AAR to hire 200 mechanics, thanks to Delta

[topDawg]

http://www.wthr.com/story/13532227/aar-looks-to-hire-200-aircraft-mechanics

"AAR already has about a thousand workers at the Indianapolis International Airport. It is hiring more workers because of new maintenance contracts from Delta Air Lines."

What is Delta sending out now?

 

[DalMD88]

Rumor around the floor is AeroMexico is losing the MD88 work due to problems with the FAA. If that isn't true, which may be the case. The work might be for the 738 PSV. The last visit of the series takes about a month of dock time. We really don't have the space to tie up a tail dock for that long. The first planes were recently done by one of the vendors, which one I can't recall. There may need to be two lines at a time to accomplish this check as the fleet ages. All of the other 738 work is still being done inhouse. We might even see more of the A320 work come inhouse.

 

[WorldTraveler]

DAL,
can you give us a quick update/summary on what hangar maintenance is being done in DL North/former NW facilities?... and conversely what formerly NW work has been brought to PMDL facillities? And finally any plans that you know of to bring more work in-house that NW was outsourcing.. .in either PMDL or PMNW locations?

Either of your scenarios says that if MD80 related, it is not new work and if it is 738 PSVs, then it is because DL doesn't have the space... so the question is what work can be brought in using other facilities... and does DL need to "completely equip" any existing space in order to use it for heavy maintenance... ie DL had hangars in a couple locations that they got rid of in BK but how much support equipment would DL need to activate any additional in-house maintenance and in what locations might that happen since apparently the TOC has no more space?

 

[DAL Mech]

DAL,
can you give us a quick update/summary on what hangar maintenance is being done in DL North/former NW facilities?... and conversely what formerly NW work has been brought to PMDL facillities? And finally any plans that you know of to bring more work in-house that NW was outsourcing.. .in either PMDL or PMNW locations?

Either of your scenarios says that if MD80 related, it is not new work and if it is 738 PSVs, then it is because DL doesn't have the space... so the question is what work can be brought in using other facilities... and does DL need to "completely equip" any existing space in order to use it for heavy maintenance... ie DL had hangars in a couple locations that they got rid of in BK but how much support equipment would DL need to activate any additional in-house maintenance and in what locations might that happen since apparently the TOC has no more space?

I assume you mean the hangars here in ATL. The DL North hangar is being used by ASA. The former NW hangar is condemned, hazmat reasons.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I assume you mean the hangars here in ATL. The DL North hangar is being used by ASA. The former NW hangar is condemned, hazmat reasons.

actually, I mean all heavy maintenance facilities throughout the DL system.
I do know that DL gave up DL North in BK along w/ other maintenance facilities - and so far as I know, NW had little remaining heavy maintenance capabilities left... but that is my question.... where does DL have heavy maintenance capabilities it could develop?
You can also refresh us what type of work DL north did pre-BK but I am also pretty sure that giving up DL north was part of a larger package of ATL-specific items DL wanted in BK but I can't remember all of the details. My point is that I'm not sure how much DL really gave up in usable heavy maintenance facilities in BK other that DFW (which I know was a fairly busy facility at one time) and.... (you help me fill in the blank). When you add in that NW had very limited heavy maintenance capabilities, it sounds to me that DL doesn't have much ability to bring more work in-house without significantly investing in new facilities.... which is probably why they are contracting out the least profitable, most space intensive work and keeping higher value, less space intensive space in-house. Is that a fair assessment both of where DL is in terms of its previous maintenance capabilities and current motives for outsourcing?

 

[DalMD88]

I don't know much about MSP. Besides line mtc they are doing a MD88 'c'check and a MD88 interior mod line. I don't have any idea how much more space they have. I think the limitation at this time is experienced mechanics. In the past couple of months there have been about a 100 new hires into the MSP hangar.

All the rest of the hangar space we really have is ATL. Yes, we have hangars in SLC, CVG, SEA,and BOS. Those are line hangars, They are set up to do 'A' checks and support the line non routine work. ATL is pretty full. We have three widebody bays dedicated to contract work. The six other bays are usually set up for PSV work. 1 does 737(winglet mod also), 2 is MD88 letter check, 3 is 737/757PSV, 4 is 757PSV, 5 is 777/767PSV and 6 is A320/767PSV. That is the usual set up. Last summer we had a 767PSV line in 5.5 also. Bay two usually has three MD88's in their care and until Jan bay three is doing two MD88 interior mods. The only NW planes in our care are the few A320/319 checks. There is no room to bring any of the true HMV work back in house without adding space. The managenment has said that is not going to happen. Even if we reopened the TPA hangar, I think we still are on the hook for it, it would only add two narrowbody bays with t-taildocks.

The other obstacle to bringing more work inhouse is the workforce. We lost a lot of experience since 2001. We lost many to retirement programs and almost all of the new hires to furloughs. The furloughs wiped out about two thirds of those hired after 97. They just didn't come back during the recalls. Some of the resent hires have experience, but most are wet ticket AMTs.

 

[Bob Owens]

They just didn't come back during the recalls. Some of the resent hires have experience, but most are wet ticket AMTs.

Delta isnt the only airine thats getting a dose of reality, the industry killed the profession and they are starting to see what they have wrought. At AA we had around 300 guys on the recall list, when the company started doing recalls they were shocked that those on the top of the list, the ones with the most time, were turning down the recall, they started calling 30 to 40 at a time. They went through the whole list and they only got around 20 guys to show up. One of those who came back told me it was a hard decision, he was making more money in his new job but he liked working on airplanes. He told me to go for the money no matter what it takes, even if he gets laid off as a result, because he figured that if he was laid off and we got the money at least he knew he could one day return to what he liked doing and make a living at it.

Recently AA started recalling at LAX, they exhausted the list there as well, very few returned, many said YES to the recall and simply didnt show.

We had a bargaining chip, in order to be a line mechanic you needed two years experience, but as usual our union let the company off the hook and the company eliminated the experience requirement. Now AA can hire line mechanics right out of school. Thats OK, we will make sure that we educate them , six months of working weekends, holidays and nights with no reasonable expecation that things will get better and the turnover will be faster than the schools can pump them out. We would do these kids a favor by going directly to the schools and showing them what they really have to look forward to. I remember back in 86, when we had a Junior Mechanic program we had several guys quit when they realized that they would spend the rest of their youthfull weekend nights working instead of socializing and partying, at least back then they could see a fairly decent wage in the future, now they dont even have that!

Normally when two companies merge you see mass layoffs, despite the merger it looks like Delta is hiring as well.

15 million unemployed, but how many of them hold A&Ps and are looking to subject themsevles to these scumbags anymore? Apparently not many. And the FAA is only issueing out around 3000 A&Ps a year, not even enough to take care of General Aviation, where you probably wont have to work nights, weekends or live in a high cost area.

 

[southwind]

Well, in a perfect world everyone would work 9 to 5 Mon. through Fri.

If someone wants a job and needs the money, they should be willing to work whatever hours given them !

 

[Bob Owens]

Well, in a perfect world everyone would work 9 to 5 Mon. through Fri.

If someone wants a job and needs the money, they should be willing to work whatever hours given them !

Thats just it, obviously people with the skillsets we have dont need to accept the job with the money they are offering. The airlines arent used to this. They are so arrogant they still think that people will be willing to put up with their BS for the meager wages they are offering.

If they are having trouble finding people with 15million unemployed whats going to happen when the economy recovers and those who havent left yet because of the economy decide its time to go as well?

 

[DalMD88]

We had a bargaining chip, in order to be a line mechanic you needed two years experience, but as usual our union let the company off the hook and the company eliminated the experience requirement. Now AA can hire line mechanics right out of school. Thats OK, we will make sure that we educate them , six months of working weekends, holidays and nights with no reasonable expecation that things will get better and the turnover will be faster than the schools can pump them out. We would do these kids a favor by going directly to the schools and showing them what they really have to look forward to. I remember back in 86, when we had a Junior Mechanic program we had several guys quit when they realized that they would spend the rest of their youthfull weekend nights working instead of socializing and partying, at least back then they could see a fairly decent wage in the future, now they dont even have that!

Normally when two companies merge you see mass layoffs, despite the merger it looks like Delta is hiring as well.

15 million unemployed, but how many of them hold A&Ps and are looking to subject themsevles to these scumbags anymore? Apparently not many. And the FAA is only issueing out around 3000 A&Ps a year, not even enough to take care of General Aviation, where you probably wont have to work nights, weekends or live in a high cost area.

Dl used to have higher experience requirements for line also. We needed to go through a year long avionics program of 750hrs of instruction on your own time. Basiclly a AS degree without the English and History classes. They were having a tough time filling the slots so it changed into a six week Autoland school on company time and a crap load of study guide homework. We have been hiring off the street for years at high dollar stations like NYC, but even now new hires are going to ATL line. Like you I don't think many will last. That $0.58 premium for midnights wiith rotating off days does not make up for turning your life upside down.

 

[Vortilon]

Yes the writing is on the wall. Many potential A&Ps are looking at the reality of what it really is like to work at a major airline. Low pay, crappy benefits, working midnights, holidays, weekends, and learning about the reality of non rev travel. How many are going to drop $30K or more at Embry Riddle, Spartan, Northrop, or Aero Tech only to find the shell of a once good career when and if they graduate?

 

[WorldTraveler]

88,
Excellent summary of where DL is with respect of overhaul maintenance. DL might have gone into BK knowing full well that it had no intention of doing overhaul maintenance and thus got rid of much of the capabilities. Given that so many of the aspects of DL and NW’s bankruptcy appeared to be well thought out before they even filed (part of why they got in and out so quickly), I think they had a pretty good idea of what they wanted in maintenance capabilities post BK and post merger (which I also was determined before they filed).
I am also interested in knowing how much non overhaul maintenance of the PMNW fleet is being done in-house, esp. things that NW contracted out.
As for the wages and qualifications of mechanics, I think it is a tribute to the skills that aviation mechanics have that they can move to other industries and do well. In many respects, aviation mechanics are atypical of many airline workers. Those who argue that pilots have such strong unions will do well to remember that pilot salaries are completely tied to the aviation industry. Outside of military aviation and some business aviation, there is very little transferability of skills with pilots so they have no choice but to make their unions strong and effective.
Keep in mind that if DL or other carriers believe it is worthwhile to do maintenance in-house but then faces an exodus of mechanics after investing in training, they will have no choice but to raise the pay – that will benefit you all and the profession. Given that there is a long lead process for training mechanics to have the necessary experience, it is costly for airlines to lose those they have trained.
I certainly hope that we will see DL lead the industry in bringing more work back in house.

Vortilon,
there is obviously a cost-benefit tradeoff for everyone w/ respect to their career choices. If working in the middle of the night w/ small premiums is the best they can get, they will stay with the job they have. Given other options, they might well switch.

 

[topDawg]

I don't know much about MSP. Besides line mtc they are doing a MD88 'c'check and a MD88 interior mod line. I don't have any idea how much more space they have. I think the limitation at this time is experienced mechanics. In the past couple of months there have been about a 100 new hires into the MSP hangar.

All the rest of the hangar space we really have is ATL. Yes, we have hangars in SLC, CVG, SEA,and BOS. Those are line hangars, They are set up to do 'A' checks and support the line non routine work. ATL is pretty full. We have three widebody bays dedicated to contract work. The six other bays are usually set up for PSV work. 1 does 737(winglet mod also), 2 is MD88 letter check, 3 is 737/757PSV, 4 is 757PSV, 5 is 777/767PSV and 6 is A320/767PSV. That is the usual set up. Last summer we had a 767PSV line in 5.5 also. Bay two usually has three MD88's in their care and until Jan bay three is doing two MD88 interior mods. The only NW planes in our care are the few A320/319 checks. There is no room to bring any of the true HMV work back in house without adding space. The managenment has said that is not going to happen. Even if we reopened the TPA hangar, I think we still are on the hook for it, it would only add two narrowbody bays with t-taildocks.

The other obstacle to bringing more work inhouse is the workforce. We lost a lot of experience since 2001. We lost many to retirement programs and almost all of the new hires to furloughs. The furloughs wiped out about two thirds of those hired after 97. They just didn't come back during the recalls. Some of the resent hires have experience, but most are wet ticket AMTs.

And TPA is done for Delta. PIMCO took over the building not to long ago.

I can't really think of any place they could add hangars with out building something. DFW has gone to AA, TPA to PIMCO, LAX the low bay is being used for AA GSE work i believe, the DC10 hangar Delta still uses as needed (as does VX I believe) but that would only be one bay from what i remember. DLNorth is now with ASA. I'm not sure what happened to the ORD building(anyone?) The SFO hangar is now a SQ cargo building. They *could* build a hangar on the south side of ATL(where the old NW hangar is now) but not sure how big it could be. (looking at Google Earth they may be able to fit a TOC1 size building in that space.)

DL88 Could/would DL start running PSV lines in SLC and or CVG?

 

[Bob Owens]

Yes the writing is on the wall. Many potential A&Ps are looking at the reality of what it really is like to work at a major airline. Low pay, crappy benefits, working midnights, holidays, weekends, and learning about the reality of non rev travel. How many are going to drop $30K or more at Embry Riddle, Spartan, Northrop, or Aero Tech only to find the shell of a once good career when and if they graduate?

Maybe, as a public service we should try and organize a nationwide canvassing of A&P schools in major Urban areas and let these kids know what they are getting into. Show them how much wages and benifits have declined, the instability of the job due to the portability of assetts and how the government helps the carriers supress our wages while violating our basic rights by extracting our bodily fluids for analyisis without cause.

Of course, since Delta has no union we wouldnt expect those guys to exercise their rights because in a non-union shop the only rights you have are the rights to do whatever Delta wants you to do or leave. Just ask Ellen Simonetti.

Several years ago I did a leafletting campaign at two schools in NY telling those students what they had to look forward to. Needless to say there was a lot of interest, many thanked me, but the students became irate at the school and its faculty. Our station manager sat on the Board of one of the schools and he called me into the office to let me know he had heard about it, and wasnt pleased. Said I nearly caused a riot. I told him sometimes the truth hurts(the bottom line of A&P schools that lie to students).


DL88, does Delta still hold the leases to the old Pan Am facilities at JFK?

 

[DalMD88]

CVG and JFK are not going to see PSV lines. CVG is basicly aone bay hangar. It fits one widebody or a couple of narrowbodies on a stagger. As for JFK I don't think we have any hangar facilty to use. Anything that requred a hangar is either ferried to BOS or they rent from AA. Engine changes are done on the open ramp. Getting a workforce for a PSV line in JFK would be very tough. We are having a hard enough time finding mechanics to staff the line station. BOS has a similar hangar to CVG, plus the high cost of living like JFK so nothing goes there. I'm not sure about SLC. About the only place we have any space is MSP. Management has said they have no desire to add anymore hangar space in the system.