AAA ALPA Thread 9-21 to 9-27

[longing4piedmont]

I cannot predict the future.......

Yes, we clearly understand that YOU can not predict the future. YOU have a long and perfect record in your predictions.

Regards,

l4pi

ps. Good to see you feeling better after being so sick on Friday.

 

[sharktooth]

It's devolving into a profession of individualists and opportunist, not unionist.

That would only work in the absence of some sort of seniority list. Are you saying that will occur? So, the most senior dudes would be those with access to the best "agents", a sort of union on a person by person basis?

Can I be a free agent?

 

[Junebug172]

...who will do everything they can to damage the "business enterprise".

Ya, just like they did with that USAPA-sponsored sickout on Friday. right?

You guys are all talk.

Remember when you sat and cried "Armageddon" over and over? You'll fold like a cheap suit like you ALWAYS do.

 

[Bear96]

. . . . John McIlvenna said [the NMB card count] will happen in a "matter of days".

Really? He said it will happen?

Indeed, it probably will happen. However, that is not quite what McIlvenna said.

Interesting how almost hour by hour this quote (as retold over and over and over again by USA320pilot) morphs just a little bit more.

 

[Bear96]

767jetz,

I often wonder why you spend time virtually every day since this message board was launched preaching to the US Airways pilots.

Another classic.

Yes, just why do people spend time doing such things, pray tell? After all, you're the expert at it.

 

[Bear96]

I cannot predict the future[.]

There's a shocker.

 

[Bud8EE]

That would only work in the absence of some sort of seniority list. Are you saying that will occur? So, the most senior dudes would be those with access to the best "agents", a sort of union on a person by person basis?

Can I be a free agent?

I see the breakdown of unions in this profession as inevitable. It will be every man or woman for themselves. I don't see us ever going on strike like we did in 1998, because of what would happen. Our leaders know it, ALPA knows it, and NWA management certainly know it. I mean heck if it financially weakened us and there was a merger we might get screwed in a seniority integration under the grand guardianship of ALPA. As evidenced by the raw deal the US Airways pilots are getting, seniority means nothing.


I imagine there would be many pilots from TWA, US Airways, and others that would cross our ALPA picket line and spit on us in the process. I would be angry at the consequences, but more than likely my anger would be at the circumstances and ALPA. I don't know how I could blame a single pilot that had been screwed by this union who were acting on their own to "take it back." If an organization takes your dues, fails to protect and uphold it obligation to you, and then screws your career in the process, why should I or any ALPA pilot expect you to do anything other than what is in your own best interest. That is how the professional world operates outside of a union environment and that is what ALPA seems to want by continuing to make mistake after mistake.

I still am angry about J.J. Odonnell ordering us to not support PATCO and getting on TV, telling eveyone to fly and how safe it was. Funny how ended up with a Reagan administration appointment. At that point, I knew the demise of unionism in this profession was coming. It sent a very loud message, that pilots are only in it for themselves. Now that we are here, I will hold no animosity toward anyone who individually acts in their own best interest. How could I, when this is what we have all embraced for the last 26 years. Hell, we have had MEC chairmen in ALPA who were former SCABS all in the pursuit in expanding the base of dues payers. To all the US Airways or TWA pilots, do whatever you have to the rest of your careers. This is one ALPA pilot who will never bear you any enmity.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Junebug,

USAPA did not sponsor the alleged sickout. It was a rank-and-file initiative.

The company was obviously concerned about the ramifications enough to send out a CBS Message on Thursday (that you likely read) with threats. The company leaned on the US Airways MEC very hard and Mike Minerva even sent a letter to Stephen Bradford because somebody took a USAPA sticker and wrote 9-21 SIC (CATCREW Sick Acronym) on it.

Here is a link to Minerva's letter.

Do you think the information in this link had anything to do with the result?

How about the information in this link?

Why don't you tell all of the story instead of telling only part of the story? I believe telling only part of the story is misrepresentation, which Jack Stephan clearly has stated is part of the problem with the AWA MEC.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[longing4piedmont]

I believe telling only part of the story is misrepresentation....

Pot, Kettle, Black

 

[Cactus737]

Everybody,

I haven't been here in a while (hold your applause) and I see I haven't missed much. Frankly, I stopped coming because I realized the futility of the banter here. I was venting MY frustrations, as are most other people here, but at the end of the day it doesn't get either of us anything.

In reality, I've been treated extremely well by East crews when I've traveled on East metal, and I've gone out of my way to make East crews comfortable when they've been traveling on one of my flights. There's something to be said for that, and it's made me feel stupid when I reflect on some of the things I've posted here. What has also helped change my attitude is when I picture Parker sitting in his office salivating over how he plans to take advantage of us all.

I don't know what the answer is, but I do have an idea of what won't work.

USAPA is one idea that won't work (at least now). Perhaps if USAPA were being started a few years from now, there'd be a reasonable chance of success. So let's go down this USAPA road for a bit and see where it will get us:

USAPA narrowly wins the election and begins attempting to "negotiate seniority" to the detriment of the West pilots:

• The West pilots don't pay dues, and do everything they can to undermine the new union.
• ALPA continues to vigorously defend the Nicolau Award to reinforce the legal precedent of the finality of binding arbitration.
• The West pilots pool their resources and file multiple DFR lawsuits against USAPA. ALPA helps in any way they can.
• The company takes advantage of the turmoil, and starts moving flying around to the lowest bidder (no the East is not the lowest bidder - the lower pay rates are offset by the higher longevity). Therefore, no guarantee that the East captures *their* attrition. USAPA doesn't defend the TA violations because it doesn't intend upon complying with the TA.
• ALPA helps the West pilots with litigation, etc, pro bono, and doesn't risk a DFR suit from the East pilots because they're no longer the bargaining agent.
• Meanwhile, everybody still keeps working for their current wages. USAPA doesn't have the resources to get organized, negotiate away the Nicolau Award, defend DFR lawsuits, AND negotiate a raise wtih the company.
• USAPA supporters begin to encounter FAA enforcement action and medical issues, and realize that USAPA is ill equiped to represent them in these issues like ALPA was able to.

And USA320 - it hasn't required much research to learn that you don't even have any credibility with your own pilots, so save your threats for somebody who is taking your seriously. Also, I think even us "rookies" have been around long enough to know that threats are nothing but a sign of desperation and weakness. I'm glad that you believe in what you're doing, but if I were you, I'd make contingency plans. I certainly have, and some of them are detailed above.

So now let's think about how Parker is going to try to use this to HIS advantage. Perhaps we can all at least agree that none of us want that? We can also agree that he and his drinking buddies are the ONLY ones who have benefited from this merger? Maybe Parker trying to screw us might be good common ground for us to begin moving somewhere together.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Phoenix]

....I have said the same thing many times here. The East MEC has been completely negligent in their responsibility to manage the East pilot's expectations.

True colors shining through. If you don't see the problem with that postition then you are part of it. Silver ALPA wings... the true meaning of silver.

 

[LCC_#1]

Everybody,

I haven't been here in a while (hold your applause) and I see I haven't missed much. Frankly, I stopped coming because I realized the futility of the banter here. I was venting MY frustrations, as are most other people here, but at the end of the day it doesn't get either of us anything.

In reality, I've been treated extremely well by East crews when I've traveled on East metal, and I've gone out of my way to make East crews comfortable when they've been traveling on one of my flights. There's something to be said for that, and it's made me feel stupid when I reflect on some of the things I've posted here. What has also helped change my attitude is when I picture Parker sitting in his office salivating over how he plans to take advantage of us all.

I agree with most of what you have written. When both sides realize the problem isn't east-west, but the inept management, we will ALL be stronger.

As far as USAPA, I only have one problem with their organizing. ALPA is a useless, beaurocratic mess whose interest consist of little more than collecing money and making appearances with Washington politicians. And AFA ain't much better. I honestly feel ALL US Airways pilots would be better of with an inhouse union. The problem I have is the reason for forming USAPA. Had the Nic award suited the East pilots, we wouldn't even be hearing the letters USAPA. Right from the start, the intent is flawed. Since the senority issue (correct me if I am wrong) probably won't/can't be changed just because a new union is voted in, I feel it would behoove the East AND West pilots to look at their OVERALL representation...not just Nic. If unhappy with other elimates of ALPA, perhaps US pilots SHOULD be independant.

BTW, before people start the "it's none of your biz" crap, most pilots are very professional, but since Nic, there has been an increasing amount of pisss poor attitudes It's not fair to take this out on the other flight crews.

 

[Jetz]

I am one of those east pilots who want’s to move on and close an ugly chapter in our history. West may think they have won, but really the opposite is true: what goes around…one day you too will see the injustice. I sent in my USAPA card to send a message to the spineless ALPO leaders who hind behind cushy jobs while the rest of us bust our ass keeping this Company going, but it is clear the Nic Award will stand after the EC decisions.

I now see my viable options as follows:

(1) Voting in USAPA means I will continue to work like a dog for years to come, everyone profiting from my hard labor except me. I think the soonest USAPA can present us a contract would be 2011. For what, attrition? Also, there is some doubt in my mind whether USAPA can exist with endless lawsuits from the west. GMAFB, I need money and some quality of life before I retire. I will upgrade in the next year or two with or without Nic as long as age 65 is not changed.

(2) Get a contract right now with fences via the JNC. I am really tired of working and making less each year. I want to see what is presented before I make a decision. I don’t understand what the ALPO idiots are doing by not participating in the process now that the EC made it clear they will continue according to the TA. For crying out loud, ALPO is going to let big daddy and the west do our negotiating for us? What a bunch of weasels.

(3) Do nothing and work under 93 until we ratify a new contract sometime around 2011, at which point we will have captured most of our attrition. I don’t know if it’s financially worth the wait since it’s impossible to know how many west pilots will steal any of our attrition. Most likely there is minimal impact here that certainly would not justify turning down 35-45% raise and a much better life. I don’t have a whole lot of time left so it’s a big sacrifice for the younger crowd to ask me to hold out without a raise so they can “get theirs.†I think the lower ¼ of our list will bear the biggest impact from the Nic award if things unfold in the worst possible way.

Rode on an east metal jumpseat about two weeks ago. Both pilots essentially said the same thing. "The seniority battle is over, let's just move on and get the best contract possible."

I was somewhat surprised and asked about the "resolve" that USA320 talks about constantly. They said that a lot of east pilots are pissed at ALPA but that "this horse is clearly quite dead, and beating it further serves no purpose." (Their words, not mine.)

The east MEC must be trying to position themselves for political cover. By staying out of JNC talks they force national to negotiate on their behalf and a TA goes out for a vote in three to five months time.

This allows the east MEC political cover no matter which way the east membership votes.

If the TA is voted down they loose nothing. If it passes they can through up their hands and say "Hey we towed the hard line but you guys chose otherwise."

Either way they keep flying their union desks. It's still working after years of delivering nothing but false hope. You've got to give these guys credit.

 

[Bud8EE]

I am one of those east pilots who want’s to move on and close an ugly chapter in our history. West may think they have won, but really the opposite is true: what goes around…one day you too will see the injustice. I sent in my USAPA card to send a message to the spineless ALPO leaders who hind behind cushy jobs while the rest of us bust our ass keeping this Company going, but it is clear the Nic Award will stand after the EC decisions.

I now see my viable options as follows:

(1) Voting in USAPA means I will continue to work like a dog for years to come, everyone profiting from my hard labor except me. I think the soonest USAPA can present us a contract would be 2011. For what, attrition? Also, there is some doubt in my mind whether USAPA can exist with endless lawsuits from the west. GMAFB, I need money and some quality of life before I retire. I will upgrade in the next year or two with or without Nic as long as age 65 is not changed.

(2) Get a contract right now with fences via the JNC. I am really tired of working and making less each year. I want to see what is presented before I make a decision. I don’t understand what the ALPO idiots are doing by not participating in the process now that the EC made it clear they will continue according to the TA. For crying out loud, ALPO is going to let big daddy and the west do our negotiating for us? What a bunch of weasels.

(3) Do nothing and work under 93 until we ratify a new contract sometime around 2011, at which point we will have captured most of our attrition. I don’t know if it’s financially worth the wait since it’s impossible to know how many west pilots will steal any of our attrition. Most likely there is minimal impact here that certainly would not justify turning down 35-45% raise and a much better life. I don’t have a whole lot of time left so it’s a big sacrifice for the younger crowd to ask me to hold out without a raise so they can “get theirs.†I think the lower ¼ of our list will bear the biggest impact from the Nic award if things unfold in the worst possible way.

 

[Bud8EE]

I am one of those east pilots who want’s to move on and close an ugly chapter in our history. West may think they have won, but really the opposite is true: what goes around…one day you too will see the injustice. I sent in my USAPA card to send a message to the spineless ALPO leaders who hind behind cushy jobs while the rest of us bust our ass keeping this Company going, but it is clear the Nic Award will stand after the EC decisions.

I now see my viable options as follows:

(1) Voting in USAPA means I will continue to work like a dog for years to come, everyone profiting from my hard labor except me. I think the soonest USAPA can present us a contract would be 2011. For what, attrition? Also, there is some doubt in my mind whether USAPA can exist with endless lawsuits from the west. GMAFB, I need money and some quality of life before I retire. I will upgrade in the next year or two with or without Nic as long as age 65 is not changed.

(2) Get a contract right now with fences via the JNC. I am really tired of working and making less each year. I want to see what is presented before I make a decision. I don’t understand what the ALPO idiots are doing by not participating in the process now that the EC made it clear they will continue according to the TA. For crying out loud, ALPO is going to let big daddy and the west do our negotiating for us? What a bunch of weasels.

(3) Do nothing and work under 93 until we ratify a new contract sometime around 2011, at which point we will have captured most of our attrition. I don’t know if it’s financially worth the wait since it’s impossible to know how many west pilots will steal any of our attrition. Most likely there is minimal impact here that certainly would not justify turning down 35-45% raise and a much better life. I don’t have a whole lot of time left so it’s a big sacrifice for the younger crowd to ask me to hold out without a raise so they can “get theirs.†I think the lower ¼ of our list will bear the biggest impact from the Nic award if things unfold in the worst possible way.

Will you blame those lower 1/4(some 20+ years) that bear the "impact" for scabbing your job, if they opportunity arises and they feel the need to "get theirs" and its the only way to recover. You may be angry but you will have asked for it, as I fear we all have.