ALPA offers MDA pilots $1Million

[ussnark]

... trump a judge's verdict on statements of fact used by the arbitrator, when the arbitrator had no responsibility or authority to make a determination about the accuracy of the separate seniority lists in the first place?

My understanding from the AWA MEC chairman is that the arbitrator chose amongst several, if not many lists.

If true, that might require revision of the quoted statement by you.

 

[Phoenix]

The APL MDA pilots were on the AAA main list so they were in Nicolau's purview by default...

ALPA's biggest dilemma that they have ever faced is that they have to come up with enough money to payoff "Junior" pilots to hose themselves.

Yes. ALPA represented the MDA pilots. That is obvious. That is part of the point.

MDA pilots had a dispute with ALPA concerning their status as Mainline. However, MDA pilots did NOT submit to Nicolau with respect to arbitrating that dispute between them and ALPA. ALPA has a conflict of interest and CANNOT submit the MDA pilots for arbitration of that dispute as a subordinate issue to be subsumed by the merger process arbitration.

If ALPA presumed to submit the MDA pilots for that purpose then they are culpable and Nicolau's ruling is invalidated, if his award included a determination of that dispute.

On the other hand, if ALPA agrees that MDA pilots are in fact Mainline (as they have done previously on numerous occasions) and maintains that they told Nicolau as much, then they are forced to observe that Nicolau failed to adhere to the facts as presented by ALPA and that his award is invalid.

Regardless of how ALPA wants to try to step out of the line of fire... No matter what decision ALPA takes to defend themselves... their action will by definition oppose the Nicolau award.

The easiest way out for ALPA is to payoff the MDA pilots to agree that they never were Mainline pilots. But that presents ALPA with a problem they have not faced before.

This most interesting dilemma was already mentioned by EMBFA. The most junior pilots, who have been sold down the river many times by the senior, now appear to have the most sure legal footing to stop Nicolau's award.

The East pilots are adamant that Nicolau's award will not be established so it is in their interest to support the position of the MDA pilots. But even if they opposed the MDA pilots, you can't payoff the senior pilots to hose the junior pilots, because in this situation ALPA must payoff the Junior pilots to agree to their own hosing.

ALPA's biggest dilemma that they have ever faced is that they have to come up with enough money to payoff "Junior" pilots to hose themselves.

My understanding from the AWA MEC chairman is that the arbitrator chose amongst several, if not many lists.

If true, that might require revision of the quoted statement by you.

Does ALPA agree that they presented "several if not many lists" to Nicolau, and that they pledged to accept Nicolau's ruling on which seniority lists was the "real" ones from which he would then decide how to join the two?

Did MDA pilots agree to have Nicolau arbitrate their dispute with ALPA concerning their status as Mainline USAir pilots?

 

[ussnark]

Does ALPA agree that they presented "several if not many lists" to Nicolau, and that they pledged to accept Nicolau's ruling on which seniority lists was the "real" ones from which he would then decide how to join the two?

Did MDA pilots agree to have Nicolau arbitrate their dispute with ALPA concerning their status as Mainline USAir pilots?

I am treating each group as separate so please clarify what you mean when you reference "ALPA". Are you talking about ALPA Natl, ALPA AAA Merger Comm., A&W merger Comm., ALPA MDA?

I think some of the reasons you and your ignorant friends get tripped up over your own feet is because you toss "ALPA" on a post and expect everyone to understand which part you are talking about.

I would hope one of the lists from which Nicolau had to choose included the MDA (as well as intervening furloughed pilots).

We are talking two issues here.

One, how relative seniority would be determined, if used. By choosing a list that would enhance the A&W juniority, Nicolau provided a windfall.

The other issue concerns DOH with conditions and restrictions, which, to my knowledge, has not been addressed. Should the "award" be tossed, I would like complete consideration of the DOH with conditions and restrictions.

 

[exB717Flyer]

ALPA has a conflict of interest and CANNOT submit the MDA pilots for arbitration of that dispute as a subordinate issue to be subsumed by the merger process arbitration.

There's no mechanism for the whole USAirways list to be segregated into MDA and non-MDA. Nicolau had to merge the two lists and I don't think he gave a crud about any lawsuits. The process had to proceed regardless of any disputes.

 

[Junebug172]

Wy didn't the east file their suit in a Federal Court?

 

[Phoenix]

I am treating each group as separate so please clarify what you mean when you reference "ALPA". Are you talking about ALPA Natl, ALPA AAA Merger Comm., A&W merger Comm., ALPA MDA?

I think some of the reasons you and your ignorant friends get tripped up over your own feet is because you toss "ALPA" on a post and expect everyone to understand which part you are talking about.

When I said "ALPA" I was referring to any governing body of ALPA that has the responsibility to vouch for the seniority and status of the MDA pilots, at all times that MDA pilots exist, but especially during arguments to the arbitrator.

I would hope one of the lists from which Nicolau had to choose...

One of the [multiple] lists?

For Nicolau to choose from?

You repeatedly affirm that 1)the MDA pilot's seniority and status was not established by ALPA prior to the Nicolau arbitration, and 2) that Nicolau decided what their status was as part of his arbitration award.


Is that the point are you trying to make.

 

[Phoenix]

There's no mechanism for the whole USAirways list to be segregated into MDA and non-MDA.

Of course not. They were all part of the Mainline seniority list and were active Mainline pilots. Many of them were very junior to others on the same list that had voluntarily remained on furlough rather than accept recall to Mainline.

Nicolau had to merge the two lists...

Of course he did. And ALPA provided him with the two lists, and the AAA list showed that MDA pilots were active Mainline employees? Or did it not?


You are in violent agreement.

 

[ussnark]

When I said "ALPA" I was referring to any governing body of ALPA that has the responsibility to vouch for the seniority and status of the MDA pilots, at all times that MDA pilots exist, but especially during arguments to the arbitrator.

Perhaps, to avoid further confusion, you might wish to be more specific, it is the AAA MEC merger committee in this case.

One of the [multiple] lists?

For Nicolau to choose from?

I was told by the east merger committee that there were several lists. It is speculation on my part that one would have included the MDA pilots, and if it did, it should also include all the furloughees between.

You repeatedly affirm that 1)the MDA pilot's seniority and status was not established by ALPA prior to the Nicolau arbitration, and 2) that Nicolau decided what their status was as part of his arbitration award.
Is that the point are you trying to make.

I am sorry, I believe you are misattributing what was said. I never stated nor implied that the MDA seniority or status was not established prior. In my mind, they have always been on the list. The FAA says so and even, for about a year, ALPA said so. The company tried to keep them separate and at one point the FAA came in and asserted that they were on the mainline.

I never stated that Nicholau "decided" anything. Guided by ?, he picked a list, apparently. Assuming he is rational, had he understood what was happening with the MDA folks, I am certain the "award", though still wrong, would have been quite different.

Relative seniority is wrong and will not work, sorry.

 

[exB717Flyer]

And ALPA provided him with the two lists, and the AAA list showed that MDA pilots were active Mainline employees? Or did it not?

It did. And the West MEC formally objected. We were told there's no mechanism to protest said list and that if necessary the arbitrator would make the final determination. And he did.

 

[Phoenix]

Perhaps, to avoid further confusion, you might wish to be more specific, it is the AAA MEC merger committee in this case.

Why let AAA MEC or National off the hook? They all have the responsibility to correct the errors of subordinate bodies of ALPA or they are complicit.

I was told by the east merger committee that there were several lists.

If ALPA didn't have one accurate list of the AAA pilots and one accurate list for AWA then how did Nicolau limit his arbitration to the issue to which they agreed, namely the merging of the two lists?

I am sorry, I believe you are misattributing what was said. I never stated nor implied that the MDA seniority or status was not established prior. In my mind, they have always been on the list. The FAA says so and even, for about a year, ALPA said so. The company tried to keep them separate and at one point the FAA came in and asserted that they were on the mainline.

Of course they were active Mainline pilots. ALPA has not defended them as such and Nicolau did not view them as such in his award.

I never stated that Nicholau "decided" anything. Guided by ?, he picked a list, apparently. Assuming he is rational, had he understood what was happening with the MDA folks, I am certain the "award", though still wrong, would have been quite different.

Bravo!

Relative seniority is wrong and will not work, sorry.

That is a question regarding the method that Nicolau used to merge the list. That is a totally distinct question from ascertaining if Nicolau had an accurate list for each of the two parties that agreed to binding arbitration. His method of merging is immaterial if he didn't even have an accurate list. Even worse is the possibility that he presumed the authority to determine the status of MDA pilots without their consent to have him arbitrate that dispute. MDA and ALPA were not the parties submitting to arbitration. It was AAA and AWA.

 

[Phoenix]

It did. And the West MEC formally objected. We were told there's no mechanism to protest said list and that if necessary the arbitrator would make the final determination. And he did.

Yes he did. Good point.

What makes you comfortable with an Arbitrator determining the accurate seniority list and status of AAA pilots (in contradiction to ALPA's certified list) when none of the AAA pilots submitted to the arbitrator for that purpose?

Of course there was a mechanism to protest it. But it was accurate and certified so a protest would be pointless. What makes you comfortable with it being subverted by the arbitrator, or with ALPA now being complicit to its subversion?

 

[flynomore]

Yes he did. Good point.

[snipage] What makes you comfortable with it being subverted by the arbitrator, or with ALPA now being complicit to its subversion?

=====================================================

The answer is because it gave some the outcome they desired. Principles be damned.

No one wants to admit that for some strange reason though.

 

[ussnark]

Why let AAA MEC or National off the hook? They all have the responsibility to correct the errors of subordinate bodies of ALPA or they are complicit.

I could not agree more. I was simply addressing the responsibility for presenting valid lists.

If ALPA didn't have one accurate list of the AAA pilots and one accurate list for AWA then how did Nicolau limit his arbitration to the issue to which they agreed, namely the merging of the two lists?

I wonder if he "arbitrated" the accuracy of the lists.

Of course they were active Mainline pilots. ALPA has not defended them as such and Nicolau did not view them as such in his award.

Actually, I think ALPA did, for a one year or so period, defend the MDA dudes/dudettes as active mainline pilots. The lawsuit may have been about the switcheroo. I wonder if the westie dudes have any idea what they are buying into.

That is a question regarding the method that Nicolau used to merge the list. That is a totally distinct question from ascertaining if Nicolau had an accurate list for each of the two parties that agreed to binding arbitration. His method of merging is immaterial if he didn't even have an accurate list. Even worse is the possibility that he presumed the authority to determine the status of MDA pilots without their consent to have him arbitrate that dispute. MDA and ALPA were not the parties submitting to arbitration. It was AAA and AWA.

Totally agree. My decision to toss that in the mix was to forstall any attempt to end run my feelings that relative seniority is wrong. Sorry if you thought I was OT.

 

[Junebug172]

I can tell you why they didn't file it in federal court. Because they would have been laughed right out of the system!

And why D.C.? Because they're stalling. If this ever makes it anywhere, the judge is going to throw it right out and fine the lawyers for wasting his time.

Nice job wasting your money. I've spoken with some east guys who get it and they know its an idiotic move designed only to appease the goons.

 

[ussnark]

I can tell you why they didn't file it in federal court. Because they would have been laughed right out of the system!

And why D.C.? Because they're stalling. If this ever makes it anywhere, the judge is going to throw it right out and fine the lawyers for wasting his time.

Nice job wasting your money. I've spoken with some east guys who get it and they know its an idiotic move designed only to appease the goons.

Why would one file something in Federal Court when the jurisdiction is in PHL?

Hey, by the way. As a girl, you may wish to consider having your mustache surgically removed, in my opinion.