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Additional widebody aircraft

FWA,
in your attempts to argue how poorly compensated DL employees are, you failed to properly interpret the data you even cite.

Negative, WT. I wasn't arguing that DL employes are poorly compensated. I was merely observing that FA pay at AA has exceeded FA pay at most of the legacy peers for most of the past several years.

First, all of the statistics clerarly show that DL is above average in productivity for a network airline... despite all of your and others attempts to argue that DL employees are low-paid, the statistics actually show that they have low costs BECAUSE they are productive.

I don't understand this paragraph. Yes, DL's FAs are more productive than AA's FAs, leading to a huge cost advantage for DL. Doesn't change the fact that AA's FAs have much higher average W-2 wages than DL FAs. My observation was not about DL's costs; it was that AA's FAs have enjoyed higher average pay than most of the legacy peer FAs. And yes, the lack of productivity at AA increases AA's costs dramatically.

Second, you point out DL FA's average salary in the statistics while failing to notice that DL benefit costs are just a fraction lower than AA's - which are the highest in the industry. When you combine DL average benefit costs and FA salaries, you will see that DL FAs are actually the 2nd highest compensated in the network industry - and nearly identical to WN's labor costs.

No, DL's average mainline per-employee benefit costs are substantially less than AA's average mainline per-employee benefit costs. Bob Herbst does not report the average benefit costs per flight attendant (unless I missed it somewhere). Perhaps you have it? Bottom line: For the past several years, DL's FAs have had substantially lower annual wages and DL employees have lower per-employee benefit costs, meaning that DL's FAs have had substantially lower total compensation than AA's FAs.

You will also notice that if you take CO's FA costs and average employee benefit costs that CO FAs are not the 2nd highest paid at all - which is not surprising because as I have noted, CO doesn't pay the reitrement or healthcare benefits of the network carriers because CO is a much younger airline.

Without data for the average CO FA's benefit expenses, there's no way to tell. CO's W-2 wages are comparable to AA's FA's W-2 wages.

You probably also missed the statistic that shows that DL has the highest benefit to salary ratio in the network industry.

Nope, but it's irrelevant to my observation that AA's FAs make more money, on average, than DL FAs.

You will also note that DL has the lowest percentage of management costs of any of the network airlines - and there is absolutely truth to those that argue that AA's management costs are WELL above average.
But again, part of the reason why DL's labor costs are lower is because they are growing.... you attempt to argue that other airlines' employees are low paid because the average compensation is lower than AA's - while failing to note that DL is hiring 1000 FAs this year while AA has many still on furlough.

My observation about FA pay was over the last few years. Excluding the ones you're hiring this year, how many FAs did DL hire off the street from 2003-2010?

Again, average employee costs keep going up when no one is being added to the payroll and the existing employees just keep moving up the payscale.

When you look at all fo the statistics together - average salary AND benefits as well as growth rates, number of hires and furloughs, and productivity - then it becomes alot easier to see the picture for what it is - AA has a senior workforce with low productivity and the company is being driven by solely incremental benefits in cost while other carriers are seeing costs down through hiring new employees and growing new revenue streams.

Yes, AA has a relatively senior, mostly topped-out workforce and has not hired off the street for almost a decade. That will cause average compensation to climb.
 
APFA waiting to hear from
the NMB..........

Actually, the APFA has heard from the NMB. Evidently, the NMB thinks Shrub is still in the White House. They are fully in the pocket of the company. They not only refused the APFA's request to be released from mediation, they informed the APFA that they were not going to schedule any more mediation sessions at this time. So, the company is in control, the APFA's hands are tied as far as I know. I don't think they can get a court injunction to force the NMB to release them.
 
Actually, the APFA has heard from the NMB. Evidently, the NMB thinks Shrub is still in the White House. They are fully in the pocket of the company. They not only refused the APFA's request to be released from mediation, they informed the APFA that they were not going to schedule any more mediation sessions at this time. So, the company is in control, the APFA's hands are tied as far as I know. I don't think they can get a court injunction to force the NMB to release them.

The NMB, along with the Railway Labor act are always MORE favorable to the company than they are the workers.
The NMB will drag negotiations on indefinitely at the bequest of the company.
 
Actually, the APFA has heard from the NMB. Evidently, the NMB thinks Shrub is still in the White House. They are fully in the pocket of the company. They not only refused the APFA's request to be released from mediation, they informed the APFA that they were not going to schedule any more mediation sessions at this time. So, the company is in control, the APFA's hands are tied as far as I know. I don't think they can get a court injunction to force the NMB to release them.

Gee, just blame Bush while you're at it (oh, wait, you did...). Yes, two of the three board members were appointed by W, but one is a former pilot and ALPA official. The third is a former AFA official.

http://www.nmb.gov/directory/hoglander-harry-r_bio.html

http://www.nmb.gov/directory/dougherty-elizabeth_bio.html

http://www.nmb.gov/directory/puchala-linda_bio.html

By most accounts (including labor), the board is now skewed more towards labor.

Could it be that perhaps (and that is just perhaps) that even they see the APFA's stance as being the more unreasonable of the two parties here?....
 
Could it be that perhaps (and that is just perhaps) that even they see the APFA's stance as being the more unreasonable of the two parties here?....
Then release them or schedule more sessions. That is how it is suppose to work. The NMB should be neutral and they are not.
Look at Fleet, the NMB has them in a corner with nothing planned. Not how it is suppose to work.
 
Getting back to the OP's topic:

I assume that we won't be hearing about any new widebody airplane orders/acquisitions today or anytime soon.

But I'd love to be wrong. Who doesn't get excited about rumours of dozens of new (or new to AA) widebody airplanes? Maybe a few dozen 748s? Perhaps several dozen 777-300ERs? B)
 
Gee, just blame Bush while you're at it (oh, wait, you did...). Yes, two of the three board members were appointed by W, but one is a former pilot and ALPA official. The third is a former AFA official.

http://www.nmb.gov/directory/hoglander-harry-r_bio.html

http://www.nmb.gov/directory/dougherty-elizabeth_bio.html

http://www.nmb.gov/directory/puchala-linda_bio.html

By most accounts (including labor), the board is now skewed more towards labor.

Could it be that perhaps (and that is just perhaps) that even they see the APFA's stance as being the more unreasonable of the two parties here?....

Well, don't let the fact that they refuse to schedule more sessions or release the union stand in the way of believing whatever you want to believe. Obviously, they have the union's hands tied and refuse to do nothing to move the process along. Definitely a union bias. A pilot and an ALPA official. Well, we all know how much pilots support anything being given to flight attendants before pilots get their "fair" share. I had a pilot just recently say to me that there was no way that the f/a contract would be settled until the pilots had been given what they deserve for their years of sacrifice. (As if no one but them sacrificed anything.)
 
Is it really necessary to bring up the fact that furloughs are included in the count every single time that attrition is mentioned? We all know it.
You may know it. I may know it. Others may know it. However, that does not mean that everyone reading these message boards knows it. Most people understand attrition to be a permanent separation from the company, which is not necessarily true for furloughs.

Beside that, why shouldn't furloughs be counted in the attrition?
When furloughs are counted in the attrition figures, the percentage of those who retire is distorted.
 
jimntx said:
Well, don't let the fact that they refuse to schedule more sessions or release the union stand in the way of believing whatever you want to believe. Obviously, they have the union's hands tied and refuse to do nothing to move the process along.

As I said on a TWU thread not too long ago, the mediator isn't going to waste their time scheduling sessions if one or the other party isn't budging towards middle ground.

Definitely a union bias. A pilot and an ALPA official. Well, we all know how much pilots support anything being given to flight attendants before pilots get their "fair" share. I had a pilot just recently say to me that there was no way that the f/a contract would be settled until the pilots had been given what they deserve for their years of sacrifice. (As if no one but them sacrificed anything.)

By that logic, then the mechanics should be on ice, too, yet it looks like they've been having regular sessions for the past two months.

Yes, I know I'm a corporate apologist and union buster. But I am noticing a little trend here....

Whenever there's some decision made which doesn't favor labor, there's almost an immediate reaction or claim that it's politically motivated, or someone is on the take.

God forbid those decisions actually being based on reason, law, or facts. It's always fixed...
 
By that logic, then the mechanics should be on ice, too, yet it looks like they've been having regular sessions for the past two months.

Yes, I know I'm a corporate apologist and union buster. But I am noticing a little trend here....

Whenever there's some decision made which doesn't favor labor, there's almost an immediate reaction or claim that it's politically motivated, or someone is on the take.

God forbid those decisions actually being based on reason, law, or facts. It's always fixed...

The reason the mechanics are not on ice is because we are the ONLY work group to have voted on the TA.
No other TWU title group has voted on their TA and the pilots and FAs haven't had a TA.

And the Railway Labor Act was created to protect commerce and hence protect companies. It automatically favors corporations over workers.
 
Getting back to the OP's topic:

I assume that we won't be hearing about any new widebody airplane orders/acquisitions today or anytime soon.

But I'd love to be wrong. Who doesn't get excited about rumours of dozens of new (or new to AA) widebody airplanes? Maybe a few dozen 748s? Perhaps several dozen 777-300ERs? B)


I have been waiting the whole day for the big announcement. Readhead said today was the day...........Let hope its true.
 
I have been waiting the whole day for the big announcement. Readhead said today was the day...........Let hope its true.


I stated that I would post today - so here goes. Again, I say that the 25 to 30 B777s is not a rumor, but fact. Time frame: We will see one or two delivered before the end of 2011. Beginning next year (2012), over a four year period, we will take delivery, of the rest that are needed. Whether the two that we are receiving near the end of 2012, belong in this equation or not, do not know. Some airplanes are being replaced, and is a very shrewd move, as it would cost more to repair them, than buy a newer airplane.

Five new routes to Asia, out of LAX. It appears now, that at least ten destinations are being considered. That could mean, that destinations other than Asia are being discussed.

There are going to be new ads, different from what we now have. The ads will concentrate on a subject, that we have never seen before, and will be successful.

I did say that this would be good news, and so it is.......... I stand behind everything that I have stated here, and waiting now, for more good news to come our way!

American Airlines is on the move..........and will continue to do so in every facet of its operation.
 
I stated that I would post today - so here goes. Again, I say that the 25 to 30 B777s is not a rumor, but fact. Time frame: We will see one or two delivered before the end of 2011. Beginning next year (2012), over a four year period, we will take delivery, of the rest that are needed. Whether the two that we are receiving near the end of 2012, belong in this equation or not, do not know. Some airplanes are being replaced, and is a very shrewd move, as it would cost more to repair them, than buy a newer airplane.

Five new routes to Asia, out of LAX. It appears now, that at least ten destinations are being considered. That could mean, that destinations other than Asia are being discussed.

There are going to be new ads, different from what we now have. The ads will concentrate on a subject, that we have never seen before, and will be successful.

I did say that this would be good news, and so it is.......... I stand behind everything that I have stated here, and waiting now, for more good news to come our way!

American Airlines is on the move..........and will continue to do so in every facet of its operation.

Your report is not follow by any official AA announcement. So I guess we will have to wait and see.
Hope you are right.
 
Your report is not follow by any official AA announcement. So I guess we will have to wait and see.
Hope you are right.
I did just get off a trip and the pilots said the "schoolhouse " was all pumped up for something. Hope there is some truth to all this.
 
The company has ask the pilots for "side letter of agreement for ling haul flying" there are a few long haul destinations the company wants to fly too but the apa contract won't allow it. It will be interesting to see what the union responses to this is. This is a win win to both sides I hope apa agrees to if.
 

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