...AA has done very little other than lower cost. That alone is NOT why Southwest, Airtran, & JetBlue are sucessful. They have a powerful brand that speaks to customers. AA does have a product...however, it no longer supports 800 aircraft.
Afa-apfa Our Futures At Stake
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Do you hate your coworkers or do you just hate unions?
I just hate unions and the sense that the company owes you something, that the company exists so that you can make a nice living doing minimal work with great benefits. You rant all you want, but the plain facts speak for themselves, the industries that have the heaviest union involvement are the ones that perform the poorest (steel, textiles, automotive, airlines, etc....) It isn't just incompetent management; the pattern repeats itself every time. Unions are bad for the economy and they are bad for the members. I just don't understand the argument that its better to fight and lose your jobs, than accept lower wages. I bet all those ex-union workers in Cleveland that has 20% unemployment would take those lower paying jobs now. Take your lower wages and if don't like it GO FIND ANOTHER JOB! That is what the rest of the working world does.
I'm amazed at how many of you believe that unions are such a terrible idea.
The idea of a union is noble and works well but when unions and there membership act like locust systematically destroying American industry one by one its hard to support them. They're corrupt, they give their members false expectations, and they are inherently anti-competitive and anti-company.
Look if in five years AA is making money hand over fist and the F/A want a raise, I’m all for it. Everyone should benefit when the company does well, but when the company is doing poorly you're going to suffer, especially when you're the company's biggest expense.
AA has done very little other than lower cost. That alone is NOT why Southwest, Airtran, & JetBlue are sucessful. They have a powerful brand that speaks to customers. AA does have a product...however, it no longer supports 800 aircraft.
You didn't just suggest that Airtran has a more powerful brand than AA did you?
Oneflyer said:I just hate unions and the sense that the company owes you something, that the company exists so that you can make a nice living doing minimal work with great benefits. You rant all you want, but the plain facts speak for themselves, the industries that have the heaviest union involvement are the ones that perform the poorest (steel, textiles, automotive, airlines, etc....) It isn't just incompetent management; the pattern repeats itself every time. Unions are bad for the economy and they are bad for the members. I just don't understand the argument that its better to fight and lose your jobs, than accept lower wages. I bet all those ex-union workers in Cleveland that has 20% unemployment would take those lower paying jobs now. Take your lower wages and if don't like it GO FIND ANOTHER JOB! That is what the rest of the working world does.
The idea of a union is noble and works well but when unions and there membership act like locust systematically destroying American industry one by one its hard to support them. They're corrupt, they give their members false expectations, and they are inherently anti-competitive and anti-company.
Look if in five years AA is making money hand over fist and the F/A want a raise, I’m all for it. Everyone should benefit when the company does well, but when the company is doing poorly you're going to suffer, especially when you're the company's biggest expense.
[post="202127"][/post]
I believe you did not understand my post.
I do not perceive the situation we are in as just a union vs company issue.
I rather see it as an attempt of many if not all corporations to reduce the wages and benefits of american workers -any workers unionized or not-.
I do not see it as a result of market forces interplay, as companies are using the courts to set market rates and not let the marketplace work.
The rest of the companies are waiting for presedent to be set, and then claim that they must be competitive.Whos to blame them?
Collusion ? Conspirasy?Probably not (at least not at a large scale).
Just people seeing the oportunity to let others do their dirty work.
The one mainly responsible for this situation is, in my oppinion, our government who on one hand claims all this free market crap, but on the other hand is leading the way in decimating the middle class under the discuise of global economy and job generating lies.
I would like to add, that we do not live in a take it or live it world.This is not a totalitarian country.At least not at the surfase.
What is so difficult to understand?
Some of us would prefer to stay and fight now, than go somewhere else
-as you graceously suggested -and face the same situation later in life.
Others just take what their master gives them.
This is not something that is happening to only one sector of the industy or just union companies.It involves all sectors of the economy.
It involves all of us union members or not.
OP
goingboeing
Veteran
- Jan 30, 2004
- 584
- 1
Oneflyer said:I just hate unions and the sense that the company owes you something, that the company exists so that you can make a nice living doing minimal work with great benefits. You rant all you want, but the plain facts speak for themselves, the industries that have the heaviest union involvement are the ones that perform the poorest (steel, textiles, automotive, airlines, etc....) It isn't just incompetent management; the pattern repeats itself every time. Unions are bad for the economy and they are bad for the members. I just don't understand the argument that its better to fight and lose your jobs, than accept lower wages. I bet all those ex-union workers in Cleveland that has 20% unemployment would take those lower paying jobs now. Take your lower wages and if don't like it GO FIND ANOTHER JOB! That is what the rest of the working world does.
The idea of a union is noble and works well but when unions and there membership act like locust systematically destroying American industry one by one its hard to support them. They're corrupt, they give their members false expectations, and they are inherently anti-competitive and anti-company.
Look if in five years AA is making money hand over fist and the F/A want a raise, I’m all for it. Everyone should benefit when the company does well, but when the company is doing poorly you're going to suffer, especially when you're the company's biggest expense.
[post="202127"][/post]
You slam unions and blame them for all the problems and overlook the incompetence of management.
SWA[LUV] is the most heavily unionized airline operating today and one of FEW that are profitable.Unions are not the problem and Herb understands this as he spent a lifetime building trust between himself and the workforce.
The culture of AA management is that unions are the blame for all the problems at AA. AA management at TUL had their big "Take back the Company"meeting at Grand Lake a few years back and now look at the state of the company.
SWA is an example of what can happen when management and labor show each other respect.It ALL started with the attitude that Herb has towards his employees.He showed them from the beginning that they were an asset instead of a liability.
As a 19year veteran I can't even number them times that AA management has openly in the press blamed its unionized workforce for its problems.
[Remember Robert Crandall and the famous quote that his pilots still believed the earth was flat] This was reported in major news media outlets all over the country.
I do not think that unions are without flaw and leadership and members need to reject the old ideas that still remain.
The modern airline business is so ruthless that is is going to take joint co-operation between the management and unions for long term survival.
AirTran does have a more powerful brand than AA in saying to consumers they are pro-consumer, lower price...AA has one of saying they cater to business travelers. In times like these when pro-consumer prevail, it is fair to say AirTran is portraying itself in a way customers want to hear better than AA....
If you disagree I think you'd have to provide your understanding of brand.
If you disagree I think you'd have to provide your understanding of brand.
Bob Owens said:Spoken like a true TWU supporter!
"We cant strike, we are weak". Then two seconds later saying "United invincible".
The AFA is giving the AFL-CIO unions the opportunity to prove themselves. Sonny Hall claimed that we dont need to merge all the airline unions into one because through the AFL-CIO and the TTD we already have that.
Well if the AFA, an AFL-CIO union goes out will we support them or not? So where do you stand AAmech, are you a worker or a TWU officer? Are you willing to lay it on the line in support of our brothers and sisters at the AFA? Are you saying that if we all stuck together that we would all be replaced by scabs?
I doubt it. Deep down you are a scab, and the posts you put out here shows it.
[post="201823"][/post]
Well deep down inside you truly are BRAINLESS!!!! What do you think we could accomplish with a strike? What are we going to gain? How does this improve our situation? Will a strike magically put money in Bankrupt companies bank accounts? Maybe you haven't noticed that the "Legacies" airlines with good pay and retirement plans are dying! There is no big bad Robber Baron ripping off the employees to line his own pocket. If there was a strike would be an easy call This is simply the idea of frustrated union officials who don't know how to deal with the misarable reality of the world today. If a strike succeded in putting a US or UA out of business what airlines will fill the void? Its not like when EA folded and there was a strong AA waiting to expand with a bunch of good jobs. When a US fails the void will be filled by the Airtrans and Jetblues with low pay, no retirement plan or retiree health. How will this help us? The only thing a strike does is accelerate the downward slide of the airline employee. There is zero benifit for the workers!
goingboeing
Veteran
- Jan 30, 2004
- 584
- 1
AAmech said:Well deep down inside you truly are BRAINLESS!!!! What do you think we could accomplish with a strike? What are we going to gain? How does this improve our situation? Will a strike magically put money in Bankrupt companies bank accounts? Maybe you haven't noticed that the "Legacies" airlines with good pay and retirement plans are dying! There is no big bad Robber Baron ripping off the employees to line his own pocket. If there was a strike would be an easy call This is simply the idea of frustrated union officials who don't know how to deal with the misarable reality of the world today. If a strike succeded in putting a US or UA out of business what airlines will fill the void? Its not like when EA folded and there was a strong AA waiting to expand with a bunch of good jobs. When a US fails the void will be filled by the Airtrans and Jetblues with low pay, no retirement plan or retiree health. How will this help us? The only thing a strike does is accelerate the downward slide of the airline employee. There is zero benifit for the workers!
[post="202904"][/post]
The quicker that we can get to the bottom the sooner we can start the climb back up. STRIKE-STRIKE-STRIKE!
Even Martha Stewart understands this principle as she asked the judge to start her sentence before the appeal was heard.
mjk
Advanced
goingboeing said:The quicker that we can get to the bottom the sooner we can start the climb back up. STRIKE-STRIKE-STRIKE!
Even Martha Stewart understands this principle as she asked the judge to start her sentence before the appeal was heard.
[post="202951"][/post]
Martha Stewart will have a company to come back to after serving her jailtime. USAirways employees may not.
AAmech,Nov 21 2004, 11:19 PM]
Well deep down inside you truly are BRAINLESS!!!! What do you think we could accomplish with a strike? What are we going to gain?
So are you saying that the head of the AFA is brainless?And what makes you more qualified to be a labor leader than her?
How does this improve our situation? Will a strike magically put money in Bankrupt companies bank accounts? Maybe you haven't noticed that the "Legacies" airlines with good pay and retirement plans are dying!
Seems to me that from what I can see the legacies are lowering their pay, eliminating their benifits and backing out of their retirement plans. Last year we had two crew chiefs quit AA and go to Jet Blue. They made more money this year with them than they ever did with AA. While I would rather not go with Jet Blue, since I feel that in the long run they will go the way of Laker, Capitol and People Express, if SWA was hiring at ISP I'd be knocking on their door. SWA pays better with better benifits, maybe workers would be better off preserving the rate and allow those who are unable to pay good wages to die.
There is no big bad Robber Baron ripping off the employees to line his own pocket. If there was a strike would be an easy call This is simply the idea of frustrated union officials who don't know how to deal with the misarable reality of the world today.
Maybe that union official is not sitting back comfortably collecting $120,000 a year while feigning concern for her members. Maybe she is part of a democratic union who will be held accountable like the former presidents of the APFA and APA were. So tell us about the "misarable" realities that TWU officials face as they give themselves raises while telling workers not to resist any concession, with the possible exception of check-off. Now that would be a strike issue wouldnt it? An election is one reality they dont have to face now do they?
If a strike succeded in putting a US or UA out of business what airlines will fill the void?
Isnt that the point? I guess you have not studied Labor history over there at the Meany have you? If the service is essential then the government will be forced to step in. Perhaps as a settlement we could see some sort of regulation restored.
Its not like when EA folded and there was a strong AA waiting to expand with a bunch of good jobs. When a US fails the void will be filled by the Airtrans and Jetblues with low pay, no retirement plan or retiree health.
Dont you mean with no dues payers? Seems that there is not much difference any more between those companies and the legacy carriers. With the concessions that USAIR is demanding will those workers be worse off working for Jet Blue or even Airtran? They would be better off with SWA. If you were to compare workforces at the same point in years of sevice JetBlue and SWA workers are much better off than a TWU represented worker. Last week Bobby Gless, (you know him dont you?) told a couple of mechanics that he happened to run into that the TWU is heading us towards being like the Airtrans of the industry anyway.
Why do you not mention SWA?
You often speak as if you are some kind of businessman, well I'm sure you have read of JetBlues recent setbacks, increased costs, declining yields etc. Well there wonderboy have you compared JetBlues trajectory with many of the other upstarts in the past? Itsnt Jet Blue following a similar trajectory? Same with AirTran?
SWA is a different story, they dont usually go head to head in highly competitive markets, they make their own. But then again wouldnt any one of us, those of us who work for an airline, not the union, love to work at SWA?
How will this help us?
Us? Do you still collect a paycheck from an airline?
The only thing a strike does is accelerate the downward slide of the airline employee.
Oh really, so you suggest that we just keep giving concessions no matter what?
There is zero benifit for the workers!
There is no other way to stop the carnage. The AFA is right, we need to shut it down. If we were in Europe we would have done this last year.
Where are the benifits of AFL-CIO solidarity that your TWU always speak of? "United invincible" right? Or is that just rhetoric?
Here is one of your fellow AFL-CIO unions calling for action and what is your response-brainless?
Brainless is letting a union that takes philandering, irresposible, workers that should have been fired and appointing them to represent you. Brainless is supporting a union that claims that massive concessions for us is a "reality" while they use our dues to give themselves a different "reality'.
The Airtrans and the Jet Blues are not going to be able to handle all the flying that this country needs.Its time for workers to fight back. We know that unions like the TWU will never do it, hopefully there are other unions out there that will step up to the plate.
The fact is there is zero benifit for unions like the TWU who stand to risk the financial aid provided by companies where they represent workers if they particuipate in such an action.
The TWU has more to gain by just sitting back waiting for other carriers to fail so that those places where they have a lot of members can expand, then they can get more dues payers without actually letting them vote to allow the TWU to represent them. They know that with their reputation not too many airline workers would actually choose the TWU. Many would rather have no union at all than the twu. Can you blame them? The TWU has done more to hurt workers than any other organization.
Well deep down inside you truly are BRAINLESS!!!! What do you think we could accomplish with a strike? What are we going to gain?
So are you saying that the head of the AFA is brainless?And what makes you more qualified to be a labor leader than her?
How does this improve our situation? Will a strike magically put money in Bankrupt companies bank accounts? Maybe you haven't noticed that the "Legacies" airlines with good pay and retirement plans are dying!
Seems to me that from what I can see the legacies are lowering their pay, eliminating their benifits and backing out of their retirement plans. Last year we had two crew chiefs quit AA and go to Jet Blue. They made more money this year with them than they ever did with AA. While I would rather not go with Jet Blue, since I feel that in the long run they will go the way of Laker, Capitol and People Express, if SWA was hiring at ISP I'd be knocking on their door. SWA pays better with better benifits, maybe workers would be better off preserving the rate and allow those who are unable to pay good wages to die.
There is no big bad Robber Baron ripping off the employees to line his own pocket. If there was a strike would be an easy call This is simply the idea of frustrated union officials who don't know how to deal with the misarable reality of the world today.
Maybe that union official is not sitting back comfortably collecting $120,000 a year while feigning concern for her members. Maybe she is part of a democratic union who will be held accountable like the former presidents of the APFA and APA were. So tell us about the "misarable" realities that TWU officials face as they give themselves raises while telling workers not to resist any concession, with the possible exception of check-off. Now that would be a strike issue wouldnt it? An election is one reality they dont have to face now do they?
If a strike succeded in putting a US or UA out of business what airlines will fill the void?
Isnt that the point? I guess you have not studied Labor history over there at the Meany have you? If the service is essential then the government will be forced to step in. Perhaps as a settlement we could see some sort of regulation restored.
Its not like when EA folded and there was a strong AA waiting to expand with a bunch of good jobs. When a US fails the void will be filled by the Airtrans and Jetblues with low pay, no retirement plan or retiree health.
Dont you mean with no dues payers? Seems that there is not much difference any more between those companies and the legacy carriers. With the concessions that USAIR is demanding will those workers be worse off working for Jet Blue or even Airtran? They would be better off with SWA. If you were to compare workforces at the same point in years of sevice JetBlue and SWA workers are much better off than a TWU represented worker. Last week Bobby Gless, (you know him dont you?) told a couple of mechanics that he happened to run into that the TWU is heading us towards being like the Airtrans of the industry anyway.
Why do you not mention SWA?
You often speak as if you are some kind of businessman, well I'm sure you have read of JetBlues recent setbacks, increased costs, declining yields etc. Well there wonderboy have you compared JetBlues trajectory with many of the other upstarts in the past? Itsnt Jet Blue following a similar trajectory? Same with AirTran?
SWA is a different story, they dont usually go head to head in highly competitive markets, they make their own. But then again wouldnt any one of us, those of us who work for an airline, not the union, love to work at SWA?
How will this help us?
Us? Do you still collect a paycheck from an airline?
The only thing a strike does is accelerate the downward slide of the airline employee.
Oh really, so you suggest that we just keep giving concessions no matter what?
There is zero benifit for the workers!
There is no other way to stop the carnage. The AFA is right, we need to shut it down. If we were in Europe we would have done this last year.
Where are the benifits of AFL-CIO solidarity that your TWU always speak of? "United invincible" right? Or is that just rhetoric?
Here is one of your fellow AFL-CIO unions calling for action and what is your response-brainless?
Brainless is letting a union that takes philandering, irresposible, workers that should have been fired and appointing them to represent you. Brainless is supporting a union that claims that massive concessions for us is a "reality" while they use our dues to give themselves a different "reality'.
The Airtrans and the Jet Blues are not going to be able to handle all the flying that this country needs.Its time for workers to fight back. We know that unions like the TWU will never do it, hopefully there are other unions out there that will step up to the plate.
The fact is there is zero benifit for unions like the TWU who stand to risk the financial aid provided by companies where they represent workers if they particuipate in such an action.
The TWU has more to gain by just sitting back waiting for other carriers to fail so that those places where they have a lot of members can expand, then they can get more dues payers without actually letting them vote to allow the TWU to represent them. They know that with their reputation not too many airline workers would actually choose the TWU. Many would rather have no union at all than the twu. Can you blame them? The TWU has done more to hurt workers than any other organization.
This was sent to my by a dear longtime friend who is a flight attendant at AA.
Dear Friends,
I have no idea who wrote this, but you may not have seen it yet--
Source: SKYNET 11/04/2004
***
Mr. Tilton states:
"I know how hard this is for everyone." United CEO, Glenn Tilton trying to justify the need for additional wage concessions from Flight Attendants.
***
Mr. Tilton,
You think you know, but you have no idea.
You do not know what it is like to prep a cabin for evacuation.
You do not know what it is like to try to fight to keep a 39 year old man from dieing from an aneurysm over the mid-Atlantic.
You do not know what it is like to calm an unruly customer who has become drunk and dangerous in the middle of the night.
You do not face the threat of terrorism first hand as you go to work each day.
You have not evacuated an aircraft on fire.
You have not defended the cockpit when an attempt is made to breech it and crash an airplane.
You have not been physically assaulted by a passenger and beaten up, alone in a galley.
You have not witnessed a drunk defecate in first class.
You have not had to endure career threatening injuries suffered while working.
You have not had surgery on your spine because of your work.
You have not watched your flying partner cartwheel down a runway and die after being thrown out of first class on a DC-10.
You have not shed tears with a flight partner, who after instructing a mother on how to protect her baby in a preparation for evacuation-loses that child in a crash.
You do not have survivor guilt.
You have not seen 3 rows of business class sucked out of an airplane on a quiet night over the Pacific.
You have not hit your head on the ceiling of an airplane in unexpected clear air turbulence and broken your neck.
You have not calmed passengers in negative panic after flying thru severe weather conditions that you weren't sure you would fly out of.
You have not been on the front line working till you cannot take another step trying to bring mishandled, jaded customers back to United after they have been trapped by another employee group's workforce slowdown.
You have not suffered the insolence of a worn out, frightened public.
You have not flown in an airplane and dumped fuel while under a bomb threat.
You have not been raped or murdered in a layover hotel room.
You do not suffer from chronic post traumatic stress syndrome.
You have not fought a fire in an airplane galley at 35,000 feet.
You have not performed CPR for an hour on a passenger in cardiac arrest.
You have not had your throat slit by a terrorist and been flown into a building -
But United Flight Attendants, have collectively experienced all of these things and much, much more.
Oh, and one more thing, you have not been the heart and the soul of this airline for 5, 9, 12, 20, 35, 40 years.
"I know how hard this is for everyone."
You think you know, but you have no idea.
Author Unknown
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AAmech, you call them "Brainless', I call them courageous. Every union person should support the AFA!
Dear Friends,
I have no idea who wrote this, but you may not have seen it yet--
Source: SKYNET 11/04/2004
***
Mr. Tilton states:
"I know how hard this is for everyone." United CEO, Glenn Tilton trying to justify the need for additional wage concessions from Flight Attendants.
***
Mr. Tilton,
You think you know, but you have no idea.
You do not know what it is like to prep a cabin for evacuation.
You do not know what it is like to try to fight to keep a 39 year old man from dieing from an aneurysm over the mid-Atlantic.
You do not know what it is like to calm an unruly customer who has become drunk and dangerous in the middle of the night.
You do not face the threat of terrorism first hand as you go to work each day.
You have not evacuated an aircraft on fire.
You have not defended the cockpit when an attempt is made to breech it and crash an airplane.
You have not been physically assaulted by a passenger and beaten up, alone in a galley.
You have not witnessed a drunk defecate in first class.
You have not had to endure career threatening injuries suffered while working.
You have not had surgery on your spine because of your work.
You have not watched your flying partner cartwheel down a runway and die after being thrown out of first class on a DC-10.
You have not shed tears with a flight partner, who after instructing a mother on how to protect her baby in a preparation for evacuation-loses that child in a crash.
You do not have survivor guilt.
You have not seen 3 rows of business class sucked out of an airplane on a quiet night over the Pacific.
You have not hit your head on the ceiling of an airplane in unexpected clear air turbulence and broken your neck.
You have not calmed passengers in negative panic after flying thru severe weather conditions that you weren't sure you would fly out of.
You have not been on the front line working till you cannot take another step trying to bring mishandled, jaded customers back to United after they have been trapped by another employee group's workforce slowdown.
You have not suffered the insolence of a worn out, frightened public.
You have not flown in an airplane and dumped fuel while under a bomb threat.
You have not been raped or murdered in a layover hotel room.
You do not suffer from chronic post traumatic stress syndrome.
You have not fought a fire in an airplane galley at 35,000 feet.
You have not performed CPR for an hour on a passenger in cardiac arrest.
You have not had your throat slit by a terrorist and been flown into a building -
But United Flight Attendants, have collectively experienced all of these things and much, much more.
Oh, and one more thing, you have not been the heart and the soul of this airline for 5, 9, 12, 20, 35, 40 years.
"I know how hard this is for everyone."
You think you know, but you have no idea.
Author Unknown
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AAmech, you call them "Brainless', I call them courageous. Every union person should support the AFA!
If the job was so tough and pay so low no one would do it. As long as there are thousands of F/A waiting for recall and thousands of applicants then F/A will continue to experience downward wage pressure. When enough of them retire or leave to do something else, airlines will be forced to raise wages.
Oneflyer said:If the job was so tough and pay so low no one would do it. As long as there are thousands of F/A waiting for recall and thousands of applicants then F/A will continue to experience downward wage pressure. When enough of them retire or leave to do something else, airlines will be forced to raise wages.
[post="203562"][/post]
Well you obviously believe that we should all simply settle for the lowest wage that people will acccept instead of striving for the highest we can get through solidarity.
While companies have little trouble replacing workers that leave one at a time its much harder to try and replace them all at once. The larger the company and the higher the requirements the more difficult it is for the company.
If its ok for companies to use the leverage they posess then its ok for workers to do the same. Unionization levels the playing field, or at least it should, as long as you have the right union.
If its ok for companies to use the leverage they posess then its ok for workers to do the same. Unionization levels the playing field, or at least it should, as long as you have the right union.
If all it took was a union, then F/A and ramp workers would make the same salaries as pilots. Salaries are directly related to the skills that you posess.
Well you obviously believe that we should all simply settle for the lowest wage that people will acccept instead of striving for the highest we can get through solidarity.
Its not about settling for the lowest wage people will accept, its about the lowest wage that someone qualified and capable will accept, the less skill a job takes the more people that can do it, thus the lower the salary. If you want more than the lowest available wage you have to be able to do something faster, better, or at less cost than someone else. The problem with unions is that they want to be made more, but do not want to provide the productivity that would warrant a higher salary.
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