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The company has ask the pilots for "side letter of agreement for ling haul flying" there are a few long haul destinations the company wants to fly too but the apa contract won't allow it. It will be interesting to see what the union responses to this is. This is a win win to both sides I hope apa agrees to if.

I am unfamiliar with the pilots' contract. If this is in fact true, I would like to hear a pilot's perspective on the details of such an agreement. If its just a rumor, could some light be shed on any "long haul" restricitions?
 
I am unfamiliar with the pilots' contract. If this is in fact true, I would like to hear a pilot's perspective on the details of such an agreement. If its just a rumor, could some light be shed on any "long haul" restricitions?

Not a pilot but I believe that the APA contract limits the duty day to 14 hours unless waived (as with DEL and ORD-PVG).

Here's a DMN blog piece about this subject from yesterday:

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2011/01/american-airlines-wants-to-fly.html

My guess on new destinations include BOM, NYC-China, LAX-PEK, NYC-India along with the usual suspects like ICN, SYD (much less likely), JNB or CPT (also much less likely) and DXB (probably never on AA metal).

A while back, I posted that AA should grab China frequencies for LAX-PVG and LAX-PEK plus JFK-PVG and JFK-PEK. Last year, AA did apply for LAX-PVG (along with UA who didn't want AA to be alone on that one). CO (UA) already flies EWR-PVG and EWR-PEK, but JFK might be able to support AA flights as well.

DFW to China? Its lackluster O&D made it a loser when AA applied for it and then modified to DFW-ORD-PEK; Dunno if it makes sense to connect passengers to DFW instead of ORD/LAX/JFK.
 
Not a pilot but I believe that the APA contract limits the duty day to 14 hours unless waived (as with DEL and ORD-PVG).

Here's a DMN blog piece about this subject from yesterday:

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2011/01/american-airlines-wants-to-fly.html

My guess on new destinations include BOM, NYC-China, LAX-PEK, NYC-India along with the usual suspects like ICN, SYD (much less likely), JNB or CPT (also much less likely) and DXB (probably never on AA metal).

A while back, I posted that AA should grab China frequencies for LAX-PVG and LAX-PEK plus JFK-PVG and JFK-PEK. Last year, AA did apply for LAX-PVG (along with UA who didn't want AA to be alone on that one). CO (UA) already flies EWR-PVG and EWR-PEK, but JFK might be able to support AA flights as well.

DFW to China? Its lackluster O&D made it a loser when AA applied for it and then modified to DFW-ORD-PEK; Dunno if it makes sense to connect passengers to DFW instead of ORD/LAX/JFK.

I can't speak for pilots, but increasing duty time allowing AA to obtain and compete on longer haul routes might be beneficial to pilots in the long run.
I guess when it comes to labor agreements, there is more to it than just AA still doing their own "in-house" overhauls.
It seems the world does not simply revolve around AA having more mechanics on payroll than other carriers.
 
Wasn't there something about double cockpit crews on long-haul flights when they first started talking about Chicago-Bombay? I've slept a couple of times since then; so, I may be remembering a dispute at another airline. (Sad when they get old, isn't
it? 🙁 )
 
Wasn't there something about double cockpit crews on long-haul flights when they first started talking about Chicago-Bombay? I've slept a couple of times since then; so, I may be remembering a dispute at another airline. (Sad when they get old, isn't
it? 🙁 )

I think that Mach85 recently posted (I hope he shows up here as I enjoy his imformative posts) that the APA wanted two captains and two first officers but that AA wanted one captain and three first officers for the obvious cost savings (whatta surprise). Per FAA rules, all flights over 12 hours require four pilots but the FAA doesn't specify how many of them have to be captains. I think most current AA longhauls with four pilots have just one captain. That would seem to retard the rate of left-seat upgrades among 777 (and eventually, 787) crews.
 
I am unfamiliar with the pilots' contract. If this is in fact true, I would like to hear a pilot's perspective on the details of such an agreement. If its just a rumor, could some light be shed on any "long haul" restricitions?
[/quote

Go to jetnet. On the negotiations link regarding APA it talks about the company asking the pilots for a side letter of agreement so the company cam pursue some long haul flying. The max AA pilots can be on duty is 16 hours. Am sure the company wants to increase the duty time. The dispute is how to crew the flight. AA wants one captain 3 FO. APA wants 2 captains 2 FO.
 
There will not be a long haul side letter signed by APA, period.

The payrates for the B777-300ER's do not exist. There will be no side letter to agree to fly them. If delivered without completing the current Section 6 negotiations, they will sit on the ramp as paperweights. UAL pilots did that with their first 747-400's, I believe the Delta pilots did the same with their MD11's. Although APA has B777-300 rates listed in the current contract, they were for the basic domestic version. The model ordered wasn't even off the drawing board. Rumor is that senior AMR management acknowledged there was no a payrate after an immediate call to them from senior APA leadership regarding the issue after the news broke.

There is a safety concern regarding 1 Captain on duty and responsible for a 120 Million dollar asset as well as possibly Billions in liability at the end of a 18 hour duty day, or even longer with unforeseen delays. As far as I know, one legacy competitor uses 2 Captains, another uses only 1 Captain for long haul.

Settle the current contract. Shifting any blame to APA for refusal to sign a side letter should be taken as ridiculous and a damming commentary on AMR senior leadership. They had no problem collecting on the devastating 2003 contract that was negotiated in weeks. Now it's the pilots who are the problems even though it's taken 3 years of negotiations to settle parking decal issues in section 6.
 
There will not be a long haul side letter signed by APA, period.

The payrates for the B777-300ER's do not exist. There will be no side letter to agree to fly them. If delivered without completing the current Section 6 negotiations, they will sit on the ramp as paperweights. UAL pilots did that with their first 747-400's, I believe the Delta pilots did the same with their MD11's. Although APA has B777-300 rates listed in the current contract, they were for the basic domestic version. The model ordered wasn't even off the drawing board. Rumor is that senior AMR management acknowledged there was no a payrate after an immediate call to them from senior APA leadership regarding the issue after the news broke.

There is a safety concern regarding 1 Captain on duty and responsible for a 120 Million dollar asset as well as possibly Billions in liability at the end of a 18 hour duty day, or even longer with unforeseen delays. As far as I know, one legacy competitor uses 2 Captains, another uses only 1 Captain for long haul.

Settle the current contract. Shifting any blame to APA for refusal to sign a side letter should be taken as ridiculous and a damming commentary on AMR senior leadership. They had no problem collecting on the devastating 2003 contract that was negotiated in weeks. Now it's the pilots who are the problems even though it's taken 3 years of negotiations to settle parking decal issues in section 6.


Cut off your nose to spite your face.
 
There will not be a long haul side letter signed by APA, period.

The payrates for the B777-300ER's do not exist. There will be no side letter to agree to fly them. If delivered without completing the current Section 6 negotiations, they will sit on the ramp as paperweights. UAL pilots did that with their first 747-400's, I believe the Delta pilots did the same with their MD11's. Although APA has B777-300 rates listed in the current contract, they were for the basic domestic version. The model ordered wasn't even off the drawing board. Rumor is that senior AMR management acknowledged there was no a payrate after an immediate call to them from senior APA leadership regarding the issue after the news broke.

I'd say that qualifies as a major management screw-up. Wonder which genius read the "B-777-300" provisions in Section 3 of the Agreement and didn't notice the listed gross weight as "662k"? When asked during the conference call about the 777-300ER payrates and whether the company and APA had an agreement to fly them, Arpey answered "yes." Oops.

There's plenty of time to reach an agreement as they're not due to be delivered for 18-20 months or more (near end of 2012).
 
Worldtraveler.

I agree with many of your view points.
Totally agree that AA needs to get serious
about competing with DL and UA if AA is going
to make it.
My only question to you is how to address senior
managements actions when it comes to their executive
compensations. AA lost close to $400 million last year
and a select few are getting $35 million as a reward
for such a dismall performance. I know $35 million is
a drop in a sea of water. But what this actions does to the moral
of tens of thousands of employees that have
sacrifice a lot for this company is beyond words.
Just because the board of directors approve these rewards
does not mean that they have to take it.
Not if they where serious about improving labor ralations at AA.

I agree that AA employees have fair better than other employees
that have gone thru the bankruptcy process.
I'm glad you asked what I think needs to be done... despite what some people might think, I genuinely am interested in seeing AA turn around - and I do have my thoughts on how that should take place. Unfortunately, I am in the middle of a grueling travel schedule - but I am hoping that I can take a break next week and post some of my thoughts.....

I will add that the continued notion that AA employees have fared better than other airline employees is becoming more legend than reality.... other airline employees are now earning profit sharing and the only reason AA employees show such high average salaries is because AA is not growing... yet, other airlines are paying their employees as well if not better and have indeed "made up for" the cuts that were imposed in BK - not the least of which was the stock issuances that were made post-BK; many posters here look at the cuts within BK without factoring in the "paybacks" that were indeed made after the fact.... of course they also don't want to look at the "paybacks" that AA gave (stock issuance) because in reality AA's paybacks were far less valuable.

That's not a dig of AA - but again just part of the reality that AA's turnaround plAAn wasn't as good as what other carriers accomplished - inside BK.


--

Redhead,
if the notion that AA will acquire dozens of new aircraft is rooted in the notion that AA will add a half dozen new transpac routes from LAX, I can assure you that the rumors are completely false. LAX is one of the most competitive gateways acrtoss the Pacific; while it is true that US carriers have an unusually small share of the transpac market, the Asian carriers have much lower costs and deeply entrenched positions - with the majority of the market is local LAX passengers - where US carriers have alot less control than they do from other gateways where they can funnel alot more passengers onto their flights.
AA is in the most unlikely position to attack those realities - the industry's highest costs, the smallest position in Asia (it would be alot easier to develop LAX by a carrier that already has a strong position in Asia from other gateways), and with the smallest transpac alliance - which can go a long way to helping overcome some of those obstacles.

Your predicitons take a hit as every day passes withouth a press release from AA substantiating your predicitons - as you well know.

While I expect AA will turn things around, I don't think multiple new LAX-Asia flights will do it.

---
If AA bought 773ERs without pilot pay scales for the aircraft, then you can bet the pilots will use that error to APA's advantage.
 
There is a safety concern regarding 1 Captain on duty and responsible for a 120 Million dollar asset as well as possibly Billions in liability at the end of a 18 hour duty day, or even longer with unforeseen delays. As far as I know, one legacy competitor uses 2 Captains, another uses only 1 Captain for long haul.
Are you serious? (about the safety issues)
Has the airline which uses 1 captain had any safety issues? Or any other problems? What are the safety issues that require 2 captains to deal with on long haul flights?
Are you saying that FOs are that incompetent and require 1:1 supervision by captains? 🙄
 
Are you serious? (about the safety issues)

Yes I'm serious. I've been in the cockpit of extended duty day flights due to departure delays and weather diversions in foreign countries with limited support where 3 pilots had been awake for 30+ hours.

Plenty of foreign carriers drive their pilots into the ground without labor/regulatory rest provisions. Feel free to fly on them.

Yes, fatigue is a safety issue.
 
If it were three pilot crew being discussed, I would fully agree with Mach on the fatigue issue.

But it's not. A four pilot crew has always been required for the type of flying in the current ORD-DEL side letter.

Increased safety? Do Captains suddenly wake up one day, go to Captain School, and learn all the deep dark secrets about command and authority? Or does it focus on how to taxi the aircraft, and be culturally sensitive to their underlings feelings when applying CRM?...

By the 2CA2FO standard, the only "safe" airline in the world I know of is Delta (queue WT celebratory and amazed post for be saying anything positive about DL), and that appears to be a holdover from the NW contract (de-queue celebratory post...). UA has 1CA3FO as does FDX, CO and most international airlines. I don't think there are any other US airlines flying +16 hours.

Mach, what's the average seniority of a 777 FO? Most of the guys look like they're probably old enough to be upgraded to CA on a smaller type, which in my book isn't quite like letting Chief Stewardess Nancy Pryor play pilot while the captain sleeps or has a stroke. Don't the FARs already require that the SIC be held to the same type ratings/currency requirements as the PIC?

If so, then it's hard to say this isn't mostly all about pay. The only significant change I can see is not requiring the CA to be in the left seat for both takeoff & landing.
 
If it were three pilot crew being discussed, I would fully agree with Mach on the fatigue issue.

But it's not. A four pilot crew has always been required for the type of flying in the current ORD-DEL side letter.

Increased safety? Do Captains suddenly wake up one day, go to Captain School, and learn all the deep dark secrets about command and authority? Or does it focus on how to taxi the aircraft, and be culturally sensitive to their underlings feelings when applying CRM?...

By the 2CA2FO standard, the only "safe" airline in the world I know of is Delta (queue WT celebratory and amazed post for be saying anything positive about DL), and that appears to be a holdover from the NW contract (de-queue celebratory post...). UA has 1CA3FO as does FDX, CO and most international airlines. I don't think there are any other US airlines flying +16 hours.

Mach, what's the average seniority of a 777 FO? Most of the guys look like they're probably old enough to be upgraded to CA on a smaller type, which in my book isn't quite like letting Chief Stewardess Nancy Pryor play pilot while the captain sleeps or has a stroke. Don't the FARs already require that the SIC be held to the same type ratings/currency requirements as the PIC?

If so, then it's hard to say this isn't mostly all about pay. The only significant change I can see is not requiring the CA to be in the left seat for both takeoff & landing.
E,
DL agreed with ALPA to its own pilot staffing rules that provided for 2 captains LONG BEFORE DL and NW merged.
I have to completely agree with those among APA who argue that if AA isn't willing to provide a 2CA2FO staffing, then they are wasting time and effort talking about expanding AA or revising the pilot contract. Furher, if the route opportunities are that shaky that the difference of one pilotupgrade to CA will throw the whole flight unprofitable, then the growth probably isn't worth pursuing.
I don't think NW flew any segments over 16 hrs prior to the merger while DL had several. Further, I think DL is currently the only US airline (network at least) that flies any segments blocked at 16 hrs or greater... and I would also guess that the significance of the 2CA push becomes all the more important as new technology aircraft expand the routes where those planes COULD be flown.
The 787 and 350 orders might not get far if AA and UA are both determined not to staff by the formula which DL is apparently able to use to make money.
You can also bet that ALPA at UA and the APA at AA are willing to argue that they are not going to expand flying at all if they have to sell out the future in order to get it.
Of course there would be those who would bring up outsourced maintenance vs. in-house overhauls at AA as an example - and I would respond by saying that DL has industry average costs - which I believe does include the pilots - by agreeing to provisions that do mean something. I'm not sure what DL pilots do that allows their costs to stay down while also demanding richer provisions like 2CAs but it has allowed DL to expand long haul flying substantially - and I still there are opportunities to fly those 777LRs even further than they are now.
 
I have to completely agree with those among APA who argue that if AA isn't willing to provide a 2CA2FO staffing, then they are wasting time and effort talking about expanding AA or revising the pilot contract. Furher, if the route opportunities are that shaky that the difference of one pilotupgrade to CA will throw the whole flight unprofitable, then the growth probably isn't worth pursuing.

Negotiations are a two way street. I'm sure there's an offset that could resolve the issue. But APA wants a contract, not a side letter.

And it's not just one pilot upgrade. It's at least a hundred, because ORD-DEL would have to be accommodated. Each ultra long haul drives probably 20-30 incremental upgrades, assuming two shells airborne each day and flying it perhaps twice or three times a month.

There may also be some incremental FO seats required, since those guys aren't at the end of their careers yet. There's constant churn in the FO pool since they do upgrade at some stage to CA, and some still have reserve commitments as they try to finish out their military years of service for a pension. Maybe not as big of a deal as they're also probably more likely to fly higher time than more senior guys whose kids are already thru college...

Before you make DL the example to follow, don't forget that ALPA also gave management flexibility in return for pay: unlimited outsourcing of regional feed, and preferential bidding are just two examples. Great concepts, but ones that APA is unlikely to ever try to sell to the membership.

Last March, CO management offered to give their pilots DL's contract plus $1 on top of their book rates. The CO's pilots declined, even though it would have meant significant raises and improved things like crew rest (pilots apparently get the back row of coach on the 757?).
 

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