in. I used to use DEC reserve to get the holiday off. These days its too senior for me.
