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Additional widebody aircraft

Well I may get my wish soon. I absolutely believe that we are going to hear of a new aircraft order at the beginning of 2011. The buzz has been too strong and from too many angles and credible sources for me to think otherwise. Maybe Arpey is gonna let 2011 pass gearing up for significant growth in 2012. THEN we can compete!

And I agree with you. This past summer, when AA ordered more 738s, I predicted (in posts here and elsewhere) that AA would probably accelerate its 777-200ER order (several are scheduled for 2013-16). I don't think it will be 777-300s or large numbers of used JAL planes given that AA can get new Boeings to AA's exact specs in 12-18 months from notice to Boeing. Perhaps some 777-200LRs to compensate for the long-delayed 787-9s.

Hope you and everyone else at AA has a Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays.
 
FWAAA,
the uncomfortable thing about what I write is that I don't pick sides as to who to say is at fault in problems. Many of the AA mgmt supporters on various sites don't want to admit that AA has its own issues which are well beyond responsibility of labor to fix. Strategy and revenue issues are management's to fix, not labor. AA has its labor issues too and labor and revenue issues are related but to continue to believe that AA is delivering the revenue premiums which AA has historically delivered and which some thnk AA has is just factually wrong.

You higlight the premium travelers that fly AA on JFK to LAX so let's look at that market for an example. In the past 5 years (2005-2010), AA's share of the market has gone from 50% to 35%. While the market has grown by almost 1/3, AA's revenue has actually fallen. Oher competitors including JetBlue, Delta, Virgin America have all increased their share of the market - and taken share from AA. AA has maintained its 8% or so fare premiums relative to the market.

JFKLAX is one of the backbones of AA's domestic route system. When the market leader loses 15 points of share in a key market, someone has got to be asking who is making decisions regarding revenue - and you can't blame the employees for that.

Let's look at another key new market that both AA and DL opened... SEA; AA did it from ORD, DL did it from SEA. Granted both routes are fairly new but in the first weeks of operation, DL got 15% more revenue per seat on its SEA-PEK service than AA did from ORD. Further, AA's average fare on ORD-PEK was 33% lower than UA on the route. It is also worth noting that while AA and DL both got really bad slot arrival times into PEK, DL has managed to improve its arrival slot by 2 1/2 hrs for a 2100 arrival while AA still is arriving at 2330. I don't know how it happened but I know AA put out a press release saying that it was the Chinese government's fault that AA could not start the route at commercially viable times - even though that is exactly what they ended up doing.

Is that AA management's fault or the employees?

Is it possible that AA management's confrontation approach to dealing with so many groups including its employees is hindering the company from moving forward?

AA management may well have seen it coming that they can't compete on Asian routes out of ORD against UA so they tried to move the PEK route (or orignally applied from DFW) but that route was nixed by the pilots. So, AA has now tried to enter LAX-PVG only to have UA jump right on top of AA. I'm not a rocket scientist but given that UA is already stronger in Asia and has a pretty good track record at keeping AA from succeeding from ORD to Asia, I don't think it's too much to think that LAX to PVG will be another underperforming route for AA.

You talk about AA's missed strategic opportunities to acquire their way into Asia and I would agree with you.... but we have AA fans who argue that AA can grow their way into Asia yet don't want to hear that AA doesn't have a revenue premium relative to any US carrier on any route to Asia.
Further, while you and others want to hope that DL's NRT hub will whither up as HND opens up to US carriers, the simple reality is that DL is growing its NRT hub, adding seats to HND, AND adding more capacity outside of Japan than any other US airline. The fan contingent on one aviation forum were convinced DL was talking folly when it applied for HND routes - and even the analysts were shocked when DL ended up with half of the US carrier routes and now that the Japanese carriers have announced their schedules - 40% of all the capacity between the US and HND. So, not only will DL be the largest transpacific carrier at NRT, it will be at HND too. And since HND is a close-in airport and should be most desirable to local Japanese passengers, DL is better able to capture that traffic than to connect traffic to the rest of Asia that doesn't really care where it connects. Even if other US carriers gain more service to HND and improved slot times, the obsolescence of Tokyo will come because passengers flow over new nonstops that overfly Japan, not because that traffic moves from connecting at NRT on DL to connecting at HND on AA/JL.

AA acquired TW 10 years ago and has virtually nothing left to show for that merger/acquisition. RDU/BNA/SJC/STL all closed... .missed strategic opportunities.


Any notions of a major aircraft order require that AA's labor costs be competitive and that it can generate acceptable returns on those aircraft; neither of those are anywhere close to being reality right now.
Besides AA has a huge fleet of 772s right now; they just choose to use them predominantly on 8-10 hr flights to London and S. America.
 
You're kidding me right???? we have given them the tools they needed with several years of concessions, give backs, shared sacrifice. we have come up with dozens of ideas to save costs and streamline the operation only to be talked down to and shot down. I see thousands of dollars wasted everyday here at DFW, we've seen MILLIONS wasted on consultants and outside help. AA has had every chance in the world to fix the problem and has screwed the pooch time and time again. IMO, these guys and gals couldn't manage a sunset without screwing it up. I'm tired. Tired of the company not ressecting us and our union for selling us out and letting this drag on and on. Give me a decent, respectable contract for the work and responsability i take or lets shut the place down, and sell it off, scrap it and junk it. end of rant.


While I share your frustration with AA management in many issues. I believe you are the minority in regards to what to do. That does not mean
I would not strike if I have too but to " shut the place down,and sell if off ,scrpa it and junk it............" Well my friend many of us make
a living here and that is not the solution. If you are that angry why not look for work somewhere else.
Again I do believe AA has to do something to improve labor relations and they will have to come up with a way of making the unions
business partners instead of the enemy.
 
I'm not a rocket scientist but given that UA is already stronger in Asia and has a pretty good track record at keeping AA from succeeding from ORD to Asia, I don't think it's too much to think that LAX to PVG will be another underperforming route for AA.

Of course UA and DL have a leg up -- they have had extremely limited competition over the past 60 years. When you have a government sanctioned duopoly anchored by two strong carriers, anyone coming in late to the game will be at an automatic disadvantage, especially when 80% of the slots & frequencies remain in the hands of those two carriers.

That's changing slowly, starting with Japan. Let's see how Japan really starts to looks after Open Skies, Haneda, and JL/AA + UA/NH ATI get implemented.

DL and UA no longer have the ability to hoard all the slots, and the only benefit they're holding onto are beyond rights. And yes, those assets are of dubious value going forward when the 787 finally shows up on the trans-Pac.

Oh, and the notion that AA "slipped" into third place is pure BS. They are flying more ASM's to all three regions (LatAm, Eur, Asia) than they were two years ago. When you have the #2 and #3 carriers merging with the #4 and #5 carriers, you might as well just focus on running an airline people will want to fly on, because the only way to change how big your competition remains is to steal their customers. And let's not forget that those carriers saw no other options -- they couldn't organically grow big enough to succeed -- they had to merge. Merge because it's the only way you see yourself surviving in long term could be seen as the ultimate form of business failure.

WT is convinced that DL will conquer AA and steal all their customers. I'm sure there are some who may change sides. But there are also those who have been alienated and/or price gouged by DL/NW and UA all these years to Asia, and are glad to have an alternative. Just like Virgin is starting to make inroads on the transcons, AA is going to get customers who are sick of the incumbents.
 
But the TWU? They have their heads in the sand on this one. I'm sure Bob is going to post lots & lots of isolated data points that don't take into account other factors, but the fact remains that the only way AA is going to stay in the black and create job security is to get as close to a cost neutral agreement as they can.


Proof? What other factors?

E, take all the time you need. BTW, Bobs been sequestered in secret negotiations and can't post...........negotiations updates.........as the session isn't over.
 
Try searching the archives, Birdman. There's only seven or eight years worth of examples for you to go read.
 
Of course UA and DL have a leg up -- they have had extremely limited competition over the past 60 years. When you have a government sanctioned duopoly anchored by two strong carriers, anyone coming in late to the game will be at an automatic disadvantage, especially when 80% of the slots & frequencies remain in the hands of those two carriers.
Sorry, E, but I have to challenge you on this statement....
You do realize that it was AA AND UA that are the remaining two of the original four trunk carriers that received most of the preferential routes in the US - the other two being Eastern and TWA. DL never had access to the key domestic routes under the regulated area.
AA bought TW and DL scrambled after EA's collapse and was able to solidify DL's position as the number one carrier on the East Coast, a position that DL has not lost since EA's collapse 20 years ago.
Internationally, AA, DL, and UA all have bought their way into the international scene with the original chosen international carriers - Pan Am, Northwest, TWA, and Braniff all now history.
DL missed the opportunity to buy PA's LHR operation because UA moved faster (strategic blunder on DL's part) and so almost all of DL's Pan Am operation has been flown under Open Skies for most of the past 20 years. DL merged with NW just as Japan - the last remaining large Asian market that was not Open Skies either de facto or in reality open up to virtually unlimited flights and ATI/JVs. Based on DL's history in other parts of its network, they are not going to lose their market position in Japan where they fly one-third of all capacity between the US and Japan, more than the ATI/JV partnerships of oneworld or Star.

The notion that DL EVER had any a privileged or sheltered position is simply not accurate. DL has acquired and internally grown its way into every key global market with the Pan Am and Northwest acquisitions providing the bulk of DL's international route system. More of DL's current network reflects merger and acquisition than perhaps any other US airline.
The rest DL has grown internally and by taking advantage of strategic opportunities such as the opportunity to enter LHR from BOS and MIA as part of the AA-BA anti-trust agreement.

Further, it is AA that had its best premium revenue sources at LHR and Latin America, markets that have historically been limited access. AA was very smart to buy its way into those key markets but let's be clear that in far more competitive markets such as continental Europe, AA has fared much worse. You do realize that AA's continental Europe network is smaller than CO, DL, UA, or US?

Domestically, AA's best revenue now comes from DFW and MIA, markets in which AA has no hub competitor. It is precisely because MIA is among the largest international gateways but has no other US longhaul carrier other than AA that it presents a great opportunity for someone to challenge AA's dominance.

UA has been a major competitor to AA for a long time - but for most of the time, it was AA that had the advantage vis-a-vis revenue premiums and larger market shares in the highest value markets. It is precisely UA's recent aggressiveness in challenging/limiting AA's international growth at ORD - and now LAX - that has the tables turned, a trend that will likely extend to domestic markets with the CO merger.

I've never said that AA isn't growing. It is simply that other carriers have been and are growing more aggressively. It doesn't matter that AA has been growing if other carriers have been more successful at doing it.
And even though AA has been growing in some key markets, they have also closed four hubs in the past 15 years - far more than any other carrier and with it have lost much of the local market revenue that they once controlled.
Most recently, AA's pulldown of service at BOS and DL's buildup has allowed a long-standing change in market position to occur with DL now becoming the largest domestic and internaional network carrier.
While B6 has clearly done very well expanding at BOS and in the Caribbean it is apparent that some carriers like DL can exist alongside low fare carriers while AA has walked away from markets leaving them to WN and B6.
My concern expressed here regarding the AA-B6 agreement is that AA mgmt is painting the B6 codeshare as a win-win when in reality is that B6 has successfully pushed AA out of key markets and then signed a codeshare agreement so that AA buys seats on B6 flights in markets that AA abandoned...

My reason for posting here simply is that I bring a perspective to the AA discussion that few can or have. In an ongoing argumentive that pits AA management against employees with each blaming the other for AA's problems, I am simply saying that there is clearly enough blame to go around.
The vast majority of AA employees don't know the financial implications behind the strategic challenges AA faces and to simply say incessantly that AA has a labor cost problem is not at all the truth.
As I have shown, AA has a productivity problem - 10,000 too many employees producing the same amount of capacity compared to productivity rates at DL and UA. Despite what people like Bob want to argue, AA doing in-house overhauls doesn't account for all of that productivity gap.
I don't know AA's labor contracts well enough to know what AA mgmt could do to close the productivity gap which is the root of AA's labor cost problem. When AA is forced to fly ORD-PEK and directly compete against UA instead of flying DFW-PEK like it originally wanted because the APA wouldn't agree to the DFW-PEK route, then there is responsibility labor has to bear for the problem. How well each of the labor cost issues can be addressed by labor and management is something that AA mgmt and labor leaders have to figure out.

But to continue to believe that AA can effectively compete against low fare and network carriers that are larger and more cost efficient is simply not looking at the data that is available for anyone to see - if they want to.
AA has had some of the lowest financial results among network carriers for most of the decade. AA is leaving markets and/or competitors are entering markets and adding their own revenues with relative ease - which is why they keep doing it.

AA cannot and will not grow - and that means taking on a bunch of new aircraft until it can reverse its labor cost problems and ALSO stop competitor incursions into key AA markets.

I don't enjoy hammering away at AA's problems but those of us who remember the power which AA once had in the industry are dumbfounded at how AA has been reduced to a proverbial Samson which competitors can taunt.

Someone needs to tell the truth about aspects of AA's problems which others aren't or won't tell. Hopefully, employees and supporters (perhaps yourself) will act to change AA's course.

It is the time of year when we shift our attention to things more pleasant so I'm going to give it a rest for a while.

Perhaps the new year will bring some good news, competitive wins, and strategic changes for AA supporters and employees.
 
Try searching the archives, Birdman. There's only seven or eight years worth of examples for you to go read.

E, I'm sorry a few posts in this thread has gotten off topic but I didn't start it. While I don't post as often as some, I have been reading on almost a daily basis for as long as I can remember. The dominate theme that I recall over the years of debate is how the TWU has agreed to many concessions, well documented, that have put AA at a cost advantage over its competitors in regard to M&R. I won't be reviewing years of posts to find that which management proclaims, few believe, and not even Arpey can prove.
 
While I share your frustration with AA management in many issues. I believe you are the minority in regards to what to do. That does not mean
I would not strike if I have too but to " shut the place down,and sell if off ,scrpa it and junk it............" Well my friend many of us make
a living here and that is not the solution. If you are that angry why not look for work somewhere else.
Again I do believe AA has to do something to improve labor relations and they will have to come up with a way of making the unions
business partners instead of the enemy.
I depend on my AA paycheck as we all do and I'm too old to start over again and you are right, I am the minority here. Maybe that's why this has dragged on for 3 plus years, why management insults us (bricks), why the TWU sees no urgency to get a fair deal. Most here at DFW just want to do thier 1 or 2 gate calls or PS chk and get back to thier laptops and are ok with the status quo. With the way things are today that's understandable but I'm just tired of it. I guess I've reached my piont and hopefully one day you will reach yours and maybe, just maybe if enough of us get to that point, we can make a difference. Until then, I'll keep plugging along and the TWU will come up with another slogan and AA will lowball us again and one day someone like you might come up with a solution............
 
I depend on my AA paycheck as we all do and I'm too old to start over again and you are right, I am the minority here. Maybe that's why this has dragged on for 3 plus years, why management insults us (bricks), why the TWU sees no urgency to get a fair deal. Most here at DFW just want to do thier 1 or 2 gate calls or PS chk and get back to thier laptops and are ok with the status quo. With the way things are today that's understandable but I'm just tired of it. I guess I've reached my piont and hopefully one day you will reach yours and maybe, just maybe if enough of us get to that point, we can make a difference. Until then, I'll keep plugging along and the TWU will come up with another slogan and AA will lowball us again and one day someone like you might come up with a solution............
... sell some T-Shirts with the lettering on the back "Paste Contract-Time Slogan Here".
 
Birdman,
we could have answered the question about additional aircraft in one response by saying that AA management signed a contract for 787-9s (a significant size order) which will provide far more capability, growth potential, and cost advantage than any used aircraft AA could buy from JAL. But AA's contract with Boeing is dependent on pilot ratification of a new working agreement, providing the cost savings from the pilot group the company wants. To the best of my knowledge, the 787 contract is not dependent on a new contract from the TWU.
As with most threads on this forum, somehow the topic always manages to turn towards what the company has done to maintenance and the TWU when that does not appear to have anything to do with the topic of additional international widebody aircraft.
Apparently AA would be willing to move forward with a 787 acquisition solely with the right contract with the APA. It would then be AA mgmt's job to find a place to fly the plane and that is dependent on the revenue and competitive environment in place at that time. It also appears that AA mgmt believes that an agreement with the APA alone is necessary to change the direction of the company.

Since the 787 could be delivered to AA in less than five years dependent on a new contract with the APA, it seems all the more unlikely that AA would proceed with ordering new 772ERs which the 787-9 will surpass in nearly every respect or in acquiring used non-standard aircraft to the AA fleet, esp. given that AA mgmt does not have a history of keeping non-standard or used aircraft in the fleet. Further, the 787 order likely contains a provision to convert the 772 orders.

Most likely when the APA reaches an agreement with the company, the 787 order will move forward, AA's international growth plan will be set and the company at that point will have to find the best revenue opportunities for the aircraft.
 
Actually, the company does have a habit of holding onto non-standard aircraft. It just pre-dates your interest in airlines...

AA acquired some 15 727-227's from Braniff in 1980-1982, which lasted well into the 1990's. Since Alaska also had some -227s, it made things very convenient for the interchange service to ANC & FAI over SEA.

AA acquired the 5 DC10-30's from a variety of sources, and they, too, were among the last retired (AA's own -10's having been some of the first to go).

It's a fact AA has routinely disposed of aircraft it inherited via the M&A activities with QQ, OC, and TW, but if they're seeking these shells out, it's probably not for the short term.
 
I just got done talking with Crystal and she said thing are crazy at work. rumors, rumors ,rumors she said. Crystal told me that she heard from W (she said do not mention their name ) that AA was in discussion with BCC. Crystal asked me who is BCC. I told her that should be Boeing Capital Corportation, and that it is a aircratft financing/ leasing company with in the Boeing company. She said that make sense now. I asked her why that? She said that W was talking about 8 to 13 used aircraft new to AA on a new short term leases between 5 to 7 years that are available now. Crystal said that W talk about some 787 agreement, current 737 800 orders agreement, a possible new 737 800 order for 40 to 50 aircraft, possible move up of some 777 orders that are on the books that were pushed back a few years ago, a option to convert the 777 to 300ER, and a possible LOI ( Letter of intent ) on 747 8 i.

Crystal said that W said that BCC would feel alot better position wise with American Airlines if they can resolve its partership agreement with the American Airlines employee and have a strong footing to work out a agreement with BCC. She said that W mention that BCC could maybe work out a agreement with WFB ( Wells Frago Bank ) on aquiring 8 newer JAL 747 400ER and leasing them to BCC. BCC then sub-leased 747 400ER to AA. Then BCC and AA work on a agreement for financing and friming up the Boeing 787 order, a new order for 737 800, convert the 777 to 300ER at a better agreement than the 777 200ER and financing for the General Electric GE 90-115 engines for the 300ER's and the CFM 56 engines for the 737 800. with a LOI for a possible order of 10 747 8 i


She asked me what is the differents between the 747 400ER and a 747 400D and a 747 8 i. I told her that she knows what a 747 is and she said yes, she and her husband flew BA to London on a 747 a couple years ago. I told her that that was 747 400ER and she said that that is a big plane. I told her that the 747 400ER has a range of about 7600 n miles and a takeoff weight of 875,000 lbs and depending how it is configured seat wise, I said lets say 11 first class, 61 businesss, 335 economy. she said that alot seats. I told her that the 747 400D is a domestic 747 400 for short range high density capacity routings of about 3900 n miles and a takeoff weight of 870,000 lbs and say configure at 401 seats for say a JAL 747 400D which is the only one that I knows has 747 400D. I told her that a 747 400D generally does not have winglet, which are the vertical airfoil on the end of the wings, she said those big tall fences, I siad yes. She said so that's what Walt was talking about when he was talking about the 747 400D. I said the 747 8 i is Boeing newer, bigger, lighter, more fuel efficient version of the 747 400ER and that the first 747 8 i is being built at the Boeing assembly plant. She said that might explain why Walt was talking about in a few years (she said 7 to 10 years). if AA like the 747 400ER. t

I said WHAT? She said that if American Airlines like the 747 400ER, She said that that's what W was talking about. I told her AA does not fly Boeing 747 400ER or any 747, I said the did fly 747 100s back in the 70's and early 80's and some 747 SP in the early to mid 90's for a stop gap until the MD 11's came along to fly from DFW to NRT Japan. I siad American did not perfer the 747 100, American perfered the DC 10 seires aircraft, I told her that I think that American thinking was less plane, less money, more smaller planes, more frequency to a distantion was the way to go back in the 70's and 80's and the MD 11's were simlar to the DC 10 series aircraft that American flew.

I asked her WHO is this W person ? she said they works their At American Airlines. I said who is this and what do they there, she said they are American Airlines empoyee that works at their headquarters complex near DFW and does some type of planning and cooperates with marketing, she said something about a person name B ( she said do not mention their name) in marketing. I told her that it is a bunch of office rumor talk. No She said, they were serious. She said they said thing like this all the time and thing happen at American Airlines, like that 787 agreement with Boeing and American and that last American Airlines 737 800 order this last summer. I said that W must be a good guesser.

I asked her if she and her husband were going to come up to Breck this winter to go sking, she said maybe in Feb or Mar. I told her that they are more than welcome to stay with us, and that the neighbor next door has a spare key if they come to Breckenridge Colorado when the wife and I are out of town.
 
Actually, the company does have a habit of holding onto non-standard aircraft. It just pre-dates your interest in airlines...

AA acquired some 15 727-227's from Braniff in 1980-1982, which lasted well into the 1990's. Since Alaska also had some -227s, it made things very convenient for the interchange service to ANC & FAI over SEA.

AA acquired the 5 DC10-30's from a variety of sources, and they, too, were among the last retired (AA's own -10's having been some of the first to go).

It's a fact AA has routinely disposed of aircraft it inherited via the M&A activities with QQ, OC, and TW, but if they're seeking these shells out, it's probably not for the short term.
Thanks for the reminder but I probably would consider AA's most recent actions as more indicative of what they might do in the future.

Star's post is interesing but it is still predicated on AA obtaining labor cost savings - however that is defined - such that they can effectively compete. There are a host of options available to AA assuming they can come up w/ labor agreements. The issue at that point becomes where AA could potentially fly more and larger aircraft - and that is dependent on the competitive environment. The longer it takes AA to begin to put airplanes in service, the more "solidified" DL and UA are in key markets which AA needs to enter.

But AA mgmt is well aware of the strategic importance of expanding their network and will do it as soon as they can.
 
AA acquired some 15 727-227's from Braniff in 1980-1982, which lasted well into the 1990's. Since Alaska also had some -227s, it made things very convenient for the interchange service to ANC & FAI over SEA.

I don't know about the DC10's, but the BN 727's were almost identical to the AA birds and difficult to pick out unless you looked at the N-numbers. The only cockpit difference was a updated pressurization controller on the FE panel. They were also newer and much cleaner than the AA birds. It was a world of difference walking into what appeared to be an almost new, 1982 vintage, ex-Branniff -200 cockpit after leaving a beat-to-#### original -100 bird built in 1964.

The funny thing was that I think one of those 727's was only 18 months older than a few of our "modern" B-767-200's.

The sad thing is that I've flown 737's that are in worse condition appearance wise than the 25+ year old 727-100's ever were.
 

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