PSA1979, You appear to be a very intelligent individual who sees the problems that are associated with the AFA. Why is the AFA underfunded? Greed is the root of all evil. The locals should have a bigger piece of the pie with the union dues. Why not ask this question to your leaders. There needs to be change within the AFA leadership. You should consider running for office. Then you can sit around all day at the union office versus walking the front lines.
Afa-cwa Merge Or Go It Along
- Thread starter PITbull
- Start date
As per Pitbull's post on this very thread which rings so true reading this post by Hawk.
Pitbull wrote:
"When management writes it will be mostly to discredit the PIT AFA President, who they mostly despise and who they perceive most threatening to their "plan".
So what we have here is a desperate attempt to discredit a strong vocal and well know union leader who has the media’s attention as well as the attention of powerful politicians who will decide U’s fate in PA. Hawk’s post reflects the fear the upper management have of this one little bitty union leader. They are exposed, stripped naked and can been seen for what they really are because this union leader sees their true colors, ugly. I don't have to use adjectives here to describe this management team, I wrote them all over these boards already, just say, they are anything but truthful or labor friendly as they try to portray themselves. Hawk has PMed me a few times telling me how wrong I am when I point out the obvious under handed tactics of this management team. Hawk’s mentor and leader flyonthewall has PMed as well asking me to join his team of destroyers. These people, this so called management team does not want resistance, but surrender or they ask you to join their ranks of connivers and deceivers. They have tried and failed to get some union leaders in their back pockets with special favors and so forth, they will stop at nothing to get what they want, including more dishonesty on these boards. So take it for what it’s worth, which in Hawk’s case here is a big fat zero. So Hawk go back to CCYVille and crawl back into your lair with all your other union breaking team members and rethink another lie.
Pitbull wrote:
"When management writes it will be mostly to discredit the PIT AFA President, who they mostly despise and who they perceive most threatening to their "plan".
So what we have here is a desperate attempt to discredit a strong vocal and well know union leader who has the media’s attention as well as the attention of powerful politicians who will decide U’s fate in PA. Hawk’s post reflects the fear the upper management have of this one little bitty union leader. They are exposed, stripped naked and can been seen for what they really are because this union leader sees their true colors, ugly. I don't have to use adjectives here to describe this management team, I wrote them all over these boards already, just say, they are anything but truthful or labor friendly as they try to portray themselves. Hawk has PMed me a few times telling me how wrong I am when I point out the obvious under handed tactics of this management team. Hawk’s mentor and leader flyonthewall has PMed as well asking me to join his team of destroyers. These people, this so called management team does not want resistance, but surrender or they ask you to join their ranks of connivers and deceivers. They have tried and failed to get some union leaders in their back pockets with special favors and so forth, they will stop at nothing to get what they want, including more dishonesty on these boards. So take it for what it’s worth, which in Hawk’s case here is a big fat zero. So Hawk go back to CCYVille and crawl back into your lair with all your other union breaking team members and rethink another lie.
OK, Doitfordave. Since Hawk doesnt appear to want to answer the question and appears to be on a "personal" campaign against 1 person who posts here instead of answering the questions I've asked (and you appear to be following his lead), it's your turn.
Why do YOU care what AFA does in their business outside of their dealings with USAirways and why are you so concerned if they merge with CWA? Why do you care where or how they spend their money? Shouldnt CCY be worrying about whats going on with USAirways and the competition instead of what union the AFA might join with? What's in it for you?
Just taking a guess that DO works in CCY, otherwise I'd still be interested to hear why you care what AFA does.
Don't let certain people on the boards try to steer the topic and posts to where they want to go. Why do they continue the personal attacks of one particular union leader. Keep focused on WHY they REFUSE to answer a question and instead continue to post FUD messages here? Why?
Why do YOU care what AFA does in their business outside of their dealings with USAirways and why are you so concerned if they merge with CWA? Why do you care where or how they spend their money? Shouldnt CCY be worrying about whats going on with USAirways and the competition instead of what union the AFA might join with? What's in it for you?
Just taking a guess that DO works in CCY, otherwise I'd still be interested to hear why you care what AFA does.
Don't let certain people on the boards try to steer the topic and posts to where they want to go. Why do they continue the personal attacks of one particular union leader. Keep focused on WHY they REFUSE to answer a question and instead continue to post FUD messages here? Why?
...Sort of like sitting around the office all day in Crystal City reading message boards?Do_it_for_Dave said:
Because this union leader sees their true colors, their true intentions, can see how they are breaking every contract signed, she deals with people being abused daily even with a signed contract, sees how they make new and change old policy mid-stream to benefit themselves much to the chagrin of the employees welfare, including some really serious health issues which puts in serious jeopardy the employees health and welfare. Sees random and irrational firings at their whim on and on and on. This is a war they have declared on labor, and to the people who do not see it yet, it will hit you when it’s too damn late, so look and listen because they take no enemies. This management team realizes this labor leader has their number and they don’t want to be exposed as to their true purpose, or the actions they are taking to kill labor, so obviously they want to be discreet, but this labor leader is exposing them and therefore the heat is on and turned up high.tadjr said:
Whatnow?
Veteran
- Nov 4, 2003
- 862
- 8
Here's a question.....What would happen if US F/A's vote to change to CWA and then down the road there is a merger with another Airline...let's just say for grins...United, United decided to remain AFA "single craft", and they were to be the dominant or takeover carrier, we now would not have the same unions to merge seniorities...would US F/A's become extinct like TWA's F/A have? Is that even a possibility? :unsure:
All AFA members, of all AFA member airlines, will vote for affiliation with CWA. The merger vote is not airline specific.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #23
What now,
United and USAirways along with 24 other carriers are all under the same umbrella. The vote before the members includes all carrier's members who will vote collectively for either viable option to keep our union strong. There is no separate vote for United.
Keep in mind there are two votes before the members. It's not just a ballot on the AFA-CWA merger possibility. And majority (50% plus 1) rules.
United and USAirways along with 24 other carriers are all under the same umbrella. The vote before the members includes all carrier's members who will vote collectively for either viable option to keep our union strong. There is no separate vote for United.
Keep in mind there are two votes before the members. It's not just a ballot on the AFA-CWA merger possibility. And majority (50% plus 1) rules.
Whatnow? said:
I've heard rumblings from United that they no longer want AFA at all. Doesn't this seem rather strange since they are the majority represented by AFA? Or am I wrong? :unsure:
OP
- Thread Starter
- #25
Folks,
Told you in another thread that management would go after only 1 AFA local President, and that is Pittsburgh.
Do_it_for_you,
Regarding your comments to PSA 1979, she's been there and done that.
Regarding your comments of the PIT AFA President, you are all coming out now. Is it because you are preparing us for round #3????? Trying to attack the strong labor leaders, perhaps to dismantle the unions in the process? Feeling threatened?
Eat your friggen heart out! And obviously, ITS ALL ABOUT HER!
Regarding your comments on your implication of AFA greed....you and all at the palace know all to well about greed.
Keep on pushing that "trump".
Told you in another thread that management would go after only 1 AFA local President, and that is Pittsburgh.
Do_it_for_you,
Regarding your comments to PSA 1979, she's been there and done that.
Regarding your comments of the PIT AFA President, you are all coming out now. Is it because you are preparing us for round #3????? Trying to attack the strong labor leaders, perhaps to dismantle the unions in the process? Feeling threatened?
Eat your friggen heart out! And obviously, ITS ALL ABOUT HER!
Regarding your comments on your implication of AFA greed....you and all at the palace know all to well about greed.
Keep on pushing that "trump".
Whatnow?
Veteran
- Nov 4, 2003
- 862
- 8
It is very unfortunate the way most of the AFA members aren't responding to these crucial votes...but understandable. I can hardly wait to see what the turnout will be on this next one. The morale out there is at an all time low....how much harder do you have to work....for smaller paychecks and with fewer and fewer employees.... only to be told by mgmnt that it's still not good enough.....we need more....where is it going to stop? How many more co-workers do we have to lose to fund mgmnts poor business plans? What's going to be the next excuse for more concessions? And how do you even begin to restore morale for support after all this?
The Truth behind the AFA-CWA Merger
The absorption of AFA by CWA holds no one responsible for the fiscal mismanagement that led your union to this point, will not correct the institutional failures of the AFA. Despite the fact that the members of AFA never approved expenditures for the Delta campaign, AFA spent approximately eight million of your hard-earned dollars on this doomed effort.
While the current international staff was designed to represent over 50,000 members, we now have approximately 36,000 members. That represents an almost 30% decrease in the number of members represented. However, there has been no reduction in staff positions at the international office and the CWA agreement provides that none will occur: that equates to overstaffing.
Remember that YOU, the line F/A, control the union. The LEC’S Presidents that wish to remain in office are supposed to adhere to the wishes of the members they were elected to serve. If they do not, then the local membership has the power and the obligation to remove those LECP's from office. This process should begin with the PIT LEC President.
The AFA International Secretary-Treasurer, Paul MacKinnon, publicly withdrew his support for the proposed merger with CWA in presentations before the MEC and BOD.
· Mr. MacKinnon admitted that the information the IO has presented to the members is decidedly one-sided, omitting any unfavorable information.
· Mr. MacKinnon disclosed that the union is not, in fact, facing the dire financial crisis as previously portrayed by the IO. Rather, Mr. MacKinnon revealed that the union currently expects to break even at the end of the year.
· Mr. MacKinnon admitted that further belt-tightening at the IO could address any financial difficulties facing the union.
· Mr. MacKinnon’s disclosures clearly indicate that there is no immediate financial need to consider a merger with CWA.
· CWA would gain ultimate control over AFA’s resources if the proposed draft merger agreement with CWA were approved.
· When confronted, Pat Friend was ultimately forced to admit that the agenda item she had presented was specifically and intentionally designed to leave the line flight attendants she was elected to serve out of the ultimate decision-making process as to whether AFA would merge with CWA.
The members have two options with the schedule vote:
Surrender control of your union and your dues money to the Communication Workers of America (CWA). CWA is a 700,000-member organization with different interests, experiences, and obligations from those of flight attendants. While the IO has claimed that CWA will not raise your dues for four years, we expect your dues will rise dramatically after the four-year period. In addition, CWA will retain ultimate control over the union’s expenditures.
OR
Increase your monthly dues payment by $6 and retain control.
http://www.afacouncil21.org/newsletter/det...ewsID=10]
The absorption of AFA by CWA holds no one responsible for the fiscal mismanagement that led your union to this point, will not correct the institutional failures of the AFA. Despite the fact that the members of AFA never approved expenditures for the Delta campaign, AFA spent approximately eight million of your hard-earned dollars on this doomed effort.
While the current international staff was designed to represent over 50,000 members, we now have approximately 36,000 members. That represents an almost 30% decrease in the number of members represented. However, there has been no reduction in staff positions at the international office and the CWA agreement provides that none will occur: that equates to overstaffing.
Remember that YOU, the line F/A, control the union. The LEC’S Presidents that wish to remain in office are supposed to adhere to the wishes of the members they were elected to serve. If they do not, then the local membership has the power and the obligation to remove those LECP's from office. This process should begin with the PIT LEC President.
The AFA International Secretary-Treasurer, Paul MacKinnon, publicly withdrew his support for the proposed merger with CWA in presentations before the MEC and BOD.
· Mr. MacKinnon admitted that the information the IO has presented to the members is decidedly one-sided, omitting any unfavorable information.
· Mr. MacKinnon disclosed that the union is not, in fact, facing the dire financial crisis as previously portrayed by the IO. Rather, Mr. MacKinnon revealed that the union currently expects to break even at the end of the year.
· Mr. MacKinnon admitted that further belt-tightening at the IO could address any financial difficulties facing the union.
· Mr. MacKinnon’s disclosures clearly indicate that there is no immediate financial need to consider a merger with CWA.
· CWA would gain ultimate control over AFA’s resources if the proposed draft merger agreement with CWA were approved.
· When confronted, Pat Friend was ultimately forced to admit that the agenda item she had presented was specifically and intentionally designed to leave the line flight attendants she was elected to serve out of the ultimate decision-making process as to whether AFA would merge with CWA.
The members have two options with the schedule vote:
Surrender control of your union and your dues money to the Communication Workers of America (CWA). CWA is a 700,000-member organization with different interests, experiences, and obligations from those of flight attendants. While the IO has claimed that CWA will not raise your dues for four years, we expect your dues will rise dramatically after the four-year period. In addition, CWA will retain ultimate control over the union’s expenditures.
OR
Increase your monthly dues payment by $6 and retain control.
http://www.afacouncil21.org/newsletter/det...ewsID=10]
OP
- Thread Starter
- #28
S&M,
Interesting again. I believe I know who you are and where you come from. Its not USAirways.
Pat NEVER said, alledged, implied, even hinted that the intent of the agenda item was to leave the members out of the vote. Quite the contrary. Mr. MacKinon withdrew his support for a CWA merger because, he being the TREASURER, found a way to remain "solo" craft by raising dues instead. YOU failed to mention that he stated repeatedly that something had to be done and ALL Officers were in agreement with that and that we could not remain at status quo. He did imply that all things being relative, IF United management PAYS BACK TO THE UNION the $900,000 worth of negotiations cost, that we could manage however, not without raising dues which haven't been raised in 11 years. United, may I remind everyone is still in BK, and no word yet on the fate or remedy to their pension liability of $7 billion, which is preventing them from emerging from BK they alledge. Paul ALSO SATED we have an over $2 million dollar deficit and that is with no one going in for negotiations or major arbitrations. In 4 years many of the carriers will be in section 6 negotiations at the same time. What then Eistein??? So far, U is at the top of the list and Management won't pay for MDA negotiations for U. and there is hint yet again of Round #3 for U. Pat Friend attended a Local PIT AFA meeting in June, and Paul Mac Kinnon was invited to come in October so that the members could listen to both sides and both arguments.
You also MISquoted the facts. AFA spent close to $5 Million over a 5 year period to organize DELTA of 26,000 members. This was approved in 1996 by the Board of Directors who represents there members. At the time the budget alloted for that as part of the "Organizing Fund" THAT IS INHERENT OF EVERY SINGLE UNION IN EXISTENCE. And AFA sits at 33,000 active members today down from 50,000. Five Airlines since 2002, went into Bankruptcy out of those 26 carriers. And the two who went into BK, of the 5, are two of the largest carriers of AFA. Again, I REPEAT, Hindsight is 20/20 when it comes to Delta. At the time, it was THE RIGHT THING TO DO. Unions do not sell a product, they are nonprofit organizations and are driven and operate soley on dues dollars.
The CWA is well diversified in that their members are more "industrial workers" VS airline workers only. If this merger would happen to be approved,THIS TRANSLATES into airline managements not being able to control our numbers by crippling us with furloughs of airline workers only. You can obviously see why our management DOES NOT WANT THIS TO HAPPEN.
Catch the drift????????
Interesting again. I believe I know who you are and where you come from. Its not USAirways.
Pat NEVER said, alledged, implied, even hinted that the intent of the agenda item was to leave the members out of the vote. Quite the contrary. Mr. MacKinon withdrew his support for a CWA merger because, he being the TREASURER, found a way to remain "solo" craft by raising dues instead. YOU failed to mention that he stated repeatedly that something had to be done and ALL Officers were in agreement with that and that we could not remain at status quo. He did imply that all things being relative, IF United management PAYS BACK TO THE UNION the $900,000 worth of negotiations cost, that we could manage however, not without raising dues which haven't been raised in 11 years. United, may I remind everyone is still in BK, and no word yet on the fate or remedy to their pension liability of $7 billion, which is preventing them from emerging from BK they alledge. Paul ALSO SATED we have an over $2 million dollar deficit and that is with no one going in for negotiations or major arbitrations. In 4 years many of the carriers will be in section 6 negotiations at the same time. What then Eistein??? So far, U is at the top of the list and Management won't pay for MDA negotiations for U. and there is hint yet again of Round #3 for U. Pat Friend attended a Local PIT AFA meeting in June, and Paul Mac Kinnon was invited to come in October so that the members could listen to both sides and both arguments.
You also MISquoted the facts. AFA spent close to $5 Million over a 5 year period to organize DELTA of 26,000 members. This was approved in 1996 by the Board of Directors who represents there members. At the time the budget alloted for that as part of the "Organizing Fund" THAT IS INHERENT OF EVERY SINGLE UNION IN EXISTENCE. And AFA sits at 33,000 active members today down from 50,000. Five Airlines since 2002, went into Bankruptcy out of those 26 carriers. And the two who went into BK, of the 5, are two of the largest carriers of AFA. Again, I REPEAT, Hindsight is 20/20 when it comes to Delta. At the time, it was THE RIGHT THING TO DO. Unions do not sell a product, they are nonprofit organizations and are driven and operate soley on dues dollars.
The CWA is well diversified in that their members are more "industrial workers" VS airline workers only. If this merger would happen to be approved,THIS TRANSLATES into airline managements not being able to control our numbers by crippling us with furloughs of airline workers only. You can obviously see why our management DOES NOT WANT THIS TO HAPPEN.
Catch the drift????????
HAWK wrote: “The AFA membership should vote NO concerning the CWA merger. It is all about collecting union dues.â€
HAWK, we all know you are management and therefore without honor or morals.
There is NO dues increase if AFA merges with CWA and there will be NO increase to dues for at least 4-years if the merger goes through. At that time dues will be LIMITED to be an AVERAGE of what other CWA unions pay. Presently that AVERAGE is slightly LESS than what the Flight Attendants are paying today!
Take your lies and your threats and go. The employees want you gone! You have no friends and NO support here.
Obviously this is a topic that has the Corporate Raiders worried. Clearly they do not want the flight attendants to vote FOR a CWA merger. Could it be that joining with a stronger, more financially secure union could empower the flight attendants to once again stand up for their rights? A-b-s-o-l-u-t-e-l-y! Which is exactly what is causing the thieving thugs of U management much concern.
Management types like HAWK and DO- IT-FOR-Dave are already spewing their poisonous rhetoric and I predict that before the vote is counted, even more of them will crawl out from underneath their rocks in an attempt to get the merger voted down.
Why is U management all over these boards defaming the merger and anyone who may support it? Could it be that U Management believes they have the financially weakened AFA on the ropes and does not want the power of the 700,000 CWA members or their multi-million dollar STRIKE FUND getting in the way of the kill? One thing is for sure, AFA merging with the CWA will definitely be a bad thing for this MANAGEMENT and their plans to bust the employees. Which is exactly why flight attendants should consider voting FOR the merger.
HAWK, we all know you are management and therefore without honor or morals.
There is NO dues increase if AFA merges with CWA and there will be NO increase to dues for at least 4-years if the merger goes through. At that time dues will be LIMITED to be an AVERAGE of what other CWA unions pay. Presently that AVERAGE is slightly LESS than what the Flight Attendants are paying today!
Take your lies and your threats and go. The employees want you gone! You have no friends and NO support here.
Obviously this is a topic that has the Corporate Raiders worried. Clearly they do not want the flight attendants to vote FOR a CWA merger. Could it be that joining with a stronger, more financially secure union could empower the flight attendants to once again stand up for their rights? A-b-s-o-l-u-t-e-l-y! Which is exactly what is causing the thieving thugs of U management much concern.
Management types like HAWK and DO- IT-FOR-Dave are already spewing their poisonous rhetoric and I predict that before the vote is counted, even more of them will crawl out from underneath their rocks in an attempt to get the merger voted down.
Why is U management all over these boards defaming the merger and anyone who may support it? Could it be that U Management believes they have the financially weakened AFA on the ropes and does not want the power of the 700,000 CWA members or their multi-million dollar STRIKE FUND getting in the way of the kill? One thing is for sure, AFA merging with the CWA will definitely be a bad thing for this MANAGEMENT and their plans to bust the employees. Which is exactly why flight attendants should consider voting FOR the merger.
Whatnow? Posted on Nov 4 2003, 07:21 PM
What,
That is EXACTLY what we are trying to do. We were burned by AFA in our last contract (the contract no one voted for but it passed by 51%) and we are actively trying to dump AFA just as the NW flights attendants have. So, regardless of whether AFA votes in the CWA (is there any question? or course they will vote YES, regardless of how the voting turns out) we will be trying to leave the AFA completely anyway. We may not be able to pull it off quickly, but we will pull it off.
As I said before, take a look at the United f/a's next time you walk by them.....Did you see any AFA pins on their lapels?
FYI - Our beef isn't with the US f/a's, it's with the AFA. Yes, the AFA that closed our forum boards because all it was was a rant about how crappy AFA is. :angry:
What,
That is EXACTLY what we are trying to do. We were burned by AFA in our last contract (the contract no one voted for but it passed by 51%) and we are actively trying to dump AFA just as the NW flights attendants have. So, regardless of whether AFA votes in the CWA (is there any question? or course they will vote YES, regardless of how the voting turns out) we will be trying to leave the AFA completely anyway. We may not be able to pull it off quickly, but we will pull it off.
As I said before, take a look at the United f/a's next time you walk by them.....Did you see any AFA pins on their lapels?
FYI - Our beef isn't with the US f/a's, it's with the AFA. Yes, the AFA that closed our forum boards because all it was was a rant about how crappy AFA is. :angry:
