I have to wonder how many passengers would like to fly with him given the statements he is making. Perhaps he hurts his own company by driving away passengers who read this board and they would wonder if he is qualified to fly given his judgment. Its quite obvious that he does not give a hoot how is behavior could effect others.
About Striking-most just dont get it
- Thread starter ua767fo
- Start date
Lets put it all into perspective....if ALPA or any other pilot group strikes and successfully shuts down an airline, then we all are equal.....in the unemployment line that is.
UA767fo If you work for United, go post on your own board - United's more likely to liquidate than U. Your house may self destruct, leave mine alone.
How's this for an option? You pay me the loss of an annual salary for the next nine years. At an F/O salary here at U that would be almost be a MILLION dollars of lost income should U file chapter 7. A strike by any group would put an end to this company. Are you willing to give me your hard earned dollars to make up our loss of wages should you decide that you cannot accept the current terms of employment? If you do not like your compensation package, then QUIT and leave mine alone. No one is forcing you to accept the current pay scale and benefits.
I bet you there are about 3,000 to 4,000 current furloughed airline pilots out there (all major airlines combined) that would be happy to accept a job at the current pay scale and benefits. So why don't you ask them how great the employment market place is?????
Yes my husband was a military officer, yes he has advanced degrees, two BS degrees (Business & Environmental) and two Masters degrees (HR and Environmental Engineering). SO WHAT. That and a $1.00 will buy us a cup of coffee. In this marketplace a 50-year old ex airline pilot with no current work experience in any field is not likely to make a six-figure income.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. A job with some pension is still better than no job and no pension
I do not have a problem with the termination of the Defined Benefit Plan to save this Company as long as management makes good (I know time to laugh) on a Defined Contribution Plan that is adequately funded. And if the Company goes Chapter 7 the plan will be terminated and there will be no other plan. HELLO do you get it???? It's going to be terminated it's just a matter if you can keep your day job or not.
Are we angry, upset, disappointed, feeling cheated and lied to? YES. Is my husband happy about all the give backs and loss of benefits (salary, position, health & pension)? NO. Is he happy that he will never be a Captain again, NO. Does he love to fly planes, YES. This is what he does. Any thing else is just a job. So that is why we want this Company to make it. He loves to fly planes. He makes a good living at it, even at current pay scales.
And this Company is more than it's Pilots, there are some 27,000 other people that depend on U for income and benefits. So go and burn your house down, just leave mine alone. Take your ego and find another profession. No wonder pilots get a bad reputation.
Also if you knew anything about the concept of a strike it is this. STRIKE when you have more to GAIN than to LOSE. If you have more to LOSE than GAIN you WAIT until the situation changes. So right now if you strike the company WILL liquidate, they are in BANKRUPTCY after all, and you lose. REMEMBER EASTERN AIRLINES where are they NOW?? So then you wait until the Company has the MONEY to pay the wages you demand and not go out of business. You have to have PATIENCE and understand the concepts, timing. That is the difference between stupidity and wisdom, patience & timing.
KJB
How's this for an option? You pay me the loss of an annual salary for the next nine years. At an F/O salary here at U that would be almost be a MILLION dollars of lost income should U file chapter 7. A strike by any group would put an end to this company. Are you willing to give me your hard earned dollars to make up our loss of wages should you decide that you cannot accept the current terms of employment? If you do not like your compensation package, then QUIT and leave mine alone. No one is forcing you to accept the current pay scale and benefits.
I bet you there are about 3,000 to 4,000 current furloughed airline pilots out there (all major airlines combined) that would be happy to accept a job at the current pay scale and benefits. So why don't you ask them how great the employment market place is?????
Yes my husband was a military officer, yes he has advanced degrees, two BS degrees (Business & Environmental) and two Masters degrees (HR and Environmental Engineering). SO WHAT. That and a $1.00 will buy us a cup of coffee. In this marketplace a 50-year old ex airline pilot with no current work experience in any field is not likely to make a six-figure income.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. A job with some pension is still better than no job and no pension
I do not have a problem with the termination of the Defined Benefit Plan to save this Company as long as management makes good (I know time to laugh) on a Defined Contribution Plan that is adequately funded. And if the Company goes Chapter 7 the plan will be terminated and there will be no other plan. HELLO do you get it???? It's going to be terminated it's just a matter if you can keep your day job or not.
Are we angry, upset, disappointed, feeling cheated and lied to? YES. Is my husband happy about all the give backs and loss of benefits (salary, position, health & pension)? NO. Is he happy that he will never be a Captain again, NO. Does he love to fly planes, YES. This is what he does. Any thing else is just a job. So that is why we want this Company to make it. He loves to fly planes. He makes a good living at it, even at current pay scales.
And this Company is more than it's Pilots, there are some 27,000 other people that depend on U for income and benefits. So go and burn your house down, just leave mine alone. Take your ego and find another profession. No wonder pilots get a bad reputation.
Also if you knew anything about the concept of a strike it is this. STRIKE when you have more to GAIN than to LOSE. If you have more to LOSE than GAIN you WAIT until the situation changes. So right now if you strike the company WILL liquidate, they are in BANKRUPTCY after all, and you lose. REMEMBER EASTERN AIRLINES where are they NOW?? So then you wait until the Company has the MONEY to pay the wages you demand and not go out of business. You have to have PATIENCE and understand the concepts, timing. That is the difference between stupidity and wisdom, patience & timing.
KJB
Looks like the crowd is ready for a stoning, rocks are in both hands but the walls of Crystal City are impenetrable.
Time to put on the helmet and hunker down in the foxhole…
Time to put on the helmet and hunker down in the foxhole…
[blockquote]
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On 2/11/2003 5:27:27 PM ua767fo wrote:
Somehow....it didnt come across so here goes again:
A large percentage of airline pilots are military officers, or former officers. We have gone on to become astronauts, senators, congressmen, presidents, ceo's, doctors, lawyers. Some of us have elected to become airline pilots, of our own choosing. Due to the way the industry is structured, we are blue collar labor, like mechanics, customer service agents, baggage handlers, ect.
For anyone to think that we cant make it, or need an airline for our livelyhoods your sadly mistaken. When pushed to far, we will burn the house down. We wont stand to get burned beyond a certain point, and if that means taking a big business down, we will. And if that means shutting down your business because you depend on a certain airline, too bad.
Enough said, if it burns down.....too bad...
Denver, Colorado
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[/blockquote]
I think that may just very well happen at UA, however I am not sure why you are posting this message on the US board, we have every intention of coming to fair and equitable solution with our pilots - go focus your energy on UA they need your help.
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On 2/11/2003 5:27:27 PM ua767fo wrote:
Somehow....it didnt come across so here goes again:
A large percentage of airline pilots are military officers, or former officers. We have gone on to become astronauts, senators, congressmen, presidents, ceo's, doctors, lawyers. Some of us have elected to become airline pilots, of our own choosing. Due to the way the industry is structured, we are blue collar labor, like mechanics, customer service agents, baggage handlers, ect.
For anyone to think that we cant make it, or need an airline for our livelyhoods your sadly mistaken. When pushed to far, we will burn the house down. We wont stand to get burned beyond a certain point, and if that means taking a big business down, we will. And if that means shutting down your business because you depend on a certain airline, too bad.
Enough said, if it burns down.....too bad...
Denver, Colorado
----------------
[/blockquote]
I think that may just very well happen at UA, however I am not sure why you are posting this message on the US board, we have every intention of coming to fair and equitable solution with our pilots - go focus your energy on UA they need your help.
Todd B
Advanced
Don't worry, fellow airline toilers at USAirways. I am sure ua767fo will get a chance to (literally) put his money where his mouth is when UA management starts to go after our pensions here at UA. It will be an interesting year.
Come on folks. That's no way to talk to a future Senator, Astronaut or even a lawyer. Well maybe a lawyer.
![9.gif']](/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F%5Bimg+src%3D%27http%3A%2F%2Fwww.usaviation.com%2Fidealbb%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2F9.gif%27%5D&hash=7c964d57bf1a67b752c7d6719c1747f7)
PITbull
Veteran
[blockquote]
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On 2/13/2003 6:51:20 PM PineyBob wrote:
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http://biz.yahoo.com/fo/030213/2efbb6a9fa2...e8cbc3d8_1.html
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[/blockquote]
Piney,
Went on the website and got an excerpt of it below:
"If, that is, the unionized workers accept the changes. In January Tilton proposed to split off a big chunk of the carrier later this year and turn it into a low-cost, no frills airline, rumored to be named Starfish, that could compete with JetBlue (NasdaqNM:JBLU - News) and Southwest (NYSE:LUV - News). Pilots now making $225,000 (down from $316,000 last year) could be forced to trade down to jobs paying a maximum of $153,000.
Continental (NYSE:CAL - News) and US Airways (OTC BB:UAWGQ.OB - News) have gone the low-cost route before, without success. "If this is what they want to do, it's a nonstarter," stated Paul Whiteford, chairman of the 8,500-member United chapter of the Airline Pilots Association. It would, he added, "lead to the death of United Airlines." In other words a strike would push the airline out of business via the same route Eastern traversed.
By mid-March United must get its unions to agree to permanently hack off $2.4 billion in annual pay, or about 34% of their total. (Labor consumed half of UAL's $14.3 billion in revenue last year.) Mechanics and flight attendants have been publicly assailing Tilton for not offering a concrete proposal for them to consider. If no agreement is reached, United must petition the bankruptcy court to impose concessions.
To line up $1.5 billion in debtor-in-possession financing, United had to pay an unusually large 5% commission for a $300 million portion, plus a percentage point more in interest than WorldCom, Kmart or Adelphia paid. The postbankruptcy lenders are first in line during a liquidation, but even so they are taking a significant risk. If the workers won't come to work for reduced pay, then no lender is going to come out whole.
So far United has yet to buzz-cut any of its aircraft leasing deals. In fact, it just agreed to hold on to 154 of its 463 leased planes under the same old terms. But if the carrier starts offering, say, 25 cents on the dollar, big aircraft lessors like GE Capital (which owns 20 United planes) may just repossess and try to redeploy the jets to overseas carriers. When that market is saturated, the only thing to do with a commercial jet plane may be to park it in the desert in the Southwest, along with the 1,800 other jets already there.
Ready to feast on any leftovers are rivals like American, which would benefit from O'Hare's slots and routes. Continental lusts after United's Denver hub and its London Heathrow routes. Other hubs up for grabs would include Washington Dulles, San Francisco and Los Angeles. Delta, US Airways and Northwest would likely jump into the fray. With 20% of traffic already, and a strong tailwind at their backs, the discounters like Southwest, JetBlue and AirTran may be the biggest winners of all."
PITbull writes:
Maybe I am being way too cynical, but again, the whole "plan" depends on Labor according to the first sentence above. It also goes on to say that UAL hasn't asked for any CUTS from its leasing deals...what's with the waiting? Or, does labor have to go first again?
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On 2/13/2003 6:51:20 PM PineyBob wrote:
----------------
http://biz.yahoo.com/fo/030213/2efbb6a9fa2...e8cbc3d8_1.html
----------------
[/blockquote]
Piney,
Went on the website and got an excerpt of it below:
"If, that is, the unionized workers accept the changes. In January Tilton proposed to split off a big chunk of the carrier later this year and turn it into a low-cost, no frills airline, rumored to be named Starfish, that could compete with JetBlue (NasdaqNM:JBLU - News) and Southwest (NYSE:LUV - News). Pilots now making $225,000 (down from $316,000 last year) could be forced to trade down to jobs paying a maximum of $153,000.
Continental (NYSE:CAL - News) and US Airways (OTC BB:UAWGQ.OB - News) have gone the low-cost route before, without success. "If this is what they want to do, it's a nonstarter," stated Paul Whiteford, chairman of the 8,500-member United chapter of the Airline Pilots Association. It would, he added, "lead to the death of United Airlines." In other words a strike would push the airline out of business via the same route Eastern traversed.
By mid-March United must get its unions to agree to permanently hack off $2.4 billion in annual pay, or about 34% of their total. (Labor consumed half of UAL's $14.3 billion in revenue last year.) Mechanics and flight attendants have been publicly assailing Tilton for not offering a concrete proposal for them to consider. If no agreement is reached, United must petition the bankruptcy court to impose concessions.
To line up $1.5 billion in debtor-in-possession financing, United had to pay an unusually large 5% commission for a $300 million portion, plus a percentage point more in interest than WorldCom, Kmart or Adelphia paid. The postbankruptcy lenders are first in line during a liquidation, but even so they are taking a significant risk. If the workers won't come to work for reduced pay, then no lender is going to come out whole.
So far United has yet to buzz-cut any of its aircraft leasing deals. In fact, it just agreed to hold on to 154 of its 463 leased planes under the same old terms. But if the carrier starts offering, say, 25 cents on the dollar, big aircraft lessors like GE Capital (which owns 20 United planes) may just repossess and try to redeploy the jets to overseas carriers. When that market is saturated, the only thing to do with a commercial jet plane may be to park it in the desert in the Southwest, along with the 1,800 other jets already there.
Ready to feast on any leftovers are rivals like American, which would benefit from O'Hare's slots and routes. Continental lusts after United's Denver hub and its London Heathrow routes. Other hubs up for grabs would include Washington Dulles, San Francisco and Los Angeles. Delta, US Airways and Northwest would likely jump into the fray. With 20% of traffic already, and a strong tailwind at their backs, the discounters like Southwest, JetBlue and AirTran may be the biggest winners of all."
PITbull writes:
Maybe I am being way too cynical, but again, the whole "plan" depends on Labor according to the first sentence above. It also goes on to say that UAL hasn't asked for any CUTS from its leasing deals...what's with the waiting? Or, does labor have to go first again?
PITbull
Veteran
Piney,
In my own time, I will give Dave credit. I just can't bring myself there yet.
I wasn't contrasting U and UA, I am actually comparing them as quite similar; going down the exact same path.
U just happened to be first, and Dave and crew's intent, I think, was NOT to have all the other carriers follow suit. U's intent was to have the competing edge. Give the other carriers til the end of the year, and we will all be the same.
Then what?
All the Majors are going to implement their "plan" using BK and Liquidation, FEAR as their "A's in the hole". In my crystall ball I can see that in the future the Industry will be competing as "low cost" across the board.
What would we all have gained, except for the History books to read that all the carriers are lean, mean, with no waste anywhere competing against one another.
However, to maintain the "low cost status", financial suffering among the "rank and file"
employees of these fine carriers will be ongoing.
Do you know how difficult it is to "raise the bar". Especially in the future? All the carriers will be either a) making the same profit, or B) losing the same money. Who will have an edge? The low cost carriers did for so long because they competed against the "High Cost Carriers", but now we have joined their ranks, and so will every major carrier out there. Listen to what AA is saying now as well. Once acheiving the "low cost" status, none of these carriers will allow the wage "bar" to be raised. Unions will not be able to achieve this without a major "job action" in the future.
And with Senator McCains efforts to amend the RLA, Unions will have to reinvent themselves and join forces quick.
In my own time, I will give Dave credit. I just can't bring myself there yet.
I wasn't contrasting U and UA, I am actually comparing them as quite similar; going down the exact same path.
U just happened to be first, and Dave and crew's intent, I think, was NOT to have all the other carriers follow suit. U's intent was to have the competing edge. Give the other carriers til the end of the year, and we will all be the same.
Then what?
All the Majors are going to implement their "plan" using BK and Liquidation, FEAR as their "A's in the hole". In my crystall ball I can see that in the future the Industry will be competing as "low cost" across the board.
What would we all have gained, except for the History books to read that all the carriers are lean, mean, with no waste anywhere competing against one another.
However, to maintain the "low cost status", financial suffering among the "rank and file"
employees of these fine carriers will be ongoing.
Do you know how difficult it is to "raise the bar". Especially in the future? All the carriers will be either a) making the same profit, or B) losing the same money. Who will have an edge? The low cost carriers did for so long because they competed against the "High Cost Carriers", but now we have joined their ranks, and so will every major carrier out there. Listen to what AA is saying now as well. Once acheiving the "low cost" status, none of these carriers will allow the wage "bar" to be raised. Unions will not be able to achieve this without a major "job action" in the future.
And with Senator McCains efforts to amend the RLA, Unions will have to reinvent themselves and join forces quick.
