Afa - Ual Negotiations

spacewaitress

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Aug 27, 2002
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One realizes the company is not just playing hardball but is indeed out to exploit the BK process to achieve its ultimate goals of gutting the work agreements with its unions.

After reading the thread on AMFA's negotiations and the information the AFA membership has received after only a few hours of negotiations with our union, no other conclusion can be drawn.

United management's arrogance and unwillingness to allow reason to enter into negotiations is evident.

According to our Financial Review Committee that is negotiating for AFA...

"The demands from United included a 6.2% wage reduction on base rates of pay and all premium pay as part of the $138M. Also contained within the Term Sheet was a demand for an additional 4% reduction on all hourly rates of pay from December 31, 2004 to the company’s exit from bankruptcy, for a total proposed wage reduction of 10.2%. An extension of the 4% hourly rate of pay reduction was included, for a period of up to six months, following exit from bankruptcy in the event the company would otherwise fail to meet financial covenant agreements. United management indicated today that they anticipated they would most likely need that additional six months of 4% wage cuts after exit from bankruptcy.

This afternoon, during our meeting, it became clear that although the 4% hourly rate of pay reduction was contained in the Term Sheet, Flight Attendants would not receive any credit from that 4% towards United’s target goal of $138M. In other words, United is demanding concessions from Flight Attendants in the amount of $138M through wage, benefits and work rules; plus the termination of our defined benefit pension plan, plus an additional 4% wage reduction from December 31, 2004 to a period ending six months after our exit from bankruptcy.

When management revealed this sneaky figure was in addition to their already exorbitant demands and were unable to provide any reasonable rationale for the fact that this item which was included in their own Term Sheet, would not be valued toward the target set for AFA, talks between AFA and the company stalled."

"...AFA remains committed to following the requirements of the law as we proceed with our goal of minimizing the impact of United management’s failures being borne on the sacrifices of its Flight Attendants..."

As UAL Tech says, "I feel the love now."

If this stance by management continues I only see one outcome...liquidation.
 
Not disagreeing with you here. Concessions always stink.

But with regard to the extra 4%, it is my understanding that it is because the work rule changes take some time to implement, therefore the savings to the company is not immediate. The extra 4% until BK exit takes into account "ramp in" time. So in effect (at least in theory) it is included in the total $ ask.

The 6 month 4% extension is incase the implemetation of the work rules takes longer than expected. Again, I'm not defending it, just explaining it as I undestand it.

All the term sheets have the same stipulation and explanation. There is always the option of a straight pay cut without work rule changes. This option eliminates the 4% clause because the savings are immediate to the company. This is one option being considered by ALPA.
 
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All I read on the private UAL flight attendant board is it's over. No one seems to even want this company to survive. As flight attendants, there's not a whole hellofalot to lose.
 
If that is your perception then I can't argue it.

However I disagree. What I see all over is people who don't like what's going on, but understand that life has changed since 9/11.

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on what you read on F/A message boards. Just like ALPA message boards are notorious for the same few people with the same old song and no new solutions.

The only real source for info is to attend official meetings and hear what your elected reps have to say. I go to all ALPA meetings, and I know a few F/A's in various union positions. Spoke to one just last night. I know that no one is happy about the term sheets. But I disagree that everyone is ready to shut the place down and walk away.

I believe in the end, when emotions calm, cooler heads will prevail.

Just my opinion of course. B)
 
Bottom Line is that the company holds almost all the cards. If they don't get what they WANT (not necessarly need), they can run to mama (the judge) and ask that it be imposed. Negoiate the best you can now because the alternative may be worse.
 
Borescope said:
Bottom Line is that the company holds almost all the cards. If they don't get what they WANT (not necessarly need), they can run to mama (the judge) and ask that it be imposed. Negoiate the best you can now because the alternative may be worse.
[post="205605"][/post]​
<_< Bottom line, is there comes a time when a jobs not worth the investment in time required by management! When one comes to that point, a"Strike" is vary posible!!!!
 
It was very obvious that at least one airline would push the concessions as far as they could before labor pushed back to the point that the viability of the company comes in question. As I've said on the US forum, these are your jobs and you have to think long and hard about what the consequences of all that you consider but there is no doubt that if you don't keep the company from continuing to back for more and more, that is exactly what they will do.

My best to each of you. It does amaze me how well the employees at UA and US continue to deliver very comparable service to what they have delivered in the past under far less stressful situations.
 
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WorldTraveler said:
No one seems to even want this company to survive. As flight attendants, there's not a whole hellofalot to lose.
[post="205689"][/post]​
Yes that is my perception...it's my personal feeling as well. I agree with MCI that the time put into this job won't be worth the rewards. Everyone will make up their own minds about that.

As far as liquidation...it seems the natural outcome if we are heading for strikes at UAL. I don't think anyone wants to burn the place down, but at what point does it become worth a fight? If it happens, the company will have forced it upon all of us.

Furlough notices went out yesterday at CS Den. There will be one agent at each narrowbody gate, according to a super that I spoke with. It was a hard day yesterday for them.

It really has come down to doing battle. If the company forces it, what choices do we have? It's that all or none mentality on the company's end that's leaving employees with very little incentive to care at all.

The stance from the company is incomprehensible...I say stance. The bean counters still don't understand that this is a service business and they really do need sort of support from the employees for the product to be worth it to the consumer. Especially these days with so many choices.

All I see is the same old disconnect between labor and management. I'd like for some of them to walk in our shoes...they might get it then...how to deliver a quality product.
 
spacewaitress said:
Furlough notices went out yesterday at CS Den. There will be one agent at each narrowbody gate, according to a super that I spoke with. It was a hard day yesterday for them.
[post="205802"][/post]​

Rumor has it that AA is headed in the same direction of 1 agent per gate. How many times are they going to try this before they finally decide that this staffing formula does not work?

Dealing with boarding issues, the EGR, problems on the a/c (seat dupes, catering issues that f/as can't leave the a/c to handle, checking carry on luggage, etc), last minute check-ins...
Can't be done with one person AND get the plane pushed on time. It's been tried, and tried, and tried. And, it has failed everytime. One agent can not be in multiple places at one time. I don't know how agents get it done with two!

To Management: Have a clue. Take two, they're small.
 
Tlaking to a CSR in Denver yesterday, was told that 125 of them received pink slips. Another friend in SAN called me last night, he said that 7 there received their's as well.

Is this fact?
 
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jimntx said:
Dealing with boarding issues, the EGR, problems on the a/c (seat dupes, catering issues that f/as can't leave the a/c to handle, checking carry on luggage, etc), last minute check-ins...
Can't be done with one person AND get the plane pushed on time. It's been tried, and tried, and tried. And, it has failed everytime. One agent can not be in multiple places at one time. I don't know how agents get it done with two!
[post="205808"][/post]​
Jackpot!

One thing for sure. Carry on bags become a problem when they become a problem. And then, we need someone on the jetway checking bags.

How can 1 person be in 2 places at one time. They can't.

Translation...late departures.

They don't get it. Who cares.
 
767jetz said:
If that is your perception then I can't argue it.

However I disagree. What I see all over is people who don't like what's going on, but understand that life has changed since 9/11.

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on what you read on F/A message boards. Just like ALPA message boards are notorious for the same few people with the same old song and no new solutions.

The only real source for info is to attend official meetings and hear what your elected reps have to say. I go to all ALPA meetings, and I know a few F/A's in various union positions. Spoke to one just last night. I know that no one is happy about the term sheets. But I disagree that everyone is ready to shut the place down and walk away.

I believe in the end, when emotions calm, cooler heads will prevail.

Just my opinion of course. B)
[post="205589"][/post]​



you may not believe it... but i live it
and not through "some of my best friends anecdotes"
our "elected" reps are so far out of touch with the membership they pushed through a merger with CWA in spite of the fact that 80% of ual members of AFA were opposed to it and voted against it
there is a point of diminishing returns and we as a group have reached ours
 
I am so sorry to see things turn for the worst with you guys. For many months it appeared you guys were able to keep positive and believe in UAL. Here lately I can hardly tell the difference in your board and US Airway's. We at U know how you feel. Best to all. Keep your chin up. We at U DO understand. :)
 

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