ALPA AAA MEC Thread for 8/10-8/17

[BottomFeeder]

Guess that settles it then.

Why doesn't the MEC just unanimously "decide" to reinstute your defined benefit pension plan, and everything else you lost in BK concessions. You'll be all set! Why didn't they think of this sooner?

We would not want to do that since the West would try to steal it as well.

You see the AWA MEC motto is Feel The Need For GREED.

 

[SkyRat]

US Airways ALPA MEC CODE-A-PHONE UPDATE - August 13, 2007


BOS F/O Rep. LEC Update - August 14, 2007

Gents,

Forget about the Nicolau award. It was for drill purposes only.

Your MEC has already unanimously decided to keep the two operations separate indefinitely, and to pursue separate contracts of equivalent value. In so doing, the Nicolau Award will sit on the shelf forever.

And the first battle in this war to reach separate contracts of equivalent value is our demand for immediate pay parity, with the MEC meeting on Wednesday to get this fight started.

And a fight it will be, so get ready.

"Anything else is rubbish."

Garland

Talk about shooting from the hip. Garland, you might want to consult a FEW attorneys prior to disseminating this kind of statements.

The East keeps giving "The CO." attorneys plenty of ammo. Oh well!!!

GL

 

[Tiger 1050]

Talk about shooting from the hip. Garland, you might want to consult a FEW attorneys prior to disseminating this kind of statements.

The East keeps giving "The CO." attorneys plenty of ammo. Oh well!!!

GL

Yeah I must admit I am truely surprised at the stupidity considering their superior "experience" level. I have to assume that most of the east pilots are not this... well... dumb.

Good day little children...

 

[Phoenix]

Yeah I must admit I am truely surprised at the stupidity considering their superior "experience" level. I have to assume that most of the east pilots are not this... well... dumb.

Good day little children...

Garland is about one level above 320, just smart enough to be dangerous.

 

[EastUS]

Yeah I must admit I am truely surprised at the stupidity considering their superior "experience" level. I have to assume that most of the east pilots are not this... well... dumb.

Good day little children...

"Yeah I must admit I am truely surprised at the stupidity considering their superior "experience" level."

Don't be. There's a different "world" within which the career Alpo sorts exist that's hardly reflective of line pilots in any way. Nothing that springs forth from Alpo people surprises or shocks me in any fashion anymore.

 

[Junebug172]

Your MEC has already unanimously decided to keep the two operations separate indefinitely, and to pursue separate contracts of equivalent value. In so doing, the Nicolau Award will sit on the shelf forever.

Does Parker know that Garland is the new CEO?

 

[USA320Pilot]

After discussing with an USAPA Officer the drive to remove ALPA from both the US Airways and AWA property according to their Council, Scham, Scham, Meltz, and Petersen, in 1954 the Teamsters sued the NLRB over control of a seniority list because the Teamsters desired to re-write a seniority list outside contract negotiations. The NLRB disapproved this action, which resulted in the Teamsters complaint filed in court. The case was filed with the Second District Federal Court who ruled in favor of the union; however, the lower court’s decision was appealed and over turned by the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court ruled in favor of the NLRB when it issued Citation # 107 NLRB 837; NLRB v Teamsters, 225 F. 2d. 343. On page 19 the Supreme Court said, “In 1954, the NLRB ruled that seniority status in mergers must be resolved by agreement between the employer and the union, not by the union unilaterally.â€

What is germane to our pilot group dispute and important to note is that the Nicolau Award is a private agreement among the parties, ALPA is a party to the Award, and ALPA is pledged to defend it. However, what is very important to understand is that if ALPA is no longer present than it cannot defend the Award!

And, seniority rights live in a CBA and not necessarily in an outside agreement. As you know, Section 22 of our current contracts is not closed and paragraph 22.B.1 of the East contract says, “Seniority of a pilot shall be based upon the length of service of an airline pilot in the employ of the Company or its predecessor airline companies whose operations have been taken by the Company.â€

The Supreme Court ruling above, the removal of ALPA from the seniority integration process, current contract rights afforded in Section 22 of the ALPA contract, and the removal of ALPA from both of our properties can vacate the Nicolau Award.

Once USAPA takes control over the combined pilot group there will be a new seniority integration negotiation. USAPA cannot deprive, and will not deprive, the West their right to negotiate a new seniority integration agreement and they will allow the process to carry out. USAPA and their Counsel clearly understands they cannot “lock out†the minority group (the AWA pilots) because this would create a DFR lawsuit, which could be won by the plaintiff. But, the majority group can “vote out†the minority group and implement a seniority integration, which can be effectively imposed. Basically USAPA could close the question, call the vote, call for the “I’s†who would decide the matter, the case would be closed, and seniority imposition would occur.

Also noteworthy, as USAPA grows their case and position continues to gain strength through the expertise of their Counsel. They are very close to filing the application for a card count and representational election.

Gentlemen, it is my understanding that the Rice Committee hopes to have recommendations/solutions by around Labor Day.

To make it perfectly clear to you what will happen, without a “realistic solution†that will likely be proposed by the Rice Committee, USAPA will become the new bargaining agent for the US Airways and the AWA pilots in the not-to-distant future. Next the seniority award/seniority integration will be re-visited. USAPA will not deprive the minority group of pilots of their legal rights to participate in the seniority negotiation process. Once the minority group presents their case in argument, with no agreement between the parties a new seniority list can be presented to the membership and imposed on the minority list.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[b737fo]

To make it perfectly clear to you what will happen, without a “realistic solutionâ€￾ that will likely be proposed by the Rice Committee, USAPA will become the new bargaining agent for the US Airways and the AWA pilots in the not-to-distant future. Next the seniority award/seniority integration will be re-visited. USAPA will not deprive the minority group of pilots of their legal rights to participate in the seniority negotiation process. Once the minority group presents their case in argument, with no agreement between the parties a new seniority list can be presented to the membership and imposed on the minority list.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

Part of me almost wants to see the above scenario play out because I am pretty sure that a new contract negotiated by this USAPA would have a hard time passing in a vote if this union was forced on the pilots of AWA. I don't see any AWA pilots agreeing to agency shop rules or paying any dues to this new organization if they are forced upon the west and if you combine that with the typical "vote no" crowds around the airline industry then the chances of obtaining a new combined contract is pretty slim IMO.

Hey EastUS, you seem like you are pretty tired of the ALPA crowd around AAA and National. You going to run for a leadership position at USAPA?

 

[700UW]

It is not Scham, Scham and Meltz, it is Seham, Seham.

And the IBT case was all ready explained to and your interpretation is wrong once again, but who would expect you ever admit it.

Even if a new union is enacted it does not change the binding arbitration award.

 

[Bear96]

After discussing with an USAPA Officer the drive to remove ALPA from both the US Airways and AWA property according to their Council, Scham, Scham, Meltz, and Petersen, in 1954 the Teamsters sued the NLRB over control of a seniority list because the Teamsters desired to re-write a seniority list outside contract negotiations. The NLRB disapproved this action, which resulted in the Teamsters complaint filed in court. The case was filed with the Second District Federal Court who ruled in favor of the union; however, the lower court’s decision was appealed and over turned by the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court ruled in favor of the NLRB when it issued Citation # 107 NLRB 837; NLRB v Teamsters, 225 F. 2d. 343. On page 19 the Supreme Court said, “In 1954, the NLRB ruled that seniority status in mergers must be resolved by agreement between the employer and the union, not by the union unilaterally.â€￾

As with the last time you badly misstated the law and posted the exact same misinformation:

As usual with legal issues, your understanding is completely wrong, as aquagreen explained. First, the Supreme Court had nothing to do with this case. It was an NLRB decision which was appealed to the Second Circuit Court of Appeals, and ended there. The Board (what you referred to as the "lower court") did find against the union, but the seniority provision portion of Board's decision was not overturned by the appeals court.

Your ignorance about basic civil procedure aside, your reading is also way off base concerning what the Teamsters case stands for substantively. It does not, as you imply, stand for the proposition that a union cannot resolve seniority disputes and that the employer must somehow be involved in the process. Rather, the key to understanding the case is to realize that the issue there was that the seniority list the union came up with was illegal under the NLRA in the first place. The case states that a CBA provision permitting a union to resolve senoirity disputes is not enforceable when it might result in a seniority list that violates the NLRA. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe that is the issue right now with the LCC pilots -- there is no CBA provision in either the East or West contracts which says, "In the event of a seniority dispute, ALPA will determine the outcome." (Additionally, Teamsters did not have to do with a merger of two companies' lists -- another distinction from the present matter.)

Even if there is such language, don't forget the key to undertanding the Teamsters case: the list itself violated the NLRA. In Teamsters, the seniority list was illegal under the NLRA because it discriminated on the basis of union membership. In that case, some employees were not union members when they began working for the employer, but joined the union later. The union based seniority for those people on when they joined the union, rather than on the beginning of their employment,. The Board, later affirmed the Second Circuit, found that violated the NLRA because it illegally encouraged union membership in violation of the NLRA and discriminated on the basis of union membership.

Now, where the Teamsters case may be able to help East (and which USA320pilot seems to have missed) is that it does vaguely stand for the proposition that when a union is going to merge seniority lists, it should do so based on DOH. However, the case is really only on point when the union's choice is to merge lists on the basis of date of hire OR on some basis that violates the NLRA (or, by logical extension, the RLA, unless there is some RLA case out there stating something different). The case does NOT say that when the choice is date of hire OR some other method that does NOT violate the NLRA, date of hire should still be used. The NLRB and the courts got involved not because the union did not use DOH to determine seniority, but rather because it used an illegal method. In other words, Teamsters appears to leave a union free to determine other, non-DOH bases for determining seniority, as long as the NLRA (or RLA) is not violated. Therefore, if East is going to hang its hat on this case, it would have to argue that the Nicolau award violated the RLA. I don't see how they will do that.

 

[Phoenix]

No such thing as an NMB Investigator nor NMB Attorney General.

NMB Organizational Chart

And now that you are promoting another union, your boy Garland will have to stop leaking info to you.

I can't wait to send the MEC your letter.

Just sent this to Arnie, and the rest of the Communication Reps and Webmaster, guess you will hear from them soon!

You sent a "letter" off of a message forum signed by USA320. What do you expect to happen now? Is Arnie supposed to pick a screen name and join this forum to chastise USA320? 🙄

 

[EastUS]

Part of me almost wants to see the above scenario play out because I am pretty sure that a new contract negotiated by this USAPA would have a hard time passing in a vote if this union was forced on the pilots of AWA. I don't see any AWA pilots agreeing to agency shop rules or paying any dues to this new organization if they are forced upon the west and if you combine that with the typical "vote no" crowds around the airline industry then the chances of obtaining a new combined contract is pretty slim IMO.

Hey EastUS, you seem like you are pretty tired of the ALPA crowd around AAA and National. You going to run for a leadership position at USAPA?

Nope. I'll definately vote for decert, and be willing to help at grassroots levels, but I'm only still "here" for the sky and the people I get to fly with...."politics", of whatever sort, generally make me retch. I cannot imagine a more workable definition of Hell than to be forced to actually converse with the likes of AWA320/US320/767Jetz/many Alpoid types hereabouts/etc in the same room, and with any degree of pretended civility, when I could otherwise be admiring cloudscapes....or hitting myself with a hammer for that matter.

Then too, as put perfectly by Marx (Groucho🙂 "I wouldn't want to join any club that would have me as a member" 😉

 

[Tiger 1050]

"Yeah I must admit I am truely surprised at the stupidity considering their superior "experience" level."

Don't be. There's a different "world" within which the career Alpo sorts exist that's hardly reflective of line pilots in any way. Nothing that springs forth from Alpo people surprises or shocks me in any fashion anymore.

I suppose you are correct.


Good day little children...

 

[Tiger 1050]

After discussing with an USAPA Officer

Regards,

USA320Pilot

I guess you guys got the charter then? Great! Now when are you going to vote ALPA off the property? 🙄

...Yeah that's what I thought. :down:

 

[EastUS]

I guess you guys got the charter then? Great! Now when are you going to vote ALPA off the property? 🙄

...Yeah that's what I thought. :down:

Want to start a pool?