AFTER the next(D O T) China Award

[nbmcg01]

<_< Oh!---- You were talking China? I thought we were talking Baseball! ---- Go Cards!!!!!

LOL!!! GO CARDS!!! YEA STL!!!! I wonder which airline(s) are now flying the Cards and the RAMS?

 

[UALDC767]

It's a compelling case if you ignore the facts that UAL could fly this today if they'd simply cut back on other China services, which isn't an option available to CO or AA.

Can you show me where these "facts" about UAL being able to move services between cities are?

thanks,

DC

 

[eolesen]

Can you show me where these "facts" about UAL being able to move services between cities are?

From the 1999 air services agreement:

"On Route A, any designated U.S. airline may operate combination and all-cargo services with full traffic rights between any point or points in the United States, via Tokyo or another point in Japan, to Shanghai, Guangzhou, Beijing and two additional points in China to be selected by the United States, from among Chinese airports open to scheduled international operations."

At the time of this order, only UA and NW were authorized on Route A, so they could rearrange existing slots to offer IAD-PEK service. The only thing that might be standing in the way of this would be having the Route 246 certificate amended to include Washington as a terminal point.

 

[DLFlyer31]

DFW doesn’t offer service to 2 countries in east Asia.

I guess Japan and South Korea are one country now. If you weren't aware, KE flies DFW-ICN.

 

[MAH4546]

From the 1999 air services agreement:

"On Route A, any designated U.S. airline may operate combination and all-cargo services with full traffic rights between any point or points in the United States, via Tokyo or another point in Japan, to Shanghai, Guangzhou, Beijing and two additional points in China to be selected by the United States, from among Chinese airports open to scheduled international operations."

At the time of this order, only UA and NW were authorized on Route A, so they could rearrange existing slots to offer IAD-PEK service. The only thing that might be standing in the way of this would be having the Route 246 certificate amended to include Washington as a terminal point.

That applies to to 21 of UA's and 14 of NW's authorities, which can be switched as they please. However, UA's ORD-PVG cannot be switched. I'm not sure how NW's NRT-CAN authority works, though, because it is from NRT.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

That applies to to 21 of UA's and 14 of NW's authorities, which can be switched as they please. However, UA's ORD-PVG cannot be switched. I'm not sure how NW's NRT-CAN authority works, though, because it is from NRT.

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If UA's ORD/PVG Cannot be switched(if THAT was UA's plan), would the DOT then grant UA, ANOTHER China route ??

Just a guess, but I'm starting to think because of all the China routes that NW and UAL have, that this "thing" will be between AA and CO, with the nod to AA, because Co already has 2 *China routes.

NH/BB's

 

[boxer]

Are the routes awarded to create parity among the airlines?

I would think the needs of the traveling and shipping public should be foremost. If so, perhaps NW and UA should not be counted out.

 

[eolesen]

It's not about distribution of the wealth. And unless you're counting HKG, which isn't as restrictive to serve as mainland China, CO and AA are at parity right now with one daily frequency each..

 

[FWAAA]

Are the routes awarded to create parity among the airlines?

I would think the needs of the traveling and shipping public should be foremost. If so, perhaps NW and UA should not be counted out.

No, but the DOT gave pretty short shrift to NW and UA in the 2005-06 award decision which granted CO and AA their first China frequencies. In 2004, both NW and UA were granted seven additional frequencies each simply because they were available only to incumbents. So the DOT rubber-stamped whatever NW and UA put in front of them.

Now, the incumbent-only award competition (seven frequencies for 2007) includes both CO and AA in addition to the dominant carriers to China (NW and UA).

Not too big a stretch to conclude that the needs of the traveling and shipping public might be best met by granting the new frequencies to non-dominant carriers instead of the entrenched dominant airlines.

All of a sudden NW wants seven more frequencies to fly nonstop USA-China. It could convert any of its existing combination frequencies to nonstop service any day it wants (instead of flying all of them from NRT). But that need didn't become very compelling until CO and AA are in the running for more China access.

All of a sudden UA says the most compelling need is a Washington DC flight? It could have begun that in 2004. Or even earlier. But just like above, that need didn't become really compelling until it was possible that CO or AA would get a second daily flight to the PRC.

IMO, AA was correct to dismiss the NW and UA arguments with its one paragraph dismissal. My prediction: CO wins it handily.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

FWAAA, you may be very right about CO.

BUT that brings us BACK to "square one"

What does AA...(WHO will NOT "sit around").."DO" to get into CHINA ????????

FWAA, think of that question...FIRST..Without a full acquisition of NWA.

Then....plan "B" .


NH/BB's

 

[eolesen]

Bears, I suggest you get over your idea that AA is going to buy NWA just to get into China... It isn't worth the pain and misery.

What AA probably will do in the interim is add HKG, and hope for more frequencies in one of the future award cases, or better yet, that the renegotiations which are supposed to be taking place with China this year result in more frequencies being added outside the 7 weekly frequencies being added each year between now and 2010.

Under the 2004 agreement, a total of nine carriers were allowed to be named by the US. Personally (and I'm sure WorldTraveler will vehemently disagree), I'm of the opinion that with three cargo carriers and four passenger carriers at the moment, it's more likely that pressure to name a fourth cargo carrier in 2008 will push DL's potential entry to 2010.